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You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

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You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.
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Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Maybe I should be in favor of a Palestinian state, just so the leftists can finally see for themselves how utterly incompetent and warmongering the Palestinian leadership is. Why all this bullshit theoretical talk, let's put that "peaceful Palestine if no occupation" theory to the test.

I know I know, I'd be betraying my own values of not giving in to the demands of crazy Islamists, but I'm tempted to support that initiative, just this once, if it can prove that the Palestinian violence is not caused by the occupation, but by the desire to destroy Israel. Maybe after the Israeli occupation is finally lifted and there's a sovereign nation of Palestine that still elects fanatics like Hamas, that still supports suicide bombings, rocket attacks etc. against Israel, that still indoctrinates children to hate all Jews - Will the left finally admit they were wrong on this issue and that you simply cannot negotiate with savages and terrorists?

Or will they find some other excuse? Will they expect the entire state of Israel to "self-destruct" or relocate somewhere else on Earth?

Probably...


What do you think? :lol:
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:32 am
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

I accept your deal.

You support the two-state solution and I'll admit I was wrong about the Palestinians if the solution fails.
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:55 am
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bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

So, you're going to support something that you personally are convinced will fail and so (presumably) lead to further violence and death for these people, just to prove your point? This seems to imply that you either don't care about these people as opposed to being proven right, or that you're not sincere in this post/position.
Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:59 am
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Only a twisted mind can say that Palestinian violence has nothing to do with Israel's occupation and annexation of Palestinian land.

This issue has nothing to do with your feeble left/right political paradigm.

Israelis won their nation through a terrorism campaign. What's the difference between the two sides? Besides the Palestinians being mostly Muslims, that is...
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:49 am
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

bluejatheist, sometimes you need to let people make the wrong decision so they can see the error of their ways. Right now there are a lot of pro-Palestine activists marching all over the world, chanting "Free Free Palestine", waving Palestinian flags, in some cases even chanting "We are all Hamas". Much of that support will crumble once they are shown the dark side of the Palestinian leadership and they can no longer blame it on an occupation (unless of course they believe that the very existence of Israel is an "occupation").


Prolescum wrote:Only a twisted mind can say that Palestinian violence has nothing to do with Israel's occupation and annexation of Palestinian land.

This issue has nothing to do with your feeble left/right political paradigm.


Except that almost all the pro-Palestinian activists I've seen are on the left. The impression I got is that they are just deluded kids who see America/Israel/West as the cause for all the conflict in the world and that if America/Israel/West could be dislodged from its position of power the world would suddenly be such a peaceful place. :roll:


Prolescum wrote:Israelis won their nation through a terrorism campaign. What's the difference between the two sides? Besides the Palestinians being mostly Muslims, that is...


The Palestinians might as well be militant atheists, I'm sick of their suicide bombings, I'm sick of their refusal to compromise, I'm sick of their rocket attacks, I'm sick of their unrealistic demands that all the region be made into a Palestinian state. Internally, they treat other Palestinians badly (women, gays, apostates, political dissidents) so that doesn't help their case either. Their human rights record is far worse than Israel's.

But the again, if these were atheists they probably wouldn't go about it the same way. Maybe they'd realize that 65 years of conflict is just not worth it when your life is so short and you need to compromise. (Maybe... I'm not making any guarantees, but it's pretty clear their nationalism is fueled by Islam.)


Second, okay let's assume that all of what happened in 1948 is primarily the fault of Israel (ignoring that it was the neighboring nations, not Israel, who started that war and refused the 1947 partition plan - yup there was your two-state solution). So what? You're out of your mind if you think you can make an entire country with 6 million Jews disappear. And that's why I think the Palestinian cause is insane. They need to learn to live with it. Should USA give land back to the Native Americans?

But hey, go for it, let's see just how peaceful Palestine will be as an independent state with no occupation.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:53 pm
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:26 pm
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ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Dogma's Demise wrote:Right now there are a lot of pro-Palestine activists marching all over the world, chanting "Free Free Palestine"


...because Palestinians are suffering under an illegal occupation...

waving Palestinian flags


...to show solidarity, let the Palestinians that they are not alone

in some cases even chanting "We are all Hamas".


There is neither plural nor collective noun for George Galloway.

