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What to do about North Korea?

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What to do about North Korea?
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SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

MatthewLee wrote:Patriot and THAAD are two parts of an integrated system. The missiles are only a small part of the information relay system. It’s sattelites, ground based phased array radar systems and sea based systems all sharing data in real-time with pinpoint accuracy. I used to go up to CIC and watch the picture on the three huge flatscreen monitors and watch every single thing for three hundred miles around us in the air or on the ground in the entire Nothern Arabian Gulf and it was frightening how complete the picture was. Operations specialists worked 24/7 just eliminating the useless tracks like debris in the water or tiny fishing boats and we could track thousands of objects even then. It wasn’t just us though. We have aircraft, helicopters, AWACS, and now we have drones and sattelites we didn’t have then...

The US Military is a terrifying juggernaut. Just waiting for an excuse right now to play with their new toys.

I agree entirely that diplomacy is necessary but it is complicated by the state of North Korea’s psyche. They are isolated from the rest of the world, kept in fear and told the reason they are starving is that Imperialists want to kill their children. It’s an immersive environment of TV, film and institutional indoctrination that Hitler would have drooled at. Juche. I often wonder if they will ever give in when all they are told is that only Western Decadence and evil is responsible for their scarcity of commodities. They don’t live in a world of real facts but are fed a steady diet of lies and rhetoric that twist their world view.


All this is, of course, true... but most significantly, it is part of the picture of how we deal with the threat of North Korea.


Did you ever watch the documentary about the doctors who were permitted to do cataracts surgery there as a humanitarian mission? After the people recieved their sight back they bowed and reverently offered tearful thanks to an image of their “fearless leader” in a church like building as if worshipping. It was chilling and nauseating at the same time.


Unfortunately, I live in a country that mimics that very closely, and it is sadly not uncommon in this part of the world (although it's not greatly different to Christians/Muslims praising an invisible man for doctors saving their eyesight!). However, internet agencies looking out for such subversive comments would not appreciate me being any more specific about the nation in which I reside, so I shall leave it there! ;)


MatthewLee wrote:I hope Kim will realize that the suffering of his people is profound and give in...


I would have to say that I think this is overly optimistic. He doesn't care - he's an artifact of an outdated era, and his people are just numbers.


MatthewLee wrote:.... but the people have to finally see him for what he is and lead the charge united against him. I don’t know that this is possible. It would be a wonderful, beautiful eventuality if he finally realized that he could bring North Korea into the 21st century and join the global economy as a major producer and active participant but it seems they are lost in a Marxist fantasy from 1949.


As you've mentioned already, for them to do that they'd need to know their alternatives rather than being wholly subsumed by the fiction. Given their near perfect isolation from the rest of the world, it's very difficult to imagine this happening on any short time scale, so we're back to having to deal with the fruitcake autocrat.


MatthewLee wrote: I hope for this, I pray for it because what else is there? I agree entirely that diplomacy is the only option even worth considering.


As such, we have to start performing a damn sight better than Trump's endless bluster and bravado. It's damn embarrassing to see the nominal leader of the free world behaving in exactly the same manner with respect to nuclear weaponry as the mentally deranged holdout of a bygone era of totalitarian crackpots. We have the sticks - even Jong-un knows that, so let's speak softly and get people to listen. At present, the world is just looking in horror as Trump slams his way from one crisis to the next.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 am
CollecemallPosts: 376Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:53 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

We need to lock those two loons in a room together and let them work out their "button" issues together. Pull back the fat and examine each other's junk in all it's glory. Maybe that would end the big dick contest they seem determined to settle with nuclear missiles. If someone doesn't get in the doofus in chief's ear and stop him from tweeting stupid shit we're going to end up getting every bad thing we deserve for voting that vile man into office. I've never seen anyone so completely incompetent at absolutely everything in my life. There's nothing he can win by engaging in this nonsense. Except praise from the WOOOOOO 'MURICA crowd. Sorry, I'm venting. I live among people that 9 out of 10 who voted picked that man. And it's probably higher than that for those that support him. Like 98.5%. Not exaggerating either. It's hard to come to grips with having so little in common with literally everyone around you. I've never wished serious ill on anyone in my life but I wouldn't lose a min of sleep if someone voted with a sniper rifle tomorrow.
"Every man is a creature of the age in which he lives, and few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of their time."
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ~~Voltaire
Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:28 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Collecemall wrote:I've never seen anyone so completely incompetent at absolutely everything in my life. There's nothing he can win by engaging in this nonsense.


Its way beyond even abnormalcy now. This is dangerous crackpottery and his staff and party have a duty to the country first and foremost, not to the crackpot-in-chief.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:27 am
MatthewLeePosts: 94Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Sparhafoc: All quite well said. I admit to being optimistic but It’s hard to keep up in light of all that’s happening.

As for Trump, my boss said this best. He said “Trump is, as a President on a scale from 1 to 10, resting comfortably at 2. But before his presidency is over he will swing five points up or down and end up either a seven or a -3”.

Time will tell but I have to hope. Hope is a load bearing member.

Trump is betting everything that KJ is bluffing. For all our sakes I hope he isn’t wrong. China is really the wildcard here. Xi could care less about this but it’s becoming his problem and he is not a weak man to be messed around wth. The trade barriers and seizure of goods as well as the lost trade from NK is irritating. Notice he doesn’t spend much time tweeting smack at other world leaders.
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:46 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

MatthewLee wrote:Trump is betting everything that KJ is bluffing.



This would suggest that Trump is strategizing rather than just naturally being a buffoon. Ironically, if the former were true and he was playing chicken with a nuclear-armed deranged autocrat then the latter would also remain true.

Anyway, of course Jong-un's bluffing - that's what he and his family have done for years. They know they have absolutely no chance militarily against the US, or China, or even middling powers. I don't think anyone serious really imagines them engaging in a military attack with provokes their own destruction. It's all about face and bravado, and Trump's playing the same damn game.


MatthewLee wrote:As for Trump, my boss said this best. He said “Trump is, as a President on a scale from 1 to 10, resting comfortably at 2. But before his presidency is over he will swing five points up or down and end up either a seven or a -3”.


For me personally, he's already caused damage to the fabric of the US that will be hard to reverse and every day that goes past in this farce just lets him drag the position through more shit. For me, on a scale of presidentialness, Trump is not on such a scale and it's unlikely he ever will be.

2018 needs to send the USA some love and fix this horrible mess they've made for themselves.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:33 am
MatthewLeePosts: 94Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Sparhafoc saidThis would suggest that Trump is strategizing rather than just naturally being a buffoon. Ironically, if the former were true and he was playing chicken with a nuclear-armed deranged autocrat then the latter would also remain true.


I find myself in the unenviable position of trying to defend Trump. I'd rather try and convince you that God exists.

We're talking about a man who appointed someone for the Secretary of Defense who's called "Mad Dog." Of course this sounds insane from any perspective but the reason American's came out at the polls and elected the unthinkable was very complex. It's not just bigoted heartland Evangelicals who were tired of gains for the Liberals... it was very, very complex. The economy is tanking. Manufacturing is non-existent and the trade arrangements we have globally have resulted in absolute devastation for what Ted Cruz called the "flyover states." It's great that civil rights is progressing and that we have peace in a lot of places but people have no jobs and the social security safety net we used to be able to count on for our retirement has been bankrupted to pay the national debt. ISIS was making insane gains in the Middle East and it felt like no one cared in the government about the common people. It seemed for awhile like the Democratic party had become an autocratic, dictatorial tyranny of its own which cared nothing for the majority opinion but rather cared only for the rights and protection of elites, the wealthy, and those who felt entirely against the grain of what has traditionally been "American Values."

My father lives in the south where manufacturing used to be the prime industry. It's a wasteland. Poverty and crime are not reported on the news but they are reality. Detroit is a war zone. I live where paper manufacturing used to be the big way to make money and that industry dried up, as well. The homeless are so numerous here they freeze to death in the winter for lack of state services to help them. There is simply no place to work. The Obama administration and the Clinton Administration did things when they were in office that really hurt people and really made it hard to make a living for people who don't have really expensive educations. The heartland is dying in this country. No auto industry, no manufacturing, no really producing industry except for the service industry remains. That's great but there's no one left to buy the services anymore. The way Obama made up for this was to raise taxes on the upper working class and the rich to give benefits to the poor and then the working and wealthy started fleeing to better economies. They fled to China, Canada, Northern Europe and did things like spend six months out of the country to not have to pay taxes on their fortunes. They don't start businesses here because our government has lost sight of the most basic principle of capitalism. Government interference in the public market is incredibly harmful. It's amazing the corporations haven't staged a coup yet... and I'm not sure that Trump is not just that. They tried with Romney and if you know who Bain Capital is then it may be really, really good that he didn't get elected. He was gonna be liquidating the remaining assets.

In fact, if you have two working adults in your family in this country it is incredibly difficult to get health insurance now because of Obamacare. It's easy if you live below the poverty level. You get medicaid and it pays for everything with no questions asked and no deductible. You get a free cell phone too, it's called an Obamaphone. It is easier and cheaper to not work in many states than it is to have two jobs and to just live above the poverty level. My states budget is so in debt because of this the local hospital (which serves half the state) is almost owed a billion dollars by the state government for medicaid bills which will likely never be paid. You are penalized for working here.

Also remember when Same Sex marriage was legalized? As a Christian, I have no problem with this. I think that if as Christians we try to legislate our opinions and beliefs we are guilty of theocracy and that is a great evil. On the other hand... the legislation is beginning to penalize us for our faith. I don't know if you know this but when Same-Sex marriage was legalized it overturned 32 state Constitutions which all had amendments voted into them which defined marriage. Even one of the Supreme Court Justices (Scalia) called it "super-judicial tyranny." The process was subverted and the people weren't asked. They could have been shown the light and made the right choice but they weren't given the chance. The Supreme Court made the choice for them and now it's starting to become illegal to even express a dissenting opinion in your business. Freedom of conscience is now no longer expedient enough for our legislature. The common people are watching their country become a place which seems to penalize them for being working Christians. Since the majority of our population are in fact, just that, it was easy for the Republicans to take advantage of this and slide into office. The Democrats disenfranchised the majority on behalf of partisan gains. People are afraid and that is the climate in which people like Trump appear.

Trump represents a complete failure of the legislature to act in the interests of the people they serve and to rather act in the interest of wealthy private interests and liberal elites. Now a whole different group of wealthy private interests and conservative elites are in charge. Merry Christmas.

