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Dealing with the incel menace...

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Dealing with the incel menace...
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LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Gnug215 wrote:I honestly doubt authenticity and actual emotional satisfaction is the true desire of these people.


I'm not certain. I mean I'm no psychologist, but I think there is an over emphasis on their entire emotional satisfaction resting on attaining a relationship. When these people inevitably project desperation to the women in their lives and end up being rejected by them they start to blame women instead of looking in the mirror.

The more resentment they feel towards women the less attractive they become, and so on. Untill they explode with rage at the people that rejected them.

It's an over emphasis on having a relationship, combined with a total lack of self awareness and reflection. If anything these people need to reduce the emphasis on a relationship being the crux of their well being.

I think these people probably do crave genuine affection and connection with people, but shoot themselves in the foot dramatically then start shooting other people in retaliation.

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Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:38 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2673Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Laurens wrote:
Gnug215 wrote:I honestly doubt authenticity and actual emotional satisfaction is the true desire of these people.


I'm not certain. I mean I'm no psychologist, but I think there is an over emphasis on their entire emotional satisfaction resting on attaining a relationship. When these people inevitably project desperation to the women in their lives and end up being rejected by them they start to blame women instead of looking in the mirror.

The more resentment they feel towards women the less attractive they become, and so on. Untill they explode with rage at the people that rejected them.

It's an over emphasis on having a relationship, combined with a total lack of self awareness and reflection. If anything these people need to reduce the emphasis on a relationship being the crux of their well being.

I think these people probably do crave genuine affection and connection with people, but shoot themselves in the foot dramatically then start shooting other people in retaliation.

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Oh, I do think they crave a relationship, or whatever they think a relationship is, but I don't think these people know what a real relationship is. I doubt they would want one if they knew.

But yeah, there is indeed a lack of self-awareness and self-reflection. Those are the kind of things one should be taught in school, tbh.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:05 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Gnug215 wrote:Oh, I do think they crave a relationship, or whatever they think a relationship is, but I don't think these people know what a real relationship is. I doubt they would want one if they knew.

But yeah, there is indeed a lack of self-awareness and self-reflection. Those are the kind of things one should be taught in school, tbh.


I agree. I think perhaps these people equate a relationship with cohabitation with someone who will feed you and let you bang them on demand. Lots of emotional infants out there sadly...

Which leads to the second point. Absolutely people ought to be taught to manage their emotions, and control their ego. I believe that we are fucked unless something like that begins to happen soon. There's way too much anger and hatred going on, and we really shouldn't be excited to see where that road goes...

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Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:22 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2673Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Laurens wrote:
Gnug215 wrote:Oh, I do think they crave a relationship, or whatever they think a relationship is, but I don't think these people know what a real relationship is. I doubt they would want one if they knew.

But yeah, there is indeed a lack of self-awareness and self-reflection. Those are the kind of things one should be taught in school, tbh.


I agree. I think perhaps these people equate a relationship with cohabitation with someone who will feed you and let you bang them on demand. Lots of emotional infants out there sadly...

Which leads to the second point. Absolutely people ought to be taught to manage their emotions, and control their ego. I believe that we are fucked unless something like that begins to happen soon. There's way too much anger and hatred going on, and we really shouldn't be excited to see where that road goes...

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I actually think psychopathy, and other related deficiencies (including those that would make someone an incel), will start to be screened for in the not too distant future. Then they'll either be fixed or just purged.

And so, in the future, we would never see a Trump become president... or be born in the first place.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:21 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Gnug215 wrote:I actually think psychopathy, and other related deficiencies (including those that would make someone an incel), will start to be screened for in the not too distant future. Then they'll either be fixed or just purged.

And so, in the future, we would never see a Trump become president... or be born in the first place.


Interesting. I'm personally sceptical of whether our current trajectory would reach such utopian heights, but it's interesting to speculate. It would answer a lot of questions about the extent to which a serial killer is pre determined by their genes.

Also how do you enforce it? Say for instance the mother who says "I don't care if my child is a psychopath I don't want people to interfere with their personality" do we allow them to bring a psychopath into the world? Is that a step back for women's rights?