Much of that support will crumble once they are shown the dark side of the Palestinian leadership and they can no longer blame it on an occupation (unless of course they believe that the very existence of Israel is an "occupation").


Once again, as per usual, you are guilty of conflating two separate things; the support given to Palestinians under occupation, and the Hamas administration in Gaza. You can support an oppressed people and not their representatives at the same time. You, being from a former Eastern bloc country, and probably old enough to remember, should understand this.

I am pro-Palestine, not anti-Israel. Or is that too complex for you?

Prolescum wrote:Only a twisted mind can say that Palestinian violence has nothing to do with Israel's occupation and annexation of Palestinian land.

This issue has nothing to do with your feeble left/right political paradigm.


Except that almost all the pro-Palestinian activists I've seen are on the left.


Weasel words. "Almost all"? "I've seen"? Weak sauce.

It isn't a left/right issue, it isn't an economic issue, it isn't a political philosophy issue.

The impression I got is that they are just deluded kids who see America/Israel/West as the cause for all the conflict in the world and that if America/Israel/West could be dislodged from its position of power the world would suddenly be such a peaceful place. :roll:


Then you're willfully mis-informed (not surprising at all). Am I just a deluded kid who sees America, Israel, and the west as the cause for all the conflict in the world?

Prolescum wrote:Israelis won their nation through a terrorism campaign. What's the difference between the two sides? Besides the Palestinians being mostly Muslims, that is...


The Palestinians might as well be militant atheists


Eh? "Militant atheists" don't exist.

I'm sick of their suicide bombings


I imagine because they make your garden messy. I must say, I didn't realise they were doing that so far north.

I'm sick of their refusal to compromise


But not Israel's refusal to compromise or keep to the agreements when they did? Interesting...

You're pretty silent on the whole "we will not build any new settlements in Palestinian territory" while building new settlements in Palestinian territory issue.

I'm sick of their rocket attacks


Yeah, we all prefer airstrikes and tanks bulldozering schools, hostpitals, and homes.

I'm sick of their unrealistic demands


...like Israel stick to its agreements. Totally unrealistic, given its history.

that all the region be made into a Palestinian state.


The pre-1967 borders Israel agreed to but never kept.

Internally, they treat other Palestinians badly (women, gays, apostates, political dissidents) so that doesn't help their case either.


...and is essentially irrelevant to the subject at hand. Yes, I know you brought it up to gain sympathy for your position with the soft lefties because human rights are a cause celebre for them.

Their human rights record is far worse than Israel's.


You really don't want to get into a list-based argument on this topic; Israel loses by an bum-watering margin. Illegal occupations, illegal annexations, illegal settlements, freight restrictions, unsanctioned nuclear armaments...

But the again, if these were atheists they probably wouldn't go about it the same way.


No, they'd all be singing and dancing with flowers in their hair... Come on people now, smile on your brother everybody get together, try to love one another right now!

Maybe they'd realize that 65 years of conflict is just not worth it when your life is so short and you need to compromise.


Compromise requires both parties to participate, not one to dictate and one to capitulate.

(Maybe... I'm not making any guarantees, but it's pretty clear their nationalism is fueled by Islam.)


Clear to whom? You and a few fruit loops?

You are aware that Israel exists purely because of the Jewish faith are you not? Oh, they're not Muslims so it doesn't matter, right? :lol:

Second, okay let's assume that all of what happened in 1948 is primarily the fault of Israel (ignoring that it was the neighboring nations, not Israel, who started that war and refused the 1947 partition plan - yup there was your two-state solution).


Not Israel, Zionists. Whoops, you forgot that there were Orthodox Jews, as is obvious from the above. Israel's genesis stretches further back than 1947, cupcake.

So what? You're out of your mind if you think you can make an entire country with 6 million Jews disappear.


No one does, straw boy.

And that's why I think the Palestinian cause is insane.


Because of your straw man? loolzorz.

They need to learn to live with it.


They have lived with it as a reality for some time, my fantasy-driven yum-yum.

Should USA give land back to the Native Americans?


They did. To those few who were left.

But hey, go for it, let's see just how peaceful Palestine will be as an independent state with no occupation.


Yes, let's see what happens to a country when constant artillery bombardment ceases and they are free to rebuild their nation.
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:24 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Call me a cynic, but I don't think DD is arguing from a position of knowing anything.