How does this relate to North Korea? Americans... the heartland bread and butter American's who live in Podunk, Nowhere... want a strong leader who isn't afraid to openly represent their values. Hillary represented a slide backward for them... and Bernie Sanders was an outspoken atheist and Socialist who had no valid plan forward but "free college and free healthcare for everyone" which made every rich person instantly google how much it costs to fly to China when he first announced his candidacy. Obama showed no strong leadership as a military leader and unfortunately when you have access to the largest military on Earth you can't just let it soak up money. You have to go and assert yourself.

I hate to write this... we need Trump. His insanity has put the whole world on notice that America will defend its interests and if they want sanity back they have to play fair with us. He has begun to negotiate much more fair arrangements with foreign governments and the economy here is booming. He has actually done a lot of what he said he would. He is rebuilding our military infrastructure and he is beginning to reverse the Chinese comfort with their military expansion in the South Pacific. ISIS is on the run and the Middle East is starting the long process to stability. Remember those artificial islands that China built? They were running roughshod over our country both economically and militarily and no one would do anything about it.

This only empowered KJ. It made him think we were weak and he could play us at the negotiating table because we no longer cared about foreign affairs and his ally China was leading us around on a leash. We would give him a wide berth and let him continue to do anything he liked to keep China happy. Trumps insanity has added a note of insecurity to previous arrangements and now even China has no idea what we will do. There has to be some credibility to the idea that we are willing to suffer the casualties and willing to step in and do what is right to keep him from not only hitting us but from torturing and starving his own people. He thinks we are weak, compromising, and no threat and whether anyone likes it someone needs to make him nervous about that.

Trump's the bad cop. I am not sure who is the good cop here... UN, China... I don't know but they are between a rock and a hard place. Trump is saying... go ahead, make my day! The rest of the world, now empowered by our boldness, is beginning to stand up to him. I don't like it, but it is doing the job and KJ is flailing right now to try any crazy strategy he can to keep his power when even China is now saying... ummmm we don't know this guy!
One way or the other KJ must be brought to justice and taken from power and his nation must be allowed to join the rest of the world. The new market alone represents trillions in possible trade and is that worth a few million lives to corporate America? It seems so.

Someone had to do this at some point and whether it was Trump or not it had to happen sooner and not later. We let Syria continue with no intervention to the tune of the deployment of chemical weapons and the government would not help. We let KJ get nuclear weapons and when we had the chance to stop him or at least apply pressure the government was too weak to stand up to him and say, 'no more oil for concessions'. Trump is the absurd consequence of years of Rome failing to deal with the Visigoths in the only way they understand. Strong diplomacy from an unhinged loose canon is... perhaps... just what the doctor ordered. If KJ is in fact bluffing... we will see soon and if he is not... this was coming anyway and better sooner than later.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:13 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

MatthewLee wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:This would suggest that Trump is strategizing rather than just naturally being a buffoon. Ironically, if the former were true and he was playing chicken with a nuclear-armed deranged autocrat then the latter would also remain true.


I find myself in the unenviable position of trying to defend Trump. I'd rather try and convince you that God exists.


:lol:

I think you'd have better chances. A magical immaterial man living outside of time with the power to will things into existence seems reasonable in comparison to Trump possessing a shred of credibility.


MatthewLee wrote:We're talking about a man who appointed someone for the Secretary of Defense who's called "Mad Dog." Of course this sounds insane from any perspective but the reason American's came out at the polls and elected the unthinkable was very complex. It's not just bigoted heartland Evangelicals who were tired of gains for the Liberals... it was very, very complex.


But, of course, that was definitely a part of it. The ideological partisanship in the USA is dangerously high.


MatthewLee wrote: The economy is tanking.


Is it really though? It was still the best performing economy in the world before Trump took over with the possible exception of South Korea.



MatthewLee wrote: Manufacturing is non-existent and the trade arrangements we have globally have resulted in absolute devastation for what Ted Cruz called the "flyover states."


The USA has such a bizarre relationship with capitalism - perfectly wonderful on the way up, but no one seems to want to acknowledge the effects of capitalism on the way down.

By and large, the same is true of all the developed world:- manufacturing has declined steeply because it's vastly cheaper to set up and operate factories in Asia, and domestic factories cannot compete aside from in very specialist niches. If a company refuses to follow the money this way, then a competitor will and will then price them out of the market.

You can see the same situation in the north of England, for example, in the traditional industrial towns. 'Industrial sector' jobs there now involve making sandwiches for office workers.

In my eyes, this is just a natural progression, labour intensive agricultural jobs gave way to manufacturing which in turn gave way to service and so on. Within another half century, our traditional economies are going to be utterly destroyed by the robotic revolution anyway, so we'd best learn how to adapt rather than pretending we can restore the past.


MatthewLee wrote: It's great that civil rights is progressing and that we have peace in a lot of places but people have no jobs and the social security safety net we used to be able to count on for our retirement has been bankrupted to pay the national debt. ISIS was making insane gains in the Middle East and it felt like no one cared in the government about the common people. It seemed for awhile like the Democratic party had become an autocratic, dictatorial tyranny of its own which cared nothing for the majority opinion but rather cared only for the rights and protection of elites, the wealthy, and those who felt entirely against the grain of what has traditionally been "American Values."


How people came to that conclusion is far beyond my comprehension other than because they uncritically bought into partisan ideological bullshit espoused by places like Fox et al.

And as if the Republicans are going to look out for the man on the street! :shock: Those struggling best wait for that trickle to come on down because the Republicans have shown that the 2 main ways they will find money to lower taxes on the super-wealthy will be to gut peoples' welfare and medical well-being, and to tax the poor.

I don't see a clear relationship between the factors here as you've proposed. I think there was a protest vote, but it wasn't against the Democrats or against the economy... I think it was against Hilary Clinton. I think the only way that the Democrats could have lost running against Trump was by fielding her.

To me, this supports a point I've made many times over the years: there's no such thing as a healthy democracy in which only two parties contest. Life is not binary red and blue. If there was a significant third party in the US, they'd have profited tremendously from a R:Trump and D:Clinton lineup.


MatthewLee wrote:My father lives in the south where manufacturing used to be the prime industry. It's a wasteland. Poverty and crime are not reported on the news but they are reality. Detroit is a war zone. I live where paper manufacturing used to be the big way to make money and that industry dried up, as well. The homeless are so numerous here they freeze to death in the winter for lack of state services to help them. There is simply no place to work.


Ok, but how is this going to change with Republicans? It's not like this occurred solely under Obama but has been happening for the last 3 or 4 decades.


MatthewLee wrote: The Obama administration and the Clinton Administration did things when they were in office that really hurt people and really made it hard to make a living for people who don't have really expensive educations. The heartland is dying in this country. No auto industry, no manufacturing, no really producing industry...


Can you be specific? For me, one of Obama's first acts was to bail out the failing automobile industry he'd inherited. Are people that forgetful that they blame decades of ills on a single administration?


MatthewLee wrote:... except for the service industry remains.


Absolutely true, but also absolutely true of the entire developed world. Very few of the traditional industrial jobs remain because we simply cannot compete with Asia in prices. To me, this means we need to work smart, build high-tech industries where we can still compete and which bring in more value than the base goods.


MatthewLee wrote: That's great but there's no one left to buy the services anymore. The way Obama made up for this was to raise taxes on the upper working class and the rich to give benefits to the poor and then the working and wealthy started fleeing to better economies. They fled to China, Canada, Northern Europe and did things like spend six months out of the country to not have to pay taxes on their fortunes.


Do you have any sources for this? As far as I can recall, all the companies who manufacture abroad have been doing so for decades and rather it's just the impact of that started to be felt more strongly in the last decade.


MatthewLee wrote: They don't start businesses here because our government has lost sight of the most basic principle of capitalism.


To me, the most basic principle of capitalism is to make goods as cheaply as possible and sell them for as much profit as possible. So, to me, using capitalism's logic, what has occurred industrially in the US is a clear effect of capitalism - following the bottom line. Further, I would say that the antithesis of free-market capitalism is protectionism which is what Trump appears to stand for when it's other peoples' money (he is, of course, perfectly happy to employ cheap foreigners when it's his bottom line).

Still, none of this suggests any actual resolution to the problem. Goods are still going to be produced more cheaply overseas than in the US, companies are still not going to be able to compete internationally if they are obliged to manufacture their goods in places where they have to pay double the wages they do elsewhere. I don't think capitalism is going to thrive under Trump's proposals - quite the opposite!


MatthewLee wrote: Government interference in the public market is incredibly harmful.


I am finding your arguments confusing. The effect on industry in the US is directly due to free-market capitalism, whereas Trump is intervening and contradicting capitalism.


MatthewLee wrote: It's amazing the corporations haven't staged a coup yet... and I'm not sure that Trump is not just that. They tried with Romney and if you know who Bain Capital is then it may be really, really good that he didn't get elected. He was gonna be liquidating the remaining assets.


Actually, if you look at what the corporations are saying, they are arguing against Trump's proposals 9 times out of 10. They're in the modern world, they're adapting to its challenges, but Trump is trying to revert to the 1950's as if the same forces and environment were in play.


MatthewLee wrote:In fact, if you have two working adults in your family in this country it is incredibly difficult to get health insurance now because of Obamacare.


Can you explain how it's more difficult now than it was prior to Obamacare? Also, do you think Trumpcare's going to make it easier for them?


MatthewLee wrote: It's easy if you live below the poverty level. You get medicaid and it pays for everything with no questions asked and no deductible.


Just so you're aware, most people on this forum are from nations where universal healthcare is taken as the norm, so it will be difficult for you to portray ensuring the poorest members of society being treated for free as something negative. Personally, I wouldn't even exist as a human being were I to have lived under a traditional US healthcare system - I and my family owe our lives to universal healthcare.


MatthewLee wrote: You get a free cell phone too, it's called an Obamaphone. It is easier and cheaper to not work in many states than it is to have two jobs and to just live above the poverty level. My states budget is so in debt because of this the local hospital (which serves half the state) is almost owed a billion dollars by the state government for medicaid bills which will likely never be paid. You are penalized for working here.


For me, that's not quite accurate. You mean you are not rewarded for working, which is different. That's the kind of policy issue which needs to be worked on, but it doesn't mean that poor people are being rewarded just because they are insured against spiraling into crushing lifelong debt just from getting sick.



