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Male Abortion

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Male Abortion
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NemesiahPosts: 429Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 8:00 amLocation: Mexico Gender: Male

Post Male Abortion

So...

Does anybody here think men should have the right to "abort" a baby they do not want?

Let me clarify

I'm NOT talking about an actual abortion since that would interfere with the mother's right to mandate over her own body.

I'm talking about a man saying "I know this [morula, fetus] is mine but I don't want to be a father so I remove myself as a parent, IF you (the woman) want to keep it, its fine but don't expect anything from me".

This is a male's reproductive rights issue; women (in some places) have the right to say "This baby is mine BUT I don't want to be a mother so I will abort it or give it up for adoption" men do not have this option.

I believe that men ruling over the life of women by denying them abortions is wrong, I also think that women ruling over men's lives by controling wether they become parents or not is wrong.

I understad that a consequence of sex is the posibility of having a baby BUT it seems unfair that women can do something about it and men don't.

As a related topic

Do you believe that men should have the right to force a woman to keep a baby they don't want aborted thus becoming a mother even if they dont want to?

Any and all opinions are welcome

Thanks!
Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:06 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4347Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Male Abortion

I'd say no. If you decide to have sex then a consequence of that is there may be a baby as a result. If you've helped create a life then it is your responsibility. Sure, some men absolve themselves of that responsibility, but they're twats.
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:04 pm
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5009Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Male Abortion

I was going to say exactly the same as austra. As for whether men should have the right to force women to carry the child to term, no. It is too easy to abuse. The "rights" aren't equal.
As soon as men can have implanted wombs, we should revisit that question.
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:11 pm
Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2748Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

I'm not an apologist of getting away with everything. Actions have consequences, and at some point you have to man up to your responsibilities and deal with your own shit. Just because you could get away with something it doesn't mean that you should.
"I have an irrefutable argument for the existence of...." NO, STOP! You are already wrong!
Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:39 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Male Abortion

I agree with Australopithecus , Prolescum, and MGK.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:08 am
NemesiahPosts: 429Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 8:00 amLocation: Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

I would like to put forth the folowing argument for male abortion (as a clarification of my previous post):

First lets define the environment in which said abortion would take place: I'm talking about a city that freely allows abortions to it's women, no abortion shaming, no waiting periods (Mexico city curently allows abortions of fetus up to 12 weeks old, AFAIK no questions asked).

Next lets define the situation: The pregnancy has already happened; yes a couple should be carefull of not getting pregnant (the pill, condom, pull out, etc...) but it didn't work, maybe they were drunk, maybe the condom teared, maybe they counted wrong, maybe she forgot to take her pill, it doesn't matter; the fact is that the woman is pregnant.

Let's now clarify that under the current legislation (In my city AFAIK, but i'm not a lawyer I could be wrong) a product under 12 weeks old is not considered to have rights that supercede the mother's right to control her own body (thus is the abortion possible) and so the interests of said product will not be a factor in this reasoning.

Now lets review the four possible scenarios (thinking that people act on their desires and are not [shamed, guilted, coerced] into some other action).

1) The woman wants to keep the baby, the man wants to keep the baby
Result
They keep the baby (following the right of a woman to decide over her own body)
The woman obtained the desired result, the man obtained the desired result

2) The woman wants to keep the baby, the man doesn't want to keep the baby
Result
They keep the baby (following the right of a woman to decide over her own body)
The woman obtained the desired result, the man did not obtain the desired result

3) The woman doesn't want to keep the baby, the man wants to keep the baby
Result
They don't keep the baby (following the right of a woman to decide over her own body)
The woman obtained the desired result, the man did not obtain the desired result

4) The woman doesn't want to keep the baby, the man doesn't want to keep the baby
Result
They don't keep the baby (following the right of a woman to decide over her own body)
The woman obtained the desired result, the man obtained the desired result

Now, cases 1 and 4 are simple since they agreed on the decision, they acted according to they desires and that is how it should be.

Case 3 is a bit trickier, the man ended up loosing a son/daughter to the will of the woman, BUT it is correct since the woman has a right to decide over her own body and that supercedes the right of a man to have her incubate his progeny, and that is how it should be.

Case 2 is the one that interests me; in this case, the woman gets to keep the baby since she has a right to decide over her body and it would be wrong to force the woman to have an abortion just because the man didn't want to have a [son,daughter], HOWEVER, under curent legislation (in Mexico city at least) this means that the man is now a parent and has now all the responsabilities that come with parenthood even though he didn't want to become a parent.