I support the people of Palestein and their right to not have their borders annexed by Israel "just because". This does not make me an anti-Semite or a supporter of Hamas.

Easy, innit?
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Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:07 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Ah this again? Look I'm gonna make it quick:

1. Being pro-Palestine and pro-Israel at the same time:

Yes, you can be, in theory. In practice an unconditional support of the Palestinian side would create problems for the Israeli side, given that the main ruling bodies in the PNA (Fatah and Hamas) both have expressed a desire to abolish the Jewish state and establish a purely Palestinian one, read their statements, watch some of the stuff that gets broadcast on Palestinian media. Then you have Hamas' support for terrorism which again is a problem.

There's a reason why the Israeli don't trust them with their own state. But like I said, I'm gonna entertain this idea if that's what it takes to make you see the error of your ways. Go ahead, give them their state and see where that takes you.

2. Israelis not accepting compromise:

I don't see how this can be true. Remember they DID accept the 1947 partition plan, while the Arab leaders did not. If both sides had accepted, you'd already have two states.

There was also Camp David Summit in 2000, Arafat could have gotten Gaza, the vast majority of West Bank and compensation for 1948 Palestinian refugees (strangely nobody wants to talk about the Jewish refugees who fled Islamic countries and ended up in Israel).

3. The comparison with Romania:

The communist dictatorship first of all was imposed on us by a foreign power. We didn't choose it. And when we grew strong enough we overthrew it. Hamas was formed by Palestinians and has the support (according to the 2006 elections) of almost half of Palestinians. There is, to my knowledge, no significant resistance to the way the PNA is run today, no calls for reform. If there is a significant group of Palestinians who think "wait a minute, this is wrong and unproductive, we oppose terrorism, we want to make peace with Israel, we need to drop the unrealistic pretense of one day controlling the entire region, our leaders have failed us for almost 65 years" they have obviously been driven so far underground they are largely irrelevant.

Even the pro-Palestinian activists in the West, the kind who HAVE the freedom to openly criticize the PNA refrain from doing so and focus 99% of the time on Israel's actions. Why is that?

I've never ONCE seen CAIR and all those other Islamofascists pretending to be Americans criticize the way the PNA is run. Always Israel this, Israel that, Israel BAD! Free Palestine! ZOMG apartheid!

4. Islam not having any part to play in fueling Palestinian nationalism:

WRONG! The Palestinian leaders constantly quote Islamic scripture and their soldiers constantly shout "Allahu Akbar!" as they carry out their insanity.

The entire region was once part of the Ottoman Empire (which was an Islamic Caliphate) and in Islam, once the territory becomes under the control of Islam it must stay that way forever at all costs, they see it as defensive jihad, a divine obligation they must carry out without question, without compromise. Why do you think their ultimate goal is to one day destroy the Israeli state?

It's not just Israel, sometimes you will find Muslims who express a desire to take back most of Spain because it was once part of a caliphate.

Not to say there's no offensive jihad as well, there is (despite what the apologists will tell you) but we're not talking about that now.


Now you might say, "well don't all human beings want to defend their land"? No, usually not with the same fanaticism, black-and-white, "all or nothing" of the Islamic jihad. If Romanians for example followed a similar doctrine, we'd now be waging war on Moldova and several other territories to restore the Romania between the two World Wars. Now what would you say if tomorrow most of the Romanian establishment started supporting a war to abolish the Moldovan state and make it part of Romania because it was so a lifetime ago? You'd say we were out of our minds and we need to let it go.

You can go further than that, let's say we were doing it by suicide bombings on civilian targets and our media was filled with indoctrination of children to become martyrs for the cause... Sound familiar?


Another thing you fail to see. Why are Israel's neighbors so supportive of Palestinians? Why do they care? Well it's because of Ummah. They see themselves (Muslims) as one community. It's not really about who's right or wrong, it's just that Palestinians are overwhelmingly Muslim and Israelis aren't.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:35 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

In this episode, DD fails to see the point everyone has been making.
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Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:01 pm
WarKChat ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 1199Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

australopithecus wrote:In this episode, DD fails to see the point everyone has been making.


oh great, a rerun
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:18 pm
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

australopithecus wrote:In this episode, DD fails to see the point everyone has been making.