MatthewLee wrote:Also remember when Same Sex marriage was legalized? As a Christian, I have no problem with this. I think that if as Christians we try to legislate our opinions and beliefs we are guilty of theocracy and that is a great evil. On the other hand... the legislation is beginning to penalize us for our faith. I don't know if you know this but when Same-Sex marriage was legalized it overturned 32 state Constitutions which all had amendments voted into them which defined marriage. Even one of the Supreme Court Justices (Scalia) called it "super-judicial tyranny." The process was subverted and the people weren't asked. They could have been shown the light and made the right choice but they weren't given the chance. The Supreme Court made the choice for them and now it's starting to become illegal to even express a dissenting opinion in your business. Freedom of conscience is now no longer expedient enough for our legislature. The common people are watching their country become a place which seems to penalize them for being working Christians. Since the majority of our population are in fact, just that, it was easy for the Republicans to take advantage of this and slide into office. The Democrats disenfranchised the majority on behalf of partisan gains. People are afraid and that is the climate in which people like Trump appear.


I am not sure what alternative you imagine. It's the Supreme Court's specific remit to make laws that are applicable across the federation, and it is not individual state's choice or right to make laws which contravene federal law. It's not like the US runs referenda for other rights issues, so why should this one be any different?

Really, it's the world that's changing and the response by some quarters is due to their insularity. They aren't aware of what's going on even in another state, let alone in other nations around the world.

Also, I have to repeat the same format of assertion I made in response to your previous paragraph: it doesn't mean that heterosexual people are being disenfranchised just because homosexuals are being granted the same rights and status.

For me, the picture you are painting of this core of America is very dark where it's either they get everything they think they want, or they feel threatened.


MatthewLee wrote:Trump represents a complete failure of the legislature to act in the interests of the people they serve and to rather act in the interest of wealthy private interests and liberal elites. Now a whole different group of wealthy private interests and conservative elites are in charge. Merry Christmas.


I doubt there's actually any substantive difference in who those wealthy elites are.


MatthewLee wrote:How does this relate to North Korea? Americans... the heartland bread and butter American's who live in Podunk, Nowhere... want a strong leader who isn't afraid to openly represent their values. Hillary represented a slide backward for them... and Bernie Sanders was an outspoken atheist and Socialist who had no valid plan forward but "free college and free healthcare for everyone" which made every rich person instantly google how much it costs to fly to China when he first announced his candidacy. Obama showed no strong leadership as a military leader and unfortunately when you have access to the largest military on Earth you can't just let it soak up money. You have to go and assert yourself.


Terrifying.

And who captured Osama? ;)

I realize you are painting a picture of how 'they' think, but their thoughts seem so full of counterfactuals.

And Trump represents no one's values except if those values are self-conceited, selfish aggression. I think you are over-reaching. I agree that Trump's win was a protest vote, but given his abysmal approval rating, I think most of his own voters have long since realized he doesn't represent them in the slightest.

The great danger is that the traditional way Republicans have staved up their approval ratings is by finding an enemy and going to war. Wars with nukes? No fun.

Plus, given that argument and Trump wanting to build up the military, then the logic would suggest that there'll be even more impetus to use that military power.


MatthewLee wrote:I hate to write this... we need Trump.


Ugh. Tell me about how Jesus is going to save me - I would find that a damn sight more compelling than this lunacy. Sorry, you seem a nice chap, but this is batshit. No one needs Trump, he's a dangerous person to have in charge.


MatthewLee wrote: His insanity has put the whole world on notice that America will defend its interests and if they want sanity back they have to play fair with us.


Let's be blunt here - you've spoken for the people who voted for Trump, so I will speak for the rest of the world.

His insanity has shown the world that the USA cannot be trusted to manage its own affairs, that its system is weak enough to be won by a crackpot, that its populace is thick enough to support a functional moron. The rest of the world is horrified that the USA they have been allies with for decades, even centuries, has been so easily subverted by this moron.

The actual effect of this is going to be a whole new raft of relationships between nations knowing they can no longer depend on the USA to be a sane actor, and the US is going to find itself ever more isolated with less friends, less opportunities, and a significantly harder challenge across all economic theatres. We can talk specifics here because there are already plenty of signs from climate accords to economic partnerships in Asia, to destabilizing the Middle East.


MatthewLee wrote: He has begun to negotiate much more fair arrangements with foreign governments...


Name one. Just one.


MatthewLee wrote:... and the economy here is booming.


The economy has been officially booming since about a year and a half into Obama's tenure.


MatthewLee wrote: He has actually done a lot of what he said he would.


As far as I can see, he hasn't. He's failed in most areas and caused great divides in public opinion in those he's had even slight success in.


MatthewLee wrote: He is rebuilding our military infrastructure...


You just argued that the US was already militarily powerful, that Obama failed to use that military power, and that having military power means you have to use it. This and the notion that the US' standing in the world is going up seems to be internally contradictory.


MatthewLee wrote:....and he is beginning to reverse the Chinese comfort with their military expansion in the South Pacific.


Firstly, China hasn't expanded militarily in the South Pacific. Secondly, Trump's done precisely squat about their land-grabbing.


MatthewLee wrote: ISIS is on the run and the Middle East is starting the long process to stability.


Nothing to do with 8 years of the former administration? Ok, so name a single instance of Trump's involvement having had an impact on ISIS.


MatthewLee wrote: Remember those artificial islands that China built? They were running roughshod over our country both economically and militarily and no one would do anything about it.


Um, they still are, and we are all doing as much as we were doing before.

Please specify what it is that Trump has supposedly done about China's land-grabbing.


MatthewLee wrote:This only empowered KJ. It made him think we were weak and he could play us at the negotiating table because we no longer cared about foreign affairs and his ally China was leading us around on a leash. We would give him a wide berth and let him continue to do anything he liked to keep China happy. Trumps insanity has added a note of insecurity to previous arrangements and now even China has no idea what we will do. There has to be some credibility to the idea that we are willing to suffer the casualties and willing to step in and do what is right to keep him from not only hitting us but from torturing and starving his own people. He thinks we are weak, compromising, and no threat and whether anyone likes it someone needs to make him nervous about that.


I mean, the notion that anyone thought the USA was weak before is, as far as I am concerned, completely delusional and out of touch with reality, but setting that aside: how does making China and NK think we're mad dogs who've stayed too long in the midday sun result in preferable outcomes? I don't see the slightest hint of the logic to that argument. If anything, China's not going to consider the USA a serious ally or serious diplomatic partner, and will simply ignore them.


MatthewLee wrote:Trump's the bad cop. I am not sure who is the good cop here... UN, China... I don't know but they are between a rock and a hard place. Trump is saying... go ahead, make my day! The rest of the world, now empowered by our boldness, is beginning to stand up to him.


WHAT?

Sorry Matthew, but there are only so many bizarre assertions I can take in one post. There is absolutely nothing 'bold' coming out of the US; what's coming out is seen as batshit.

Further, look at the history of international interactions with North Korea and claim with a straight face that other nations weren't just as willing to stand up to North Korea before as they are now. We've all been doing this for decades, and nothing whatsoever has changed with respect to Trump other than nations now needing to look sideways to make sure the US hasn't just gone batshit again while they blinked.

Before, we all knew where we stood, and we were unified. That's a lot more powerful position to be in than having to wonder about the integrity of your key ally.


MatthewLee wrote: I don't like it, but it is doing the job and KJ is flailing right now to try any crazy strategy he can to keep his power when even China is now saying... ummmm we don't know this guy!

One way or the other KJ must be brought to justice and taken from power and his nation must be allowed to join the rest of the world. The new market alone represents trillions in possible trade and is that worth a few million lives to corporate America? It seems so.


/shudder


MatthewLee wrote:Someone had to do this at some point and whether it was Trump or not it had to happen sooner and not later.


No, history doesn't support that. There are numerous ways this could go, and there are numerous ways that North Korea could throw off their dictatorial shackles without international involvement.

Further, for clarity, nothing whatsoever has changed with respect to Jong-un's power aside from the fact that Trump's willing to give him the platform to make his crazy pronouncements and people now have to check to see whether it was the crazy dictator in North Korea who made the latest idiotic chest-beating, or whether it was the guy nominally in charge of the last remaining super power of the last century.

Trump is a symptom of the decline of the USA, and he's greatly accelerating that decline.


MatthewLee wrote: We let Syria continue with no intervention to the tune of the deployment of chemical weapons and the government would not help.


What was the alternative? Giving the crackpot fundamentalists weapons? That worked out well, didn't it ISIS?


MatthewLee wrote: We let KJ get nuclear weapons and when we had the chance to stop him or at least apply pressure the government was too weak to stand up to him and say, 'no more oil for concessions'.


It's not 'weakness' not to go in guns blazing all the time.


MatthewLee wrote: Trump is the absurd consequence of years of Rome failing to deal with the Visigoths in the only way they understand.


Rome was in decline for a century prior to the Visigoths arrival, and it was Rome who'd been conquering everyone willy nilly and were overstretched and unable to contain their frontiers.


MatthewLee wrote: Strong diplomacy from an unhinged loose canon is... perhaps... just what the doctor ordered.


:shock:

A chest-beating match between two human apes who have significantly greater capacity to harm everyone that just slinging poo at each other.


MatthewLee wrote: If KJ is in fact bluffing... we will see soon and if he is not... this was coming anyway and better sooner than later.


A nuclear contest is better never rather than sooner or later.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:03 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

One thought that keeps coming up... in what way has Trump or the USA been 'bold' with North Korea?

In this brave new world, is ranting about fire and fury on Twitter the way we show we're bold? :?
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:14 am
TreePosts: 221Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:08 pm Gender: Tree

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

As such, we have to start performing a damn sight better than Trump's endless bluster and bravado. It's damn embarrassing to see the nominal leader of the free world behaving in exactly the same manner with respect to nuclear weaponry as the mentally deranged holdout of a bygone era of totalitarian crackpots. We have the sticks - even Jong-un knows that, so let's speak softly and get people to listen. At present, the world is just looking in horror as Trump slams his way from one crisis to the next.


I still have to ask, what exactly has been achieved with diplomacy so far? The 3 previous presidents tried it, didn't work. All it did was allow NK to first get a bomb and then get more bombs and better systems of delivery.

It's easy to blame Trump but you don't really have a solution. Your side is in no better position to solve this crisis and Trump's strategy could have easily taken care of the problem with minimal losses if it was done 25 years ago. Thanks, pacifists, you let Ramsay Bolton get a nuke. You let the tumor grow big enough that now getting rid of it puts the patient at serious risk of death or permanent disability.