This case is special not because the womans desires supercede those of the man, that also happened in case 3, this case is special because the desires of the woman directly infringe upon the liberty of the man; in case 3 the woman was excersising her freedom over her own body, ant that was correct, in case 2 however the woman is excersing her freedom over her own body and the freedom of the man.

Under this scenario the freedom of a woman over her own body is transcending her own body and reaching over to the man's body, effectively making his liberty to rule over his own body null; now he has to go to work and provide for a family he never wanted. His will has become irrelevant in the eyes of the state that forces him to pay for a child he did not consent to having.

In the proposed society the woman always has a choice of wether she becomes a parent or not, the man doesn't really has a choice but in 2 of the 4 scenarios the result is the one he wanted. In case 3 the will of a woman to NOT have the kid supercedes the will of the man to have the kid, the reverse, forcing the woman to become a mother against her will is (I believe) quite obviously wrong as it infringes on her freedom to decide over her own life. Case 2 is again the woman's will triumphing over the man's, she is deciding over her body which is ok, what is not ok is that this forces the man, infringing on his freedom, to become a parent when he never intended to be one.

In the proposed solution, the freedom of the woman is kept intact, at no point is the decision of the man not to become a parent affecting the freedom of the woman; she can still become a mother if she so decides, the diference is that she will do it without the support of the man and should she change her mind she can always decide not to become a mother under these circumstances.

I understand that not all of the world is as progresive as Mexico city and that there are places where abortion would not be an option for women, also I understand that cultural and societal presures are a big factor in wether a woman decides to keep a child or not; however, I believe that in places such as Mexico city, where women have gained the right to decide over their own bodies, men should also be given the right to decide over theirs.

Please remember that the argument of "He should not have sex if he is not willing to risk becoming a parent" is not valid in this society because the woman has every chance to risk becoming a mother and then excercise her freedom of wether or not becoming one and we are looking to give men a "equal" mor more likely an equivalent right.

Also, please remember that we are not talking about a father deserting his family, or skipping in childsupport after a separation, that man agreed to becoming a father and later faild to keep his freeley entered compromise, we are talking about a man refusig to be coerce into parenthood; the coercion being the parenthood part, certanly no one coerced him into having sex with the woman.

So, the question is; should a woman's right to rule over her own body be alowed to rule over a man's freedom also?

Have a nice day.
Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:30 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Male Abortion

In all the scenarios both parties are aware of the consequences of having sex. One of those consequences is the potential for the woman to becoming pregnant, which will result in either a birth of a child or an abortion. In all of the examples you have shown the woman and the man are paying the consequence for having sex. It just so happens that in scenario 2 and 3 the man doesn't like it.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:51 pm
NothPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 335Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:25 pmLocation: the Nether-regions Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

I think allowing men to "opt out" of fatherhood because they don't want their "liberty" trampled upon by becoming a father is a sure way to reinstate major discrimination against women.

(emphasis mine)
Nemesiah wrote:...should she change her mind she can always decide not to become a mother under these circumstances.
<< read this a few times and follow it to its logical conclusion.
So basically, women who find out that by happenstance (e.g. the condom tore) they got pregnant and feel they wish to carry this baby and bring it into the world are now suddenly faced with the dilemma of
a) keeping the baby but struggling to raise it on their own, or
b) having an abortion?
If avoiding that cruel choice is trampling on a man's liberty, trample away.

I wouldn't wave away the argument from consent so easily.
Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:32 am
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

I agree mostly with Nemesiah. Although I think 'male abortion' is a stupid term since what is really being discussed is abdication of parental rights. Ideally, relationships should be voluntary. If you have a potential father who really wants nothing to do with his child then he should not be involved in the child's life at all. Obviously this policy would require some background conditions like availability of abortions and an adequate social safety net. However, if those are in place, then I think abdication of parental rights should be a legal option.

The biggest problem I see in implementing this situation is the one Noth touched on. I'm not sure that current societies are ready to deal with this level of negotiable relationships. Social safety nets may not be up to the task of catching all those who fall down the economic ladder as a result of implementing this policy. It would be interesting to see some data around how many potential fathers would currently choose to abdicate parental rights, and what potential mothers would do in that situation.
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:45 am
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Male Abortion

It is really easy for a man to say, "Well she can always get an abortion...", when it is the woman who has to have the not so pleasant procedure.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:45 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 812Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

Aught3 wrote:I agree mostly with Nemesiah. Although I think 'male abortion' is a stupid term since what is really being discussed is abdication of parental rights. Ideally, relationships should be voluntary. If you have a potential father who really wants nothing to do with his child then he should not be involved in the child's life at all. Obviously this policy would require some background conditions like availability of abortions and an adequate social safety net. However, if those are in place, then I think abdication of parental rights should be a legal option.