If this was Facebook, I would "like" that.
Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:54 pm
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ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

australopithecus wrote:In this episode, DD fails to see the point everyone has been making.


Arf.

Dogma's Demise wrote:Ah this again?


'Tis your thread.

Look I'm gonna make it quick


Doubtful.

1. Being pro-Palestine and pro-Israel at the same time:


I didn't say I was pro-Palestine and pro-Israel, I said I was pro-Palestinian, not anti-Israel. Israel is there, that will not change.

Yes, you can be, in theory. In practice an unconditional support of the Palestinian side


Who said unconditional? Oh right, no one. If you put words in my mouth, don't be surprised that they're spat back in your face.

...would create problems for the Israeli side, given that the main ruling bodies in the PNA (Fatah and Hamas) both have expressed a desire to abolish the Jewish state and establish a purely Palestinian one


I love how much you omit as if members here are the rubes you talk to on YouTube.

read their statements


Clearly you're unfamiliar with the tactics of diplomatic negotiation... Bravado isn't exclusive to you, sugar.

watch some of the stuff that gets broadcast on Palestinian media


Watch some of the stuff promulgated by Zionists (Jewish and otherwise). Well, it does look like you might already.

Then you have Hamas' support for terrorism which again is a problem.


I refer you to the earlier statement on Israel's birth. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

There's a reason why the Israeli don't trust them with their own state.


There are dozens of reasons why the rest of the world doesn't trust Israel to deal with it on their own.

But like I said, I'm gonna entertain this idea if that's what it takes to make you see the error of your ways. Go ahead, give them their state and see where that takes you.


Lol, you have no idea how much your hubris entertains me. The side of peace, reason, and amicable relations between all men is the right one; petty prejudiced arguments like yours do nothing but sate briefly the holes burned through you by nagging inadequacies.

2. Israelis not accepting compromise:

I don't see how this can be true.


Your personal incredulity does not matter a jot.

Remember they DID accept the 1947 partition plan, while the Arab leaders did not.


Ah, so we're not just talking about Palestinians, the PLA, Fatah and Hamas, but all Arab leaders? Same difference, they're all sand niggers, right?

If both sides had accepted, you'd already have two states.


I think it's endearing that you never look at details. Daft, but endearing.

There was also Camp David Summit in 2000, Arafat could have gotten Gaza, the vast majority of West Bank and compensation for 1948 Palestinian refugees (strangely nobody wants to talk about the Jewish refugees who fled Islamic countries and ended up in Israel).


So all the blame lies with Arafat? Those refugees haven't been mentioned because they're irrelevant.

3. The comparison with Romania:

The communist dictatorship first of all was imposed on us by a foreign power.


The restrictions on Palestinian movements, freight, air and sea are imposed by a foreign power. They are, ironically, ghettoed.

We didn't choose it.


Palestinians didn't choose it.

And when we grew strong enough we overthrew it.


Lol. I love you in all manner of platonic ways.

Hamas was formed by Palestinians and has the support (according to the 2006 elections) of almost half of Palestinians. There is, to my knowledge, no significant resistance to the way the PNA is run today, no calls for reform.


I'd wager that the formation of various political parties is the last thing on your mind when you're struggling to feed your children or protect them from airstrikes. In fact, I'd put money on the guess that they'll vote for anyone who promises to stop Israel from killing them. Arafat and Fatah failed, so they chose the alternative.

If there is a significant group of Palestinians who think "wait a minute, this is wrong and unproductive, we oppose terrorism, we want to make peace with Israel, we need to drop the unrealistic pretense of one day controlling the entire region, our leaders have failed us for almost 65 years" they have obviously been driven so far underground they are largely irrelevant.


Ever heard the (para)phrase to know a man, you must walk in his shoes? A friend of mine regularly talks to Palestinians and Israelis both who do not agree with their respective governments' policies. Your confirmation bias has been pointed out and laughed at many times here, what is it that makes you think that will change?

Even the pro-Palestinian activists in the West, the kind who HAVE the freedom to openly criticize the PNA refrain from doing so and focus 99% of the time on Israel's actions. Why is that?


It's a matter of degree, and they do talk about them; people like you rarely listen.

I've never ONCE seen CAIR and all those other Islamofascists pretending to be Americans criticize the way the PNA is run.