Amazing how the same people who drone on about gun control and how us peasants can't even hold a handgun are perfectly fine and lose no sleep over Ramsay fucking Bolton having a nuke (and developing the means by which to deliver it anywhere on the planet).
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:39 am
CollecemallPosts: 376Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:53 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

I don't have time to interject much here but I'd like to point out that Obama didn't just inherit a shit sandwich he inherited the biggest shit sandwich since the depression. It wasn't just the one industry failing. It was banking, real estate, the automobile industry... and on and on. Oh, and we were busy with multiple wars that shouldn't have been started to begin with. The man deserves very little of the vitriol and hate coming from the right. And how has he been thanked for saving the economy from crashing completely? Why we've decided to undo every regulation put in place to keep it from happening again. It baffles me how short people's memories are. Maybe you were 12 or something. But I lived through it. Lost 100k on a house because of it. In an area where the average house doesn't cost that. And I was LUCKY. Now your boy is removing the regulations put in place to stop that from happening again. It's mind blowing that people are that short sighted. Enjoy the economy Obama created because it won't be long and it will be crashing on our heads again.

The reason we have Obamacare is BECAUSE RATES WERE RISING EVERY YEAR ALREADY!!!!!! Healthcare was already a cluster fuck and the only response by republicans was to tell people like me to fuck off and die. You'd be amazed how many of my "friends" don't mind saying I don't deserve to have insurance because it might make yours more expensive. Fuck you very much eh? Like I wanted to have degenerative disk disease. Or lupus. And I'm healthy compared to a million other people that weren't able to get insurance for any price. The only thing wrong with Obamacare is that it didn't go far enough.

That "Obama Phone" also isn't an Obama invention. I worked in cellular in 2003 and we were having to both advertise we had the program and sign people up on it. But don't let that change the narrative whoever has wove for you that the Muslim socialist was out to sink us all. I sometimes wonder if I live on the same planet as other people. How we can see the same thing so differently. Facts be damned.

And can my "freedom of conscience" be exercised on a black man because he surely is sub human and I ought not have to let him in my fine lily white establishment..... Funny how one man's "freedom of conscience" is another man's hate.

That's about as far as I got reading. And as much time as I have to reply. EDIT: It appears Sparhafoc replied and probably addressed these things more tactfully so feel free to ignore me.
"Every man is a creature of the age in which he lives, and few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of their time."
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ~~Voltaire
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:47 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Tree wrote:I still have to ask, what exactly has been achieved with diplomacy so far? The 3 previous presidents tried it, didn't work. All it did was allow NK to first get a bomb and then get more bombs and better systems of delivery.


And I'll answer the same: no nuclear bombs have been dropped.


Tree wrote:It's easy to blame Trump but you don't really have a solution.


Typical non-sequitur from Tree.

No one is 'blaming' Trump for North Korea's existence, for the Jong-un family's vicious autocracy, or for anything other than Trump's obdurate idiocy.

Further, 'no solution' is vastly superior than 'nuclear solution'.


Tree wrote: Your side...


I don't have a 'side', Tree.


Tree wrote:... is in no better position to solve this crisis and Trump's strategy could have easily taken care of the problem with minimal losses if it was done 25 years ago.


1) I am in no position to solve this crisis because I am not a fucking leader of a nation, Tree - thanks for reminding us how useful your input is.
2) Trump doesn't have a strategy - stop pretending his narcissistic pathology is intellectual.
3) Your crystal ball is a hoax, Tree - you love asserting fiction as fact, but it doesn't wash with anyone possessing so much as an ounce of competent thought.



Tree wrote: Thanks, pacifists,...


Idiot.


Tree wrote:... you let Ramsay Bolton get a nuke.


Typical Tree - sling some shit because non-sequiturs always make for reasoned discussion.

No one 'let' NK get a nuke, you functional moron. Not going to war with a nation =/= letting a nation arm



Tree wrote: You let the tumor grow big enough that now getting rid of it puts the patient at serious risk of death or permanent disability.


Folksy analogy time.


Tree wrote:Amazing how the same people who drone on about gun control and how us peasants can't even hold a handgun are perfectly fine and lose no sleep over Ramsay fucking Bolton having a nuke (and developing the means by which to deliver it anywhere on the planet).


Funny how it's Wednesday even though it's not Wednesday. Why are you kiddie fiddlers even interested in North Korea anyway? Aren't there kiddies for you to be fiddling with?
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:11 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Collecemall wrote:I don't have time to interject much here but I'd like to point out that Obama didn't just inherit a shit sandwich he inherited the biggest shit sandwich since the depression. It wasn't just the one industry failing. It was banking, real estate, the automobile industry... and on and on. Oh, and we were busy with multiple wars that shouldn't have been started to begin with. The man deserves very little of the vitriol and hate coming from the right. And how has he been thanked for saving the economy from crashing completely? Why we've decided to undo every regulation put in place to keep it from happening again. It baffles me how short people's memories are. Maybe you were 12 or something. But I lived through it. Lost 100k on a house because of it. In an area where the average house doesn't cost that. And I was LUCKY. Now your boy is removing the regulations put in place to stop that from happening again. It's mind blowing that people are that short sighted. Enjoy the economy Obama created because it won't be long and it will be crashing on our heads again.


Ideology over reality, and sadly, that coup has already occurred.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:13 am
TreePosts: 221Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:08 pm Gender: Tree

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Sparhafoc wrote:And I'll answer the same: no nuclear bombs have been dropped.


You have established no causal relation between the two and even if it were true, that is a low bar to set. I have much higher expectations from US presidents.

I expect diplomacy to prevent crazy dictatorships from getting or perfecting WMDs. If they get WMDs or they improve their WMDs, then diplomacy has failed utterly in my eyes. Thumbs down.

Further, 'no solution' is vastly superior than 'nuclear solution'.


Who said anything about dropping nukes?

Did you forget how powerful US conventional weaponry is?

How many times must this be explained to you? North Korea could be reduced to the Stone Age by the US military without a single nuke being dropped.

I don't have a 'side', Tree.


I don't appreciate this kind of dishonesty. On every single issue you firmly support the left-wing progressive side. Every single one. You're not just left-wing but firmly left-wing. That doesn't make you wrong by default, but you shouldn't try to conceal the full extent of your views. I don't conceal the fact that I'm right-wing.

1) I am in no position to solve this crisis because I am not a fucking leader of a nation, Tree - thanks for reminding us how useful your input is.
2) Trump doesn't have a strategy - stop pretending his narcissistic pathology is intellectual.


We'll see about that. Trump has advisors.

You still might just get your wish and nothing will happen (maybe Trump will decide a strike on NK is too risky) and your generation will inherit a fully armed North Korea about which nothing can be done anymore without literally triggering the end of the world. And maybe you'll have to pay some tribute too so they don't sell those nukes to other bad actors. Good luck with that.

And no that's not me having a fucking "crystal ball", that's called a risk assessment. Maybe Kim won't do anything at all with those nukes and ICBMs. That doesn't mean he's trustworthy.

3) Your crystal ball is a hoax, Tree - you love asserting fiction as fact, but it doesn't wash with anyone possessing so much as an ounce of competent thought.


It's not a fucking crystal ball, it's basic deduction based on the fact that they didn't have nukes 25 years ago, you douche bag.

There was no possible way to retaliate against the US or its allies using a nuke. We could have ended the regime long ago when it was easier to do so.

Idiot.


How creative.

No one 'let' NK get a nuke, you functional moron. Not going to war with a nation =/= letting a nation arm


Go read a fucking dictionary, you ass, the word was used in a perfectly legitimate way.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/let
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/allow

Yes, Bill Clinton and George Bush let (i.e. allow i.e. permit by neglect or oversight) the Kim regime get nukes and Barack Obama let the Kim regime continue to get more nukes. They did nothing to stop the regime. Not militarily or diplomatically, it was all a failure.

Did I forget anything? Ah yes, go screw yourself you degenerate pile of garbage.

Folksy analogy time.


How would you describe the situation?

Sparhafoc wrote:Ideology over reality, and sadly, that coup has already occurred.


If you honestly think the Democratic Party is not driven by any kind of ideology, you are terribly deluded.

Why don't you go into how much money is being lost due to these burdensome regulations or how some regulations actually contribute to a crisis? Regulations like requiring banks to loan money to people who would never qualify for a loan in a free market. But hey, muh affordable housing I guess... Get a trailer or rent.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:54 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Tree wrote:You have established no causal relation between the two and even if it were true, that is a low bar to set.


I have established no causal connection between two actual historical facts, but Tree's crystal ball has established with absolute certainty that...

Trump's strategy could have easily taken care of the problem (of North Korea) with minimal losses if it was done 25 years ago.


I clearly need to read a guidebook on playing chess with pigeons, because I was unaware of that move! :)


And of course, the very low bar I set is that nuclear weapons haven't been used in a military campaign, not causing potentially hundreds of thousands of death, millions of victims, irradiated soil, and assorted other damage to the world - I mean, it's like I have no aspirations at all, right?

See, what we really need to aspire to, according to Tree, is Rambo II. If you don't want to agree with the Tree, then it's obviously your responsibility to personally train in the ninja arts, stealthily infiltrate North Korea and personally assassinate Jong-un then walk away as the palace explodes. Remember, Tree is being perfectly serious in all his sweeping policy decisions he makes on the internet.


And strategy! :lol: :lol: :lol:

What a naive loon you are thinking that Trump's repetitive bellicose interactions with... well, every-fucking-one... is some kind of strategy rather than just his latent narcissistic aggression. Remember, Trump's taking names in the UN.... well, us countries other than the US want to make absolutely sure you can see the extended nature of our middle fingers. ;)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... lem-israel

Twenty-two of the 28 EU countries voted for the resolution, including the UK and France. Germany – which in the past has abstained on measures relating to Israel – also voted in favour.


These nations are the USA's actual allies. Spin it.. go on, spin how they're just hotbeds of communism, or pro-Islamic fundamentalists, or maybe just all members of atheism plus.... or any of the other mindless fucking gunge of inane well poisonings you spew here every time you open your figurative mouth.

In reality, when your actual, real friends are telling you you're acting like a cunt, it behooves you to stop doing whatever it is and think.


Tree wrote: I have much higher expectations from US presidents.