The biggest problem I see in implementing this situation is the one Noth touched on. I'm not sure that current societies are ready to deal with this level of negotiable relationships. Social safety nets may not be up to the task of catching all those who fall down the economic ladder as a result of implementing this policy. It would be interesting to see some data around how many potential fathers would currently choose to abdicate parental rights, and what potential mothers would do in that situation.

Though physically as far away as we pretty much can be, mentally we are very close. There is a problem of non-equal rights here and there is no easy answer for it. Finland is probably at the top 10 of most supportive countries for mothers (free, or almost free, medical care during and after pregnancy, goverment child support for every child, cheap public day care etc.) and potentially could enact abdication rights for fathers though I don't see it happening any time soon. Men are, if you believe the news and reports, pretty much underdogs when it comes to legal rights in a relationship (getting custody, paying child support, men don't even have a legal right to a fatherhood test if he thinks he is the father).
Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:56 am
IBSpifyUser avatarPosts: 463Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:06 am Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Male Abortion

I don't like the idea as it pretty much gives every guy everywhere a way to avoid responsibility for their actions.

Though do bear in mind that I am against the idea of abortion as a form of birth control (though I do identify as pro choice).
Contrary to popular belief, full-immersion holographic sex will not destroy society.

Full-immersion holographic sex achievement points will destroy society
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:31 am
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

IBSpify wrote:Though do bear in mind that I am against the idea of abortion as a form of birth control (though I do identify as pro choice).
Do you mean this as supporting the option of abortion being legally available but wanting to discourage its use as a last resort?
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:37 am
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IBSpifyUser avatarPosts: 463Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:06 am Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Male Abortion

Aught3 wrote:
IBSpify wrote:Though do bear in mind that I am against the idea of abortion as a form of birth control (though I do identify as pro choice).
Do you mean this as supporting the option of abortion being legally available but wanting to discourage its use as a last resort?


I mean that I understand that abortion is at times medically necessary, as such it needs to be available in a safe and clean environment. Now as this is a medical procedure, it is none of my business, nor anyone else's business as to what procedures you are undergoing or the reasons for for you wanting them.

As a method of birth control abortions are not very good, they are invasive and carry a significant amount of risk that don't exist with other forms of birth control.

What the religious right seems to not understand about abortion is that if you want to limit the number of them the better way to do it is better sex education, and free or affordable contraceptives.

So what I'm saying is that abortions should be legally available, and instead of discouraging abortions, I would encourage methods of avoiding unwanted pregnancies.
Contrary to popular belief, full-immersion holographic sex will not destroy society.

Full-immersion holographic sex achievement points will destroy society
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:51 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

If a man doesn't want to have a baby, put a feckin' cap on the end before you have sex, or at least agree with your partner to use some form of contraception. If you don't take measures to ensure pregnancy does not occur then you do have some responsibility for the consequences. Walking away from a child that you are responsible for is pathetic. And though many guys do that, they tend to lack a spine and a sense of decency.
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:55 pm
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

Prolescum wrote:I was going to say exactly the same as austra. As for whether men should have the right to force women to carry the child to term, no. It is too easy to abuse. The "rights" aren't equal.
As soon as men can have implanted wombs, we should revisit that question.


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Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:51 pm
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KB147Posts: 1Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:10 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Male Abortion

Just a couple of things to chip in with.

First I don't think the 4 scenarios are a full representation of the situation. While I do understand that this was done for the sake of brevity it misses what I think are a couple of important points. I am currently having a debate with a Catholic friend about abortion (needless to say, he is opposed entirely) and a recurring theme in his writing is that women get abortions because they feel they have no other choice. Now, that may or may not be true, some or all of the time. The point is that in protecting choice we have to protect the right of women to choose not to have an abortion while simultaneously not wanting a child. It's an awful thing I am lucky I will never have to endure. So the appropriate support has to be provided for such women while bearing in mind that adoption is no easy choice either. So in some instances, women may have 'no choice' but to give birth and then keep their child. Obviously, this is a very particular circumstance but certainly, I think, one that is relatively common.

The second point is slightly off topic. In a lot of the debate around reproductive rights and women's equality people forget that there are very real and profound biological differences between the sexes. As such, I'm unsure that true equality can ever be attained. Perhaps it is useful to think of women holding all the power in this particular scenario as a weird form of affirmative action. Men get it their way a lot of the time so although the situation posed here is cause for serious consideration, women are at the initial disadvantage biologically (so to speak).

Any thoughts?

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Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:43 pm
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