Lol, as if there were a gold standard to "being American".

Always Israel this, Israel that, Israel BAD! Free Palestine! ZOMG apartheid!


Hmm. Handmade grenades vs military. Israel has nuclear weaponry contrary to international laws; Israel annexes land contrary to international laws; Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank, contrary to international laws; Israel built a wall surrounding Palestinian territory (annexing more land) contrary to international laws.

Palestinians blow themselves up in desperation and fire rockets impotently over a wall. Oh yeah, they also throw rocks and cans at soldiers.

4. Islam not having any part to play in fueling Palestinian nationalism:


No one said it had no part to play. Jesus nut-butter Christ!

WRONG!


Du-nu-du-nu-du-nu-du-nu-STRAWMAN!

The Palestinian leaders constantly quote Islamic scripture and their soldiers constantly shout "Allahu Akbar!" as they carry out their insanity.


...and at least one company in the US inscribed bible quotes on bullets. If you stuggle with the depth of this statement, tough.

The entire region was once part of the Ottoman Empire (which was an Islamic Caliphate)


Yes, history is taught in schools here too.

and in Islam, once the territory becomes under the control of Islam it must stay that way forever at all costs, they see it as defensive jihad, a divine obligation they must carry out without question, without compromise.


Israel was promised to the Jews by God itself. What's your point?

Why do you think their ultimate goal is to one day destroy the Israeli state?


Ishmael?

It's not just Israel, sometimes you will find Muslims who express a desire to take back most of Spain because it was once part of a caliphate.


I find it hilarious how easily the loons on the fringe believe the loons on the opposite fringe.

Not to say there's no offensive jihad as well, there is (despite what the apologists will tell you) but we're not talking about that now.


Because you've already let slip that, like every conversation you have it seems, it's really about expressing your dislike of Muslims.

Now you might say, "well don't all human beings want to defend their land"? No, usually not with the same fanaticism, black-and-white, "all or nothing" of the Islamic jihad.


Wot? How many times must one simply write the word Israel?

If Romanians for example followed a similar doctrine, we'd now be waging war on Moldova and several other territories to restore the Romania between the two World Wars. Now what would you say if tomorrow most of the Romanian establishment started supporting a war to abolish the Moldovan state and make it part of Romania because it was so a lifetime ago? You'd say we were out of our minds and we need to let it go.


Ahem... Israel.

You can go further than that


Do we have to? I've already tolerated your fantasies and what-ifs enough this year.

let's say we were doing it by suicide bombings on civilian targets and our media was filled with indoctrination of children to become martyrs for the cause... Sound familiar?


*Yawn*

Another thing you fail to see. Why are Israel's neighbors so supportive of Palestinians?


Being humans, it's likely there are many reasons. I don't expect you to accept that because your simpleton-eye-view is blind to subtlety.

Why do they care? Well it's because of Ummah.


Yep, it has nothing to do with, say, off the top of my head, the repatriation of Palestinian refugees.

So if Muslims support Palestinians it's because of Ummah, if someone in the western world supports the Palestinians they're dumb kids or lefties? You crack me up.

They see themselves (Muslims) as one community.


Humanity is one community. We don't abandon our own because they make mistakes.

It's not really about who's right or wrong, it's just that Palestinians are overwhelmingly Muslim and Israelis aren't.


Your transparent bias against Muslims does you no favours.

But you're right, it's not about who's right or wrong anymore, it's just time to fucking stop it.
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:03 pm
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Dogma's Demise wrote:bluejatheist, sometimes you need to let people make the wrong decision so they can see the error of their ways. Right now there are a lot of pro-Palestine activists marching all over the world, chanting "Free Free Palestine", waving Palestinian flags, in some cases even chanting "We are all Hamas". Much of that support will crumble once they are shown the dark side of the Palestinian leadership and they can no longer blame it on an occupation (unless of course they believe that the very existence of Israel is an "occupation").


My point still stands that you'd favor what you'd believe to be a costly regime that could spark a major conflict if it were then opposed, just to see if you're right or wrong. Sounds just as logical as the secular movements in the U.S. allowing a theocracy to be put in place just to show it's bad. They'd be proved right while losing everything else.