President Rambo III

Didn't you notice what happens when your nation invades other nations? Remember Afghanistan? Remember that shit-show? Remember how the Afghans welcome you today with open arms? Remember how you are still paying for their national security? Remember the bodies of your youth sent home flags draped? Remember that, do you? Remember Iraq? Remember their non-existent weapons of mass destruction we were absolutely sure they had and which thereby somehow gave us the right to pre-emptively attack them so they couldn't use those weapons? Remember that do you? Remember what happened after? Remember how Iraqi murdered Iraqi because we didn't bother considering minor things like history, traditions, culture, or a single damn thing about the place we invaded and chronically destablized? Remember how that destabilization of the region eventually resulted in a new barbaric Caliphate arising hell bent on enacting some kind of 8th century wet dream? Remember the bodies of your own... again with the bodies... and the flags....? Remember how your national treasure was spent on invading these countries, on maintaining peace against an occupied populace? Remember how tens of thousands of innocent civilians were killed, how hundreds of thousands lost their livelihoods, how millions were dispossessed, starved, hospitalized, bombed, and left without medical treatment for their families? Remember how it was all important because it meant that we ensured those weapons of mass destruction that didn't actually exist would never be used in the possible future in such a way as to possibly harm us? Remember that do you?

Yeah, we've done that deranged aggression before and it never turns out well for anyone, but it's funny how the naive fuckwits in our societies are always so willing to trust the next chest-beater that comes along, believe his fearsome proclamations about the dangerous state of the world, and support him as he sends our children out to once again die and kill in the name of something we'll spin later.


Tree wrote:I expect diplomacy to prevent crazy dictatorships from getting or perfecting WMDs. If they get WMDs or they improve their WMDs, then diplomacy has failed utterly in my eyes. Thumbs down.


Of course, because you somehow simultaneously believe that the USA has the absolute right to do and say whatever it pleases, to whomever it pleases, in any tone it pleases... but those johnny foreigners have no say in their own affairs whatsoever.

Diplomacy isn't about winning, you drongo; it's not a zero-fucking-sum game where the USA has ad hoc house rules. It's about ensuring we all understand each other so that devastating mistakes don't occur, it's about building cooperation and trust, and developing networks of relationships so that we don't need to go to war because we did that before, and it wasn't actually very nice.

All the other nations who agree to embargo North Korea aren't doing so because your silverback-in-chief is shaking his Twitter tree, it's because we've been talking about this shit for years and have been steadily ramping up the pressure - you know, actual strategy. That's what diplomacy is dribbler, that's what it can achieve; a united front from all the nations of the world is our modern reality; it's how shit gets done - not some solitary tweeting cowboy proclaiming himself the fastest gun-slinger in the West.



Tree wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Further, 'no solution' is vastly superior than 'nuclear solution'.


Who said anything about dropping nukes?


I did - you can read it right there in the sentence you've quoted from me.



Tree wrote:Did you forget how powerful US conventional weaponry is?


Is it different than 'conventional weaponry'? No? Oh ok, then, no I didn't forget. You realize there are a minimum of two sides in a war, dribbler?



Tree wrote:How many times must this be explained to you? North Korea could be reduced to the Stone Age by the US military without a single nuke being dropped.


Explained or asserted from your fantasy land?

Go on - spell it out what you actually mean, drop the silly 'Stone Age' thing because, as everyone here is perfectly competent enough to realize, the Stone Age represents a level of knowledge and manufacturing techniques, not a degree of infrastructure. You just mean 'a lot' don't you? So why not say it, you loon?

How pray tell do you go about bombing North Korea a lot without them responding? Remember? You're frightened of Jong-un dropping nukes on you, but now you're going to go and attack him with conventional weapons and hope he plays nice?

You need to shut your empty-flapping-trap and stop 'explaining' and start listening to sense. You repeatedly engender a perfect absence of logic when you make one of your numerous inane claims that goes: "We need to be worried about X happening, so therefore we should proceed as if X is definitely going to happen, and in so doing cause X to fucking happen". While you may be perfectly happy playing the nuclear roulette game where North Korea's poor targeting means their first fired nuke drops in a random location, perhaps you'll find that others of your nation aren't so fucking keen as you.

Secondly, what do you imagine is going to happen were the USA to start fucking invading North Korea? Have you looked at a map recently? See that blob above the little swathe of North Korea? Yeah, they're not going to be keen on being neighbours with an invading American force. Going to bomb them into the Stone Age too, Rambo?

Thirdly, there's that other bit... you know, after you've bombed another nation into the ground and, somehow, ungrateful cunts that they are, the populace fucking hates you and does everything they can to kill your soldiers, send back those bodies home draped in flags to make the imperialists pay even if just a fraction of the price they've forced onto yet another populace.

This fiction about making America safer by bullying and bombing everyone who won't play ball can never end, and sooner or later people will start to see you as the aggressor, and the real threat to world peace, worse, it will only make the world more dangerous for everyone, Americans specifically included.

This is what sensible discussion is, Tree. It's what adults do when they talk about the real world. You need to confine yourself to writing film reviews because that appears to be the extent of your comprehension of reality.


Tree wrote:
I don't have a 'side', Tree.


I don't appreciate this kind of dishonesty.


Fuck off Tree - you're one of the slimiest cunts I've ever had the fortune to meet, so you don't get to repeatedly call me dishonest just because the little man in your head asserted so. Either you SHOW me lying, or put your mouth back round your shrivelled little cock and go back to gobbling yourself off.

See? That's what really happens when you act a cunt - people are cunts back to you. Watch how this happens when your mental man in charge tries bullying other nations.


Tree wrote: On every single issue you firmly support the left-wing progressive side. Every single one.


Aye, of course I already addressed this vacuous fucking bollocks ten times before.

You are fanatically right wing, Tree - thus, every cunt in this world is 'left' of you. That doesn't actually make every other cunt 'left' - it just makes you a fundamentalist fruitcake.


Tree wrote: You're not just left-wing but firmly left-wing.


As I have told you (bearing in mind that everyone is very well aware that what I say about my position and beliefs vastly supersedes your assertion about my position in every measurable way), I am a centrist. I am not a centrist by choice, not a centrist by ideology, not a centrist by world-view... I am a centrist because it's where I cannot help but find myself.

The fact that you routinely paint everyone as being part of some conspiracy against you, whether it be Mexicans out to rob you, Muslims out to murder you, or everyone being a leftie who's conspiring to take your pocket money shows the real fact is that you are all fundamentalist ideology, so it's all you see - utterly blinkered.

Yes, it's exactly the same as when religious fundamentalists claim that atheism is a religion - it's really just an indication of what passes for thought in their silly little heads. The exact same goes with you - when you called me a North Korean stooge, when you claimed I was a Muslim apologist, and when you called me all the other silly little boogeymen inside your silly little head... you said nothing about me, Tree; not a single thing did you reveal about me. What you showed is how your brain functions, and therefore it provides the context for your inane position - it lets us know how you came about these bad ideas and why you continue to possess them.

As usual, I could of course just demand that you cite any instance of me actually espousing a single position that is factually left-wing, but we all know how that would go... suffice it to say that if anyone doesn't know we're back aboard your sinister merry-go-round, they haven't been paying attention.


Tree wrote:That doesn't make you wrong by default, but you shouldn't try to conceal the full extent of your views. I don't conceal the fact that I'm right-wing.


You're not 'right wing' Tree, you're rabid. There's no coherent policy you've exhibited, no sense of any actual political stability underpinning your thoughts - there's just hatred of the other and a vastly bloated sense of self-worth.


Tree wrote:
1) I am in no position to solve this crisis because I am not a fucking leader of a nation, Tree - thanks for reminding us how useful your input is.
2) Trump doesn't have a strategy - stop pretending his narcissistic pathology is intellectual.


We'll see about that. Trump has advisors.


Who spend their time racing about putting out the latest fires set by their 'boss'.



Tree wrote:You still might just get your wish and nothing will happen (maybe Trump will decide a strike on NK is too risky) and your generation will inherit a fully armed North Korea about which nothing can be done anymore without literally triggering the end of the world. And maybe you'll have to pay some tribute too so they don't sell those nukes to other bad actors. Good luck with that.


Still better than an actual nuclear conflict occurring because macho-man needed to show the other narcissistic sociopath who's got the biggest fucking button.


Tree wrote:And no that's not me having a fucking "crystal ball", that's called a risk assessment.


:lol:

A risk assessment which is approximately as legitimate and substantive as all the other proclamations you've made - better summed up as the navel fluff you've proudly presented as fact.


Tree wrote: Maybe Kim won't do anything at all with those nukes and ICBMs. That doesn't mean he's trustworthy.


Maybe Trump won't - doesn't mean he's trustworthy.

As I've said before: it's easy to churn out the empty bullshit which all your posts contain.


Tree wrote:
3) Your crystal ball is a hoax, Tree - you love asserting fiction as fact, but it doesn't wash with anyone possessing so much as an ounce of competent thought.


It's not a fucking crystal ball, it's basic deduction based on the fact that they didn't have nukes 25 years ago, you douche bag.


:lol:

Basic deduction because of a counter-factual? :lol:

Honestly, you are a complete fucking joke me old mucker. I'm permanently bemused by your sense of self-worth comparative to your actual competence.

Let's play.... well, Twitter didn't exist 25 years ago, so Trump would have been screwed! :lol:


Tree wrote:There was no possible way to retaliate against the US or its allies using a nuke. We could have ended the regime long ago when it was easier to do so.


Ergo why they developed nukes? Yeah, we're back to the same problem again. Gung-ho tends to make people edgy.


Tree wrote:
Idiot.


How creative.


Oh I could be creative, you thighbone climbing turd bender, you syphilis spurting smegma on a homosexual camel's anus, you drooling drongo wank farmer... I could be more creative, but you're not worth a wazz.



Tree wrote:
No one 'let' NK get a nuke, you functional moron. Not going to war with a nation =/= letting a nation arm


Go read a fucking dictionary, you ass, the word was used in a perfectly legitimate way.


A dictionary is going to tell me that "we let NK get a nuke" is it?

Oh wait, no you're talking out the wrong end of your digestive tract again.

Of course, in reality, no one 'let' NK get a nuke - in reality, much of the world has made it as difficult as possible for NK to get a nuke, and NK has paid an inordinately heavy price during development, and will continue to reap the diplomatic fall-out even if they sit down, shut up and don't issue so much as a squeak for another half century.

Of course, our reality - you know, the real one - is not the same as your much better reality that you simply dictate as you type.



