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Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

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Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental
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thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

Visaki wrote:So no one, no where, never has accidently shot themselves or someone else?


Yes. Some people accidently shoot themselves or other people. I knew someone who accidently shot himself in the head and died.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:24 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

Visaki wrote:God doesn't do rights, it does might.


Whatever.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:28 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:God has the authority to say "These people should die." I know you don't like that. God says we profane him by letting people live who should not live and killing people who should not die.

One reason why you know there is a God, is by observing the behavior of people who try to deny his existence. Atheists get it right every time. Don't kill murderers, but kill sick people and children and unborn babies.

The reason way you people don't understand what rights are is no mystery.

If you're going to troll, could you please do better than "Our rights come from our dictator and tyrant: GOD!!"?
Something we're not going to dismiss because of its sheer stupidity and hypocrisy?
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Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:16 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2952Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:
Visaki wrote:So no one, no where, never has accidently shot themselves or someone else?


Yes. Some people accidently shoot themselves or other people. I knew someone who accidently shot himself in the head and died.

So guns are harmful but we have a right to have them? But we don't have a right to take drugs because they are harmful?

You could at least try to be consistent.
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Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:34 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 777Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:
Visaki wrote:So no one, no where, never has accidently shot themselves or someone else?


Yes. Some people accidently shoot themselves or other people. I knew someone who accidently shot himself in the head and died.

So in fact people who have guns do become a danger, or at least become more dangerous, to themselves and others.

Sad to hear about your friend though.
Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:09 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

Laurens wrote:So guns are harmful but we have a right to have them? But we don't have a right to take drugs because they are harmful?

You could at least try to be consistent.


The person shot himself was high on marijuana at the time.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:29 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

Visaki wrote:So in fact people who have guns do become a danger, or at least become more dangerous, to themselves and others.


The question was do I become a danger to myself or others by having a firearm(I don't currently own one actually) but my answer was no.

On the other hand if you were to give Laurens a gun, he would become a danger because he is a drug user.

People who legally carry guns in the US are 6 times LESS likely to engage in criminal behavior than Police Officers. They are virtually the most law-abiding demographic we have.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:57 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 777Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:
Visaki wrote:So in fact people who have guns do become a danger, or at least become more dangerous, to themselves and others.


The question was do I become a danger to myself or others by having a firearm(I don't currently own one actually) but my answer was no.

Yes, yes you do. If you don't own a gun you can't accidently or on purpose shoot yourself or others. If you do, you can. You might feel that you are a special case in this regard, as probably most people who buy guns do, but you are not special.

On the other hand if you were to give Laurens a gun, he would become a danger because he is a drug user.

Maybe. Most of people sometimes use substances, legal or illegal, which impair their judgement. Most people know not to carry or operate a gun when using them.

People who legally carry guns in the US are 6 times LESS likely to engage in criminal behavior than Police Officers. They are virtually the most law-abiding demographic we have.

I'd say that the people who legally carry guns would be less likely to engage in criminal behavior even if they didn't own a gun and owning a gun doesn't make you more likely to be a good law abiding citizen. It also might only show that 1) it easier to get a legal gun if you are not a criminal (or in prison) and 2) american police are a exeptionally corrupt and criminal bunch. Also: Source please.
Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:25 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

Let's ban vehicles, after all they kill more people than guns.

Image


http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/gun-deaths-versus-car-deaths/?_r=0
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:02 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

tuxbox wrote:Let's ban vehicles, after all they kill more people than guns.

Image


http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/gun-deaths-versus-car-deaths/?_r=0


Let's.

After all, vehicles are not a "natural right" despite the fact that people have been travelling for millenias and vehicles are just a tool facilitating that.

But let's keep guns because they are a "natural right" as it's a fact that people have been "self-defending" themselves for millenias and guns are just a "tool" facilitating that.
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Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:51 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:
Visaki wrote:So in fact people who have guns do become a danger, or at least become more dangerous, to themselves and others.


The question was do I become a danger to myself or others by having a firearm(I don't currently own one actually) but my answer was no.

On the other hand if you were to give Laurens a gun, he would become a danger because he is a drug user.

People who legally carry guns in the US are 6 times LESS likely to engage in criminal behavior than Police Officers. They are virtually the most law-abiding demographic we have.


You actually do become a greater danger to yourself and others simply because accidents happen. Guns go off when cleaning, dropped, etc. You'll always be a greater danger than if you had no gun at all which could be involved in an accident.
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:52 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

MarsCydonia wrote:
tuxbox wrote:Let's ban vehicles, after all they kill more people than guns.

Image


http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/gun-deaths-versus-car-deaths/?_r=0


Let's.

After all, vehicles are not a "natural right" despite the fact that people have been travelling for millenias and vehicles are just a tool facilitating that.