--

Speaking of Israel and Palestine, I noticed on my go-to gory news website that there were two back-to-back stories. One about the eviscerated corpses of Hamas leaders being pulled out of vehicles destroyed by Israeli drone strikes. The other was about a handful of people who collaborated with Israel in Palestine being thrown out of a van and shot in their heads, to be dragged through the streets by the people. Seems like both sides are composed of assholes and innocents being killed over sandy dirt (In the words of Carl Sagan, for a fraction of a dot). Silly humans.
Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:17 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Well what do you know, complaining about strawman while doing the exact same thing. Prolescum you have seriously distorted some of what I said earlier, for example:

"3. The comparison with Romania:

The communist dictatorship first of all was imposed on us by a foreign power."

You said:

The restrictions on Palestinian movements, freight, air and sea are imposed by a foreign power. They are, ironically, ghettoed.


I was talking about the Palestinian leaders obviously, you know, the ones who for decades have been virulently anti-Israel.


Anyway you did say something I'm going to use in my favor:

I didn't say I was pro-Palestine and pro-Israel, I said I was pro-Palestinian, not anti-Israel. Israel is there, that will not change.


You know I love how you say you're "pro-Palestinian". :lol: You do realize that as an open atheist you wouldn't last two seconds under an Islamic government.

But moving past that, so you're pro-Palestinian but indifferent to Israel? Hmmm...

Then you said:

Who said unconditional? Oh right, no one. If you put words in my mouth, don't be surprised that they're spat back in your face.


Well at least I got you to admit that your support for Palestine is not unconditional.

So under what conditions? Would you say for example that they should take action to marginalize terrorism? (Notice I'm not saying "eradicate" terrorism, there will always be some, the concern should be that the Palestinian establishment reject it utterly and prosecute it. And that would of course mean outlawing Hamas and all other terrorist groups.)


Another point you brought up:

Israel was promised to the Jews by God itself. What's your point?


That may be the case, but even an atheist Israeli I don't think would take too kindly to a bunch of Islamists demanding the abolition of Israel so they can establish an Islamic state in its place.

Secondly, which country did Israel take over to come into existence? (Hint: none) You'd have a point if there actually was a Palestinian state already there, but what it really was - territory under temporary British control following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:50 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2987Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Dogma's Demise,

I do not support Hamas, I do not support radical Islamic regimes, I do not agree with those who say Israel should be destroyed. My support lies wholly with those Palestinians and Israelis who wish to live in peace, without fear. Particularly those who have had their homes taken from them illegally by a foreign power. The Israeli occupation is illegal, and it ruins lives. I am against it for this reason alone. What exactly do you think is wrong with my position?

Laurens
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Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:26 am
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Laurens wrote:Dogma's Demise,

I do not support Hamas, I do not support radical Islamic regimes, I do not agree with those who say Israel should be destroyed. My support lies wholly with those Palestinians and Israelis who wish to live in peace, without fear. Particularly those who have had their homes taken from them illegally by a foreign power. The Israeli occupation is illegal, and it ruins lives. I am against it for this reason alone. What exactly do you think is wrong with my position?

Laurens


Just so we're clear, do you believe that all that's necessary for peace is for Israel to withdraw from West Bank and Gaza?
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:38 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Dogma's Demise wrote:You know I love how you say you're "pro-Palestinian". :lol: You do realize that as an open atheist you wouldn't last two seconds under an Islamic government.


Totally and utterly irrelevant. Maybe this time this'll sink through your skull; this is not about religion, it's not about left or right wing politics, it's not about warm fuzzy feels in your tummykins. It's about basic human dignity. A nation has the right not to have it's territory annexed and occupied. So what if atheism or apostasy is not tolerated in Palestine? That's a seperate issue for another time, it has no bearing on the validity of Proles argument.

But moving past that, so you're pro-Palestinian but indifferent to Israel? Hmmm...

Well at least I got you to admit that your support for Palestine is not unconditional.


He never said it was unconditional, that's an assumption you've made all by your lonesome.

So under what conditions? Would you say for example that they should take action to marginalize terrorism?


Well for a start, and this requires you grow a sense of perspective, they don't see themselves as terrorists. Would the French Resistance would see themselves as terrorists for attacking the occupying German forces in WWII (this is the part where the only thing you see is a comparison between Nazi Germany and Israel, amirite?) The solution then being that the occupying force needs removal, but given Israeli officials are as batshit insane as their Palestinian counterparts that will likely not happen.