Tree wrote:Yes, Bill Clinton and George Bush let (i.e. allow i.e. permit by neglect or oversight) the Kim regime get nukes and Barack Obama let the Kim regime continue to get more nukes. They did nothing to stop the regime. Not militarily or diplomatically, it was all a failure.


Whereas, in reality every single president, and a significant portion of the world, has worked year in year out to make it difficult for North Korea to get nukes, and to punish North Korea for their persistence.

It's not a failure to use peaceful, diplomatic methods to maintain peace. The failure is with Jong-un and his cronies, not others.


Tree wrote:Did I forget anything? Ah yes, go screw yourself you degenerate pile of garbage.


Yes, you forgot to get over yourself.


Tree wrote:
Folksy analogy time.


How would you describe the situation?


Maybe try something nautical - always a winner, eh?


Tree wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Ideology over reality, and sadly, that coup has already occurred.


If you honestly think the Democratic Party is not driven by any kind of ideology, you are terribly deluded.


Because, as we all know, I said that I think the Democratic Party (a political party) is not driven by political ideology (a political party driven by a political ideology, well I never?), and at the same time, I also mentioned that fish wearing hats like to eat strawberries while riding bikes.... if anyone else didn't actually notice me say these things, rest assured I certainly did, but the words may have become invisible or just gone on holiday in the mean-time and only Tree with his special powers of reading stuff that is invisible or not there could possibly be expected to see them and accurately report on those words... and of course, we all know that we can trust absolutely Tree's rendition of what other people have said.



Tree wrote:Why don't you go into how much money is being lost due to these burdensome regulations or how some regulations actually contribute to a crisis? Regulations like requiring banks to loan money to people who would never qualify for a loan in a free market. But hey, muh affordable housing I guess... Get a trailer or rent.


Why don't I talk about fish riding bicycles? I dunno Tree, I suppose I could but I didn't talk about that because it wasn't important for me to talk about fish riding bicycles, because I didn't think about fish riding bicycles, or have any interest in the bicycling behavior of fish. Of course, if YOU want to talk about fish riding bicycles - go right ahead!

Spoiler: the bicycle riding fish just so happen to be red herrings. :lol:
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:16 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3430Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Just to cover a few things, the economy has been growing in the US for the last ten years, and until the tax bill is enacted, the Donald's impact on our economy is really nonexistent.

MatthewLee wrote:We're talking about a man who appointed someone for the Secretary of Defense who's called "Mad Dog." Of course this sounds insane from any perspective but the reason American's came out at the polls and elected the unthinkable was very complex. It's not just bigoted heartland Evangelicals who were tired of gains for the Liberals... it was very, very complex.


Oh, and one of the main reasons the Donald one is simply because the Democrats picked such a terrible candidate. ~200 million people were register to vote in 2016, only 65 million voted for Clinton and only 63 million voted for the Donald (~ million voted third party). That leaves ~70 million people that register and stayed home. I guess that is what you get when the two major parties run the two most unpopular candidates in history.

MatthewLee wrote:Also remember when Same Sex marriage was legalized? As a Christian, I have no problem with this. I think that if as Christians we try to legislate our opinions and beliefs we are guilty of theocracy and that is a great evil. On the other hand... the legislation is beginning to penalize us for our faith. I don't know if you know this but when Same-Sex marriage was legalized it overturned 32 state Constitutions which all had amendments voted into them which defined marriage. Even one of the Supreme Court Justices (Scalia) called it "super-judicial tyranny." The process was subverted and the people weren't asked. They could have been shown the light and made the right choice but they weren't given the chance. The Supreme Court made the choice for them and now it's starting to become illegal to even express a dissenting opinion in your business. Freedom of conscience is now no longer expedient enough for our legislature. The common people are watching their country become a place which seems to penalize them for being working Christians. Since the majority of our population are in fact, just that, it was easy for the Republicans to take advantage of this and slide into office. The Democrats disenfranchised the majority on behalf of partisan gains. People are afraid and that is the climate in which people like Trump appear.


Also remember when Interracial Marriage was legalized? As a white guy, I have no problem with this. I think that if as white people we try to legislate our opinions and beliefs we are guilty of racism and that is a great evil. On the other hand... the legislation is beginning to penalize us for our belief. I don't know if you know this but when Interracial Marriage was legalized it overturned X state Constitutions which all had amendments voted into them which did not allow the races to marry. Even one of the Supreme Court Justices (Scalia) called it "super-judicial tyranny." The process was subverted and the people weren't asked. They could have been shown the light and made the right choice but they weren't given the chance. The Supreme Court made the choice for them and now it's starting to become illegal to even express a dissenting opinion in your business. Freedom of conscience is now no longer expedient enough for our legislature. The common people are watching their country become a place which seems to penalize them for being working racists. Since the majority of our population are in fact, just that, it was easy for the Republicans to take advantage of this and slide into office. The Democrats disenfranchised the majority on behalf of partisan gains. People are afraid and that is the climate in which people like Trump appear.


MatthewLee wrote:He has actually done a lot of what he said he would.


Image


Sparhafoc wrote:I don't see a clear relationship between the factors here as you've proposed. I think there was a protest vote, but it wasn't against the Democrats or against the economy... I think it was against Hilary Clinton. I think the only way that the Democrats could have lost running against Trump was by fielding her.


Bingo!
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:27 pm
YIM WWW
TreePosts: 221Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:08 pm Gender: Tree

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Sparhafoc wrote:I have established no causal connection between two actual historical facts, but Tree's crystal ball has established with absolute certainty that...


Trump's strategy could have easily taken care of the problem (of North Korea) with minimal losses if it was done 25 years ago.


I clearly need to read a guidebook on playing chess with pigeons, because I was unaware of that move! :)


I'm pointing out how military intervention can be the better option.

You're still hung up on the Iraq failure and you think that applies to every single intervention now. There is no justification from extrapolating one failed intervention to every single intervention there ever was or ever will be.

And of course, the very low bar I set is that nuclear weapons haven't been used in a military campaign,


What part of I expect better from US presidents don't you understand?

Yes, it's good no nukes have been dropped, at least not on human populated areas.
It's bad that a crazy dictator has them in the first place.

You still haven't explained how there's a causal relation between: a. US presidential action b. Kim regime not dropping a nuke

For all I know, Kim wouldn't have dropped a nuke anyway and I don't believe they will do that until at least they have many of them + solid delivery system through nuclear capable ICBMs.

not causing potentially hundreds of thousands of death, millions of victims, irradiated soil, and assorted other damage to the world - I mean, it's like I have no aspirations at all, right?


Read above and stop trying to sound over dramatic. It's not working.

See, what we really need to aspire to, according to Tree, is Rambo II. If you don't want to agree with the Tree, then it's obviously your responsibility to personally train in the ninja arts, stealthily infiltrate North Korea and personally assassinate Jong-un then walk away as the palace explodes. Remember, Tree is being perfectly serious in all his sweeping policy decisions he makes on the internet.


This is ludicrous and not even worth a response.

What a naive loon you are thinking that Trump's repetitive bellicose interactions with... well, every-fucking-one... is some kind of strategy rather than just his latent narcissistic aggression. Remember, Trump's taking names in the UN.... well, us countries other than the US want to make absolutely sure you can see the extended nature of our middle fingers. ;)


All Trump did was threaten to cut foreign aid to countries voting against USA's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move its embassy there.

Foreign aid is a privilege, it isn't something you have a right to.

These nations are the USA's actual allies. Spin it.. go on, spin how they're just hotbeds of communism, or pro-Islamic fundamentalists, or maybe just all members of atheism plus.... or any of the other mindless fucking gunge of inane well poisonings you spew here every time you open your figurative mouth.


Yup, they're US allies, they have also made some very bad decisions lately, the kind that lead to their own nations being undermined.

In reality, when your actual, real friends are telling you you're acting like a cunt, it behooves you to stop doing whatever it is and think.


Maybe you should first figure out who your friends and enemies are. The Palestinians or the OIC nations in general, not your friends. There is nothing to gain by siding with them against Israel. You can only lose doing that. You've lost your moral compass that you don't even realize you're siding with police states against the only democracy in the Middle East. The kind of police states who not only have aspirations to destroy Israel but have actually attempted it twice.

And you still wonder why the US and Israel are possibly moving away from the bogus two-state solution?

Didn't you notice what happens when your nation invades other nations? Remember Afghanistan? Remember that shit-show? Remember how the Afghans welcome you today with open arms? Remember how you are still paying for their national security? Remember the bodies of your youth sent home flags draped? Remember that, do you? Remember Iraq


Remember Nazi Germany, South Korea, Shinto Japan?

member their non-existent weapons of mass destruction we were absolutely sure they had and which thereby somehow gave us the right to pre-emptively attack them so they couldn't use those weapons? Remember that do you? Remember what happened after?


Not applicable in NK's case which actually does have WMDs and they don't even make it a secret.

Remember how Iraqi murdered Iraqi because we didn't bother considering minor things like history, traditions, culture, or a single damn thing about the place we invaded and chronically destablized?


Yup, Iraq might have worked better split into 3 countries and with more secular constitutions. I didn't hear Democrats suggest that. Now who's fault is it that history, traditions and culture weren't considered? Because anyone looking into that, to be fair and honest, would also have to acknowledge Islam's role in keeping Iraq backward similar to how Shintoism's role in keeping Japan backward was considered. But it wasn't done due to political correctness. Now Bush may not be a leftist, but he's equally idiotic as a leftist when it comes to Islam. He bought the lie from the start that Islam is a religion of peace (because you know, getting a non-biased advisor in Washington to read the Quran and hadiths for him is hard, it's easier to listen to leftists and apologists). Is it any wonder his policies failed so much? If your premises are wrong, then your conclusions are probably wrong as well.

garbage in - garbage out

Remember how that destabilization of the region eventually resulted in a new barbaric Caliphate arising hell bent on enacting some kind of 8th century wet dream?


ISIS rose during Obama's term.

If Bush was wrong for going in, then Obama was equally wrong for pulling out too soon. Once you're in, you have to finish the job, even if you think it was a bad call to go in.

Remember the bodies of your own... again with the bodies... and the flags....? Remember how your national treasure was spent on invading these countries, on maintaining peace against an occupied populace? Remember how tens of thousands of innocent civilians were killed, how hundreds of thousands lost their livelihoods, how millions were dispossessed, starved, hospitalized, bombed, and left without medical treatment for their families? Remember how it was all important because it meant that we ensured those weapons of mass destruction that didn't actually exist would never be used in the possible future in such a way as to possibly harm us? Remember that do you?