But let's keep guns because they are a "natural right" as it's a fact that people have been "self-defending" themselves for millenias and guns are just a "tool" facilitating that.



:facepalm:
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:55 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:
Visaki wrote:So in fact people who have guns do become a danger, or at least become more dangerous, to themselves and others.


The question was do I become a danger to myself or others by having a firearm(I don't currently own one actually) but my answer was no.

If you are to troll, can't you do a better job than an obious goal-post moving? You asserted that someone does not have a right to do drugs because "When you are high on drugs you become a danger to yourself and others" but apparently, "danger to yourself and to others" has nothing to do with it.

Otherwise, how would owning a gun be a right when there are plenty of cases of accidental shootings? Plenty of cases of a child accidently killing another child?

To what do we chalk that obvious contradiction?

thenexttodie wrote:On the other hand if you were to give Laurens a gun, he would become a danger because he is a drug user.

Alcohol.
Medication.
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Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:03 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

tuxbox wrote: :facepalm:

Interestingly, this was my reaction to your comment too!
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:19 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2952Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:
Laurens wrote:So guns are harmful but we have a right to have them? But we don't have a right to take drugs because they are harmful?

You could at least try to be consistent.


The person shot himself was high on marijuana at the time.


This pretty much confirms that you're just trolling. Have fun, I'm not going to feed you anymore. You're clearly not interested in sensible discussion.
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Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:04 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

MarsCydonia wrote:
tuxbox wrote: :facepalm:

Interestingly, this was my reaction to your comment too!



:lol:
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:11 pm
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 777Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

tuxbox wrote:Let's ban vehicles, after all they kill more people than guns.

Image

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/gun-deaths-versus-car-deaths/?_r=0

The difference between the two should be obvious. I'd love to see statistics on how many lives cars save each year vs how many lives guns save each year but I guess that's rather hard to do. But is anyone here actually for 100% ban on gun ownership of private citizens? Or for 100% free everything goes weapon owning?

I went into the "does a gun make you a danger / more dangerous" bit with thenexttodie because I disagree with his statement that having a gun doesn't make you more dangerous, not because I think all guns should be banned only because they make their carrier more dangerous.

P.S. Why did car deaths plummet in 2007-8? Did people loose their cars in the crash too? Did the Americans finally discover seat belts? Yes I'm being silly but it would be interesting to know the reason for that.

P.P.S. If I'm not mistaken most of those gun deaths are suicides. I wonder how many of those could have been prevented if there isn't a suicide button in hand? Mind you this isn't really a good argument for gun bans, the least a total ban, but I think it should be a worth remembering.

EDIT: Found a newer graph. Nothing much new there though, but new stats are better than old stats.
Image
Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:44 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

Visaki wrote:I went into the "does a gun make you a danger / more dangerous" bit with thenexttodie because I disagree with his statement that having a gun doesn't make you more dangerous, not because I think all guns should be banned only because they make their carrier more dangerous.


If by "dangerous" we mean anything or anyone being able to cause harm then this definition could be construed to mean that virtually every being, every action and inanimate object is worthy of the term. To define the word this way renders it useless for this discussion and as qualifiying factor in determining public policy. Which I think is the point Tuxbox was making.




Visaki wrote:P.S. Why did car deaths plummet in 2007-8? Did people loose their cars in the crash too? Did the Americans finally discover seat belts? Yes I'm being silly but it would be interesting to know the reason for that.


That's a good question. From what I have experience, everyone I knew started wearing seat belts in the late 90's and early 00's. Maybe it was because of airbags. Maybe it was just a good year.

Visaki wrote:P.P.S. If I'm not mistaken most of those gun deaths are suicides. I wonder how many of those could have been prevented if there isn't a suicide button in hand? Mind you this isn't really a good argument for gun bans, the least a total ban, but I think it should be a worth remembering


But you support suicide, right?
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:40 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:But you support suicide, right?

Why do you go with these red herrings other than for trolling?

It would be like if someone reminded you that you support baby-killing on an unrelated topic.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:09 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Alcohol vs. firearm: what makes a right fundamental

thenexttodie wrote:But you support suicide, right?

MarsCydonia wrote:Why do you go with these red herrings other than for trolling?

It would be like if someone reminded you that you support baby-killing on an unrelated topic.


I don't see why anyone would protest an accurate conveyance of ones beliefs. Or at least an attempt to. Vasaki can correct me if he does not in fact support suicide. Perhaps it's a bit off topic but he was the one brought it up. So wtf?

God had men women and babies killed. I believe we all have fundamental right to life but I also believe God has the authority to end our lives or to give the authority to for instance, judges, who should sentence people to death for committing certain crimes like murder.

I know it all totally blows your mind and you will never understand it.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:03 am
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