That may be the case, but even an atheist Israeli I don't think would take too kindly to a bunch of Islamists demanding the abolition of Israel so they can establish an Islamic state in its place.


How about Israel just given the parts of Palestine they annexed back? How's that for a start?

Secondly, which country did Israel take over to come into existence? (Hint: none) You'd have a point if there actually was a Palestinian state already there, but what it really was - territory under temporary British control following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.


Which was originally the state of Palestine, as recognised throughout history. The fact that it was under British supervision after the fall of the Ottoman Empire does not change this. Many countries were under the protectorate of Britain, that didn't mean they magically stopped being states in their own right.
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Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:24 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Well for a start, and this requires you grow a sense of perspective, they don't see themselves as terrorists. Would the French Resistance would see themselves as terrorists for attacking the occupying German forces in WWII (this is the part where the only thing you see is a comparison between Nazi Germany and Israel, amirite?)


I'm pretty sure the French Resistance didn't go around preaching that Germans are apes and pigs or indoctrinating their own children they must become suicide bombers and kill Germans.

The solution then being that the occupying force needs removal, but given Israeli officials are as batshit insane as their Palestinian counterparts that will likely not happen.


And do you believe that will satisfy the Palestinian political establishment?

Do you believe that will make them stop firing rockets and supporting terrorism against Israel?

Which was originally the state of Palestine, as recognised throughout history.


This is false. There has never been a Palestinian state. You might be confusing it with Palestine, the region (between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River). Certainly it has switched hands many times over throughout history, been under various caliphates, but a Palestinian state? Nope. This distinct Palestinian identity is fairly new by the way and mainly a response to Zionism.

If you think there was such a state you need to give me a year period. When was a Palestinian state established and when did it fall? (And no, Mandatory Palestine doesn't count. It was a temporary entity, created by the British, until they could figure out what to do with that region, formerly under Ottoman Empire control.)

Many countries were under the protectorate of Britain.


Mandatory Palestine was not a Palestinian country under the protectorate of Britain. It was a British created entity meant to administer the territory. A real Palestinian state would have been created by that 1947 partition plan but that never worked.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:44 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: You know maybe I was wrong about Palestine.

Dogma's Demise wrote:I'm pretty sure the French Resistance didn't go around preaching that Germans are apes and pigs or indoctrinating their own children they must become suicide bombers and kill Germans.


Irrelevant appeal to emotion. Fact remains that parallels can be drawn with some validity

And do you believe that will satisfy the Palestinian political establishment?


I don't believe anything, the immediate issue is the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories and an end to that occupation is a step in the right direction. What happens after that, in this instance, is mere speculation.

Do you believe that will make them stop firing rockets and supporting terrorism against Israel?


I'm not clairvoyant.

This is false. There has never been a Palestinian state. You might be confusing it with Palestine, the region (between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River). Certainly it has switched hands many times over throughout history, been under various caliphates, but a Palestinian state? Nope. This distinct Palestinian identity is fairly new by the way and mainly a response to Zionism.


Get all your info from wiki, don't you. Almost word for word.....

Regardless of Palestinian geographic history, in 1947 the British mandate set clearly defined national borders for Palestine and Israel. Israel subsequently invaded and occupied Palestinian territory. What you seem to be implying is that because there is no historical national claim to Palestine that Israel is justified in annexing land, regardless of the consequences.

If you think there was such a state you need to give me a year period. When was a Palestinian state established and when did it fall? (And no, Mandatory Palestine doesn't count. It was a temporary entity, created by the British, until they could figure out what to do with that region, formerly under Ottoman Empire control.)


Again, irrelevant. The mandate set clearly defined boundaries which Israel ignored with it's expansion.

Mandatory Palestine was not a Palestinian country under the protectorate of Britain. It was a British created entity meant to administer the territory. A real Palestinian state would have been created by that 1947 partition plan but that never worked.


So Israel is justified in occupying land that isn't theirs? No.

This "not a country" guff is little more that the geographic equivalent of de-humanisation. "It's not a country so it's fine to take over it's land and oust it's people. S'all good, bro." Bollocks.
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Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:18 pm
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