Here's the deal.

I'll agree that the US should completely pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan today if you agree that nobody from these two countries should ever be allowed into the US as either tourist or immigrant? That way we don't have to worry about terrorism since they will be contained to their regions more or less.

Deal? Oh wait, that won't work because your leftist buddies are constantly trying to block Trump's travel bans on phony grounds.

Of course, because you somehow simultaneously believe that the USA has the absolute right to do and say whatever it pleases, to whomever it pleases, in any tone it pleases... but those johnny foreigners have no say in their own affairs whatsoever.


See, this is exactly why I called you a NK stooge, because you're implying that the "johnny foreigners" (i.e. the North Korean people) actually DO have a say in their own affairs, they do not. They are not in any sense governed by their consent as the US or other republics are.

You're so gullible you're legitimizing Kim's regime and you don't even know it.

Diplomacy isn't about winning, you drongo; it's not a zero-fucking-sum game where the USA has ad hoc house rules. It's about ensuring we all understand each other so that devastating mistakes don't occur, it's about building cooperation and trust, and developing networks of relationships so that we don't need to go to war because we did that before, and it wasn't actually very nice.

All the other nations who agree to embargo North Korea aren't doing so because your silverback-in-chief is shaking his Twitter tree, it's because we've been talking about this shit for years and have been steadily ramping up the pressure - you know, actual strategy. That's what diplomacy is dribbler, that's what it can achieve; a united front from all the nations of the world is our modern reality; it's how shit gets done - not some solitary tweeting cowboy proclaiming himself the fastest gun-slinger in the West.


What have these sanctions actually achieved? They haven't stopped the Kim regime from getting nukes and they're clearly not stopping the Kim regime's ICBM program either.

Diplomacy is not a zero-sum game that's true, but for it to work you need to have both sides acting in good faith. It's how for example European nations can cooperate enough not to go to war with each other anymore, but a republic/democracy dealing with a tyrant nation - not so easy to be diplomatic with all the time.

The Kim side is not acting in good faith.

Damn this is so repetitive, I keep answering your points and you just repeat them a few posts later. Come up with better answers, you're wasting valuable time I could be using for more important things, like porn. Yes, even that is more important than your bullshit.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:54 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 189Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Look, President Trump is a highly capable individual who will continue to accomplish much in office. He is intelligent, articulate, and well regarded on the international stage, and a genius of untapped potential.
He is a paragon of virtue, with a moral fortitude worth admiring.
I would write more, but my nurse, Mrs Higginsbottom, is chasing me around the grounds of the asylum with my meds, and my trousers are around my ankles. I intend to climb a tree, and live out the rest of my life as a weasel.
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:22 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Tree wrote:I'm pointing out how military intervention can be the better option.


No, you were asserting in a clear declarative form that if a different event in the past had occurred, then the future would be exactly as you dictate. It's obviously utterly fucking non sensical, but it's also included in nearly every post you write. Yes, it's your much vaunted crystal ball.

As I told you in my 3rd of 4th reply to you when you joined this forum: you need to comprehend the distinction between your opinion and reality, because the two are not the same, and in your case they are apparently widely different.


Tree wrote:You're still hung up on the Iraq failure...


Hung up? :lol:

Let's just sweep it quietly under the rug as you seek to emulate the abject failings of the past.



Tree wrote:... and you think that applies to every single intervention now.


Intervention? Fuck your vacuous propaganda for ideology.

Invasion is the word you are talking about - I thought euphemisms were for snowflakes?



Tree wrote: There is no justification from extrapolating one failed intervention to every single intervention there ever was or ever will be.


Tree declaring factual reality again as if he has the slightest bit of fucking authority to make such a declaration. What you would mean if your head wasn't so far up your arse is 'I disagree' and if you weren't bloated with hubris you would then follow your statement of disagreement with an argument. But no, Tree just goes straight back to dictating reality. The fucking gospel according to Tree.




Tree wrote:
And of course, the very low bar I set is that nuclear weapons haven't been used in a military campaign,


What part of I expect better from US presidents don't you understand?


What part of fucking obvious evasion don't you understand?

And also remember to note that I couldn't give a flying fuck what your bar is because you're a mindless cretin who gibbers incessantly, what I care about is reasoned comprehension and analysis.



Tree wrote: Yes, it's good no nukes have been dropped, at least not on human populated areas.
It's bad that a crazy dictator has them in the first place.


Bad but not on any similar scale comparative to nuclear warfare.


Tree wrote:You still haven't explained how there's a causal relation between: a. US presidential action b. Kim regime not dropping a nuke


I've explained it to precisely the same degree to which you explain your counterfactual assertions, which is I declared it so, therefore it is. Don't like it? Learn to fucking discourse.


Tree wrote: For all I know, Kim wouldn't have dropped a nuke anyway and I don't believe they will do that until at least they have many of them + solid delivery system through nuclear capable ICBMs.


Great, you actually expressed one of your opinions as that, rather than framing it as if you were decreeing reality from the mount.

In similar vein, I also don't believe North Korea would ever actually use a nuclear weapon in terms of attacking any nation (let alone the USA), but I think the bets are off if they are invaded. I also think South Korea should have a very big fucking say in any military action on the peninsula considering their capital can be bombarded by artillery, and they're wide fucking open to being the site of any invasion deterrent destructive strategy.


Tree wrote:
not causing potentially hundreds of thousands of death, millions of victims, irradiated soil, and assorted other damage to the world - I mean, it's like I have no aspirations at all, right?


Read above and stop trying to sound over dramatic. It's not working.


Sorry if facts are inconvenient to your vacuous attempts at beating your little war drum.


Tree wrote:
See, what we really need to aspire to, according to Tree, is Rambo II. If you don't want to agree with the Tree, then it's obviously your responsibility to personally train in the ninja arts, stealthily infiltrate North Korea and personally assassinate Jong-un then walk away as the palace explodes. Remember, Tree is being perfectly serious in all his sweeping policy decisions he makes on the internet.


This is ludicrous and not even worth a response.


:lol:

So you responded.


Tree wrote:
What a naive loon you are thinking that Trump's repetitive bellicose interactions with... well, every-fucking-one... is some kind of strategy rather than just his latent narcissistic aggression. Remember, Trump's taking names in the UN.... well, us countries other than the US want to make absolutely sure you can see the extended nature of our middle fingers. ;)


All Trump did was threaten to cut foreign aid to countries voting against USA's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move its embassy there.

Foreign aid is a privilege, it isn't something you have a right to.


All he did was threaten his allies, you know, like he threatens North Korea, like he threatens other world leaders, like he threatens the press, like he threatens his perceived adversaries, like he threatens those investigating Russian collusion in the election, like he threatens everyone all the fucking time because he is so damn childish.

And you think it's a fucking strategy! :lol:

/facepalm

Wake up for fuck's sakes.



Tree wrote:
These nations are the USA's actual allies. Spin it.. go on, spin how they're just hotbeds of communism, or pro-Islamic fundamentalists, or maybe just all members of atheism plus.... or any of the other mindless fucking gunge of inane well poisonings you spew here every time you open your figurative mouth.


Yup, they're US allies, they have also made some very bad decisions lately, the kind that lead to their own nations being undermined.


Yup, it's all those nations being undermined by bad decisions, not yours! :lol:


Tree wrote:
In reality, when your actual, real friends are telling you you're acting like a cunt, it behooves you to stop doing whatever it is and think.


Maybe you should first figure out who your friends and enemies are.


Maybe you should already know if you weren't up your own fucking arse and desperate to fight the other?

Maybe, just maybe, they're the ones who have fought alongside you in most of your wars, who have traded with you for decades or even centuries, who routinely partake in high level cooperation... you know - those ones.... rather than basing it on whether they agree with your highly controversial and damaging position of one single foreign policy idea?

Of course, if you want to signal to all your allies that their only worth to you is to rubber stamp whatever you want them to do, you might find yourself losing friends rapidly because that's not how you treat friends at all.

There are many studied ways in which empires and civilizations collapse, but one universal factor is when they become isolated. You know - it's what we're doing to North Korea, right? So why are you supporting a guy who's doing this to your own nation? It's like Stockholm Syndrome for the ideologically fanatical.


Tree wrote:The Palestinians or the OIC nations in general, not your friends. There is nothing to gain by siding with them against Israel. You can only lose doing that. You've lost your moral compass that you don't even realize you're siding with police states against the only democracy in the Middle East. The kind of police states who not only have aspirations to destroy Israel but have actually attempted it twice.


We're not 'siding with them' you complete fucking loon - we're siding with reason, with carefully considered factors about the history of the region, with near universal agreement about the status of Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands. It's not 'us and them', you are repeating history with this idiocy. Reality is not binary, learn it and learn it now.


Tree wrote:And you still wonder why the US and Israel are possibly moving away from the bogus two-state solution?


Bogus? It's become bogus in your fragile little mind now that your dear leader has started ragging on it. How pathetic you are Tree.


Tree wrote:
Didn't you notice what happens when your nation invades other nations? Remember Afghanistan? Remember that shit-show? Remember how the Afghans welcome you today with open arms? Remember how you are still paying for their national security? Remember the bodies of your youth sent home flags draped? Remember that, do you? Remember Iraq


Remember Nazi Germany, South Korea, Shinto Japan?


Yes I do, plus I remember the many times you have evaded discussion in the past with these obvious whataboutisms. Remember? The dozen or so pages of exposing your repeated whataboutism... where you kept pretending you weren't doing exactly that?

Yeah well, whataboutit? Wave your hands Tree - a dormouse with an oxygen-starved brain might be momentarily distracted.


Tree wrote:
member their non-existent weapons of mass destruction we were absolutely sure they had and which thereby somehow gave us the right to pre-emptively attack them so they couldn't use those weapons? Remember that do you? Remember what happened after?


Not applicable in NK's case which actually does have WMDs and they don't even make it a secret.


Wholly irrelevant - you were fed bad reasons before, how do you know you're not being brainwashed again?

Quick tip: you are, in fact, being brainwashed again.


Tree wrote:
Remember how Iraqi murdered Iraqi because we didn't bother considering minor things like history, traditions, culture, or a single damn thing about the place we invaded and chronically destablized?


Yup, Iraq might have worked better split into 3 countries and with more secular constitutions. I didn't hear Democrats suggest that. Now who's fault is it that history, traditions and culture weren't considered? Because anyone looking into that, to be fair and honest, would also have to acknowledge Islam's role in keeping Iraq backward similar to how Shintoism's role in keeping Japan backward was considered. But it wasn't done due to political correctness. Now Bush may not be a leftist, but he's equally idiotic as a leftist when it comes to Islam. He bought the lie from the start that Islam is a religion of peace (because you know, getting a non-biased advisor in Washington to read the Quran and hadiths for him is hard, it's easier to listen to leftists and apologists). Is it any wonder his policies failed so much? If your premises are wrong, then your conclusions are probably wrong as well.


Gibbering lunacy in the form of a red herring. How very Tree.

Of course, it's just another avenue for Tree to express his hatred of a group of people, which is also amusingly very Tree. What a pitiful little man you are.


Tree wrote:garbage in - garbage out


Seems to just be garbage out with you.



Tree wrote:
Remember how that destabilization of the region eventually resulted in a new barbaric Caliphate arising hell bent on enacting some kind of 8th century wet dream?


ISIS rose during Obama's term.


And?

And go on.... please finish this obviously inane non-point.


Tree wrote:If Bush was wrong for going in, then Obama was equally wrong for pulling out too soon. Once you're in, you have to finish the job, even if you think it was a bad call to go in.


Do you ever stop and listen to yourself and think: hold on, what the fuck am I yammering about because this guy clearly doesn't consider me any kind of authority, yet all I keep doing is pretending I know bestest of bestest in everything!




Tree wrote:
Remember the bodies of your own... again with the bodies... and the flags....? Remember how your national treasure was spent on invading these countries, on maintaining peace against an occupied populace? Remember how tens of thousands of innocent civilians were killed, how hundreds of thousands lost their livelihoods, how millions were dispossessed, starved, hospitalized, bombed, and left without medical treatment for their families? Remember how it was all important because it meant that we ensured those weapons of mass destruction that didn't actually exist would never be used in the possible future in such a way as to possibly harm us? Remember that do you?


Here's the deal.

I'll agree that the US should completely pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan today if you agree that nobody from these two countries should ever be allowed into the US as either tourist or immigrant? That way we don't have to worry about terrorism since they will be contained to their regions more or less.


Why would I agree with your idiotic xenophobic wet-dreams? Sorry, you need to fuck off back to whatever blighted age you mentally exist in.


Tree wrote:Deal? Oh wait, that won't work because your leftist buddies are constantly trying to block Trump's travel bans on phony grounds.


'Phony' like the constitution! :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_cha ... challenges


Tree wrote:
Of course, because you somehow simultaneously believe that the USA has the absolute right to do and say whatever it pleases, to whomever it pleases, in any tone it pleases... but those johnny foreigners have no say in their own affairs whatsoever.


See, this is exactly why I called you a NK stooge, because you're implying that the "johnny foreigners" (i.e. the North Korean people) actually DO have a say in their own affairs, they do not. They are not in any sense governed by their consent as the US or other republics are.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh you laughable mutt.

You realize there's no logical pathway between me supposedly mistakenly or intentionally implying that the NK people have a say in their own affairs and me being a North Korean stooge?

I mean, of course, quite obviously anyone reading would know that I, in no way shape or form, ever even remotely made any comment about the North Korean people that could possibly be construed in the way you've asserted... but even were it the case, even if I was guilty then as charged, it still wouldn't indicate to anyone except a drooling numpty that I must therefore be a North Korean stooge.

You look clinically insane when you say such things, and the fact that you can't help yourself and need to repeat them again and again with not even the most elementary self-awareness speaks volumes about your thought processes.


Tree wrote:You're so gullible you're legitimizing Kim's regime and you don't even know it.


Of course, only Tree knows it because, as we've seen each time you've tried this, no one else would actually spot the supposed intimation only you appear able to divine in my words. :lol:

You just keep going full crackpot, dontcha?


Tree wrote:
Diplomacy isn't about winning, you drongo; it's not a zero-fucking-sum game where the USA has ad hoc house rules. It's about ensuring we all understand each other so that devastating mistakes don't occur, it's about building cooperation and trust, and developing networks of relationships so that we don't need to go to war because we did that before, and it wasn't actually very nice.

All the other nations who agree to embargo North Korea aren't doing so because your silverback-in-chief is shaking his Twitter tree, it's because we've been talking about this shit for years and have been steadily ramping up the pressure - you know, actual strategy. That's what diplomacy is dribbler, that's what it can achieve; a united front from all the nations of the world is our modern reality; it's how shit gets done - not some solitary tweeting cowboy proclaiming himself the fastest gun-slinger in the West.


What have these sanctions actually achieved? They haven't stopped the Kim regime from getting nukes and they're clearly not stopping the Kim regime's ICBM program either.


What they've achieved is a unified purpose against North Korea that even China has joined. There's a global agreement that puts North Korea squarely in the path of the entire fucking world. That's actually a significant achievement when it comes to the wide diversity of opinion between all the nations of this world.

What they've achieved is making life very difficult for the regime - sadly, this does also ensure that the people suffer the worst, but at least part of the hope of extreme embargoes would be to make the regime squeak, have the people overthrow it - so this would be considered a 'process', not something to write off long before it comes to a conclusion.

Finally, we've ensured that NK has very limited access to technology, parts, and even raw resources. This has dramatically hampered their weaponry development and will continue to do so - it's not like they're ever going to arrive at parity even within their region in terms of technological and military prowess. Mostly, the entire composition of their forces, of the way they think and act is defensive - the Jong-uns want their little fiefdom left to their own rule, but they've shown no competence whatsoever at expansion if this is really what they were after.

Regardless, the world is set against them, and regardless of whether you comprehend this or not, the USA is much, much better off being a member of that united group of nations than unilaterally jumping into every foreign situation boots first. Fervour tempered by wisdom.


Tree wrote:Diplomacy is not a zero-sum game that's true, but for it to work you need to have both sides acting in good faith.


Well, no not really. You have to have both sides able to accrue a benefit from it.


Tree wrote: It's how for example European nations can cooperate enough not to go to war with each other anymore, but a republic/democracy dealing with a tyrant nation - not so easy to be diplomatic with all the time.


If diplomacy was easy, it would just be called having a chin-wag.


Tree wrote:The Kim side is not acting in good faith.


No, but then no side ever acts wholly in 'good faith' in the sense you mean - they act for their best interests. The kooky thing about North Korea is how it's willing to sacrifice its best interests for some other perceived benefit. It's actually not done them a jot of good.


Tree wrote:Damn this is so repetitive, I keep answering your points and you just repeat them a few posts later. Come up with better answers, you're wasting valuable time I could be using for more important things, like porn. Yes, even that is more important than your bullshit.


No one's obliging you to keep waggling your willy at me - maybe if you learned to discourse this would be a more pleasurable experience for you.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:16 pm
CollecemallPosts: 376Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:53 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

Rather than replying I'm going to encourage Mathew to read what HWIN wrote again. If you thought he was calling you a racist you completely missed the point. But one might wonder why the racism sticks out yet the bigotry it was derived from is tolerable to you?
"Every man is a creature of the age in which he lives, and few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of their time."
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ~~Voltaire
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:26 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: What to do about North Korea?

MatthewLee wrote:It's not just heartland that is acting this way. The 'progressives' will assault you, and I mean this with no hyperbole, for wearing a MAGA Hat in public. You will be hit or have your hat stolen for daring to express yourself in public...


I... are you sure that's not hyperbole?

You make it sound like a routine occurrence. Do you have a source for this contention?


MatthewLee wrote:... and to simply defend Trump is enough to to have people accuse you of being a Nazi, a racist, a misogynist or some other kind of irreversible label which ends all possible discussion.


While that may well happen, one has to also remember that Nazis, racists and misogynists actively support Donald Trump and vice-versa. While not everyone who supports him is so, an inordinate number of the scum has oozed out from between the cracks to sun themselves in the public light.

Calling someone something like that to close down conversation is bad, but calling a Nazi, racist, or misogynist those labels is perfectly acceptable.


MatthewLee wrote: The country is tearing itself apart from the inside because of a struggle which is intractable and neither side will compromise. They made it so that conservatives could no longer express their opinions in public without being called all the terrible 'ists' or 'phobes' in the world so they expressed themselves at the voting booth.


Again, I feel you are making sweeping claims in the absence of any substantive support. Who is 'they'? How often does this actually occur? Is it just that racist, white-supremacist Nazi spades are being called racist, white-supremacist Nazi spades?


MatthewLee wrote:For example...

he_who_is_nobody saw me defending Trump and instantly decided to let me know what a jerk I am with amazingly vitriolic rhetoric. This is my favorite part...


Sorry, but your examples doesn't show what you are using it to exemplify. HWIN is not calling you a racist, he's showing how well your logic works when applied to another human rights scenario - it's a form of reductio ad absurdum - and the idea, I assume, is to make you consider whether your words are worthy or not.

What he did not do, however, is call you a racist or point any form of vitriolic rhetoric in your direction.

So if this is the only example you provide of your contentions of poor Conservatives being beaten and bullied in public, it seems you've rather undermined your own point.



MatthewLee wrote:See, now because I defended Trump and expressed a Christian faith I got called racist.


No, you didn't.


MatthewLee wrote: Now I know he was trying to establish a link between Christian ideas which differ from those of the public dialogue but what he literally did was substitute the word "Christian" with the word "Racist" and this is what we deal with every day in America. There is no middle ground. White, Christian people are automatically by default homophobic, racist bigots exercising unfair privilege. I'm going to address this presently.


Again, you clearly misunderstand the point of his post. He's not saying that Christian is synonymous with racist - you've wholly misunderstood. He's showing that if you replace certain words of your text, that the logic to you then is unacceptable, so it should impact on how you perceive what you previously wrote.

Clearly he in no way whatsoever called you anything at all.


MatthewLee wrote:There is only non-substantive rhetoric by partisan interests which will burn the whole place down to get what they want. Worst of all, none of them actually know what they want until Facebook tells them.


To try and draw something of value from this misconstrued post, I agree that social media is a major catalyst in the generational hyper-partisanship that's developed over the last couple of decades. On the other hand, you have to look at the role of the media like Fox who routinely spout absolute insanity at their viewership, for example in the form of Glenn Beck, telling their audience a bunch of whacky crackpot conspiracy bullshit as if it were fact.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:57 am
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