Probably a bit off topic, but would be an interesting discussion.



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Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:19 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3178Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Greetings,

With all due respect, I think you're both mistaking how psychopathy/sociopathy occurs.

Although sociopathy has a genetic basis, it has to be triggered by environmental factors.

The mislabelled "warrior" gene is in the "off" position at birth, and is switched on by extreme trauma - usually through extreme, persistent violence at the hands of one or both parents. In reality, it switches off one's ability to feel pain, and thus to empathize with another's pain. As a result, the sociopath can torture someone without feeling anything. It's been speculated that what they're really trying to do is self-medicate - to re-enable their ability to feel pain by making another scream so much that, as the saying goes, "her scream went through me", effectively "waking" them out of their empathic slumber.

Another contributor to this, in the case of psychopathy, is where the parents are inconsistent - one day they praise the child for doing something, the next they punish the child for doing the same thing. The child is unable to infer rules, and grows up without being able to distinguish right from wrong: they'd as soon kill you as say "hello". As a result, they display inappropriate behaviour - laughing when they should be sombre, etc. It should be noted that damage to he pre-frontal cortex can result in similar behaviour, which would indicate that psychopaths have similarly damaged pre-frontal cortexes.

If any of that makes sense.

So, in reality, it's alright for people to be born with those "sociopathic" genes: they evolved at some time in our past to enable humans to psychologically survive extreme trauma.

To deal with incels, and - more specifically - those who are emotionally immature, one needs to address their lack of socialization. Proper sex education ("above the neck") addresses this, not just the biology of sex. Other programs that encourage children to get out of the house, and play with others - rather than the home-schooling attitude of trying to maintain control of the childrens' minds by keeping them in, and away from other children (ie, other ideas) - to give them as rounded a personality as possible, to make them "bomb-proof" in various social environments, is what's needed.

Kindest regards,

James
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Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:13 pm
ExogenPosts: 56Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

If you ask me the problem is ugliness due to improper development. INITIAL sexual attraction is driven primarily by looks, and secondarily by behavioral characteristics and then personality. So looks go a long way, though they aren't the whole pie, just a large portion of it. Look at these incel dudes and you see overweight,t pudgy, estrogenic looking guys, with facial features that are not masculine biologically speaking. They may be baldering, and all these depart from the masculine archetype.

Thus, the closer you get to that archetype the more women want you. So what these guys need is an improvement in looks, improvement in body language, and inner game to top it off, as well as confidence in their personality.

The so-called 'model' look of high cheekbones, a strong jaw, etc, are all features which are prominent if the skull is developed correctly. Mostly everyone is the developed world and elsewhere increasingly, are deformed facially to one degree or another due to improper facial posture. This is known as craniofacial dystrophy. This can be corrected in children easily and even to some degree in adults via the field of Orthotropics, as well as more obvious solutions like orthodontic or plastic surgery.

Incell guys need to lose weight, get their testosterone up by eating and training right, work on their body language and posture, work on their confidence and personality, and fix their face. If they do those things, even without money and status, although those things help too, even just dressing better, MORE WOMEN WILL WANT THEM.

But they have to work on that.

The lie we have been told is that genetics plays a huge role here. IT does, but not as much as you think. So much of it is due to lifestyle due to the development and the body not developing correctly.

Watch this lecture by Dr. Mew on Orthotropics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhXPh5N5XN8
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:56 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2673Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

With all due respect, I think you're both mistaking how psychopathy/sociopathy occurs.

Although sociopathy has a genetic basis, it has to be triggered by environmental factors.

The mislabelled "warrior" gene is in the "off" position at birth, and is switched on by extreme trauma - usually through extreme, persistent violence at the hands of one or both parents. In reality, it switches off one's ability to feel pain, and thus to empathize with another's pain. As a result, the sociopath can torture someone without feeling anything. It's been speculated that what they're really trying to do is self-medicate - to re-enable their ability to feel pain by making another scream so much that, as the saying goes, "her scream went through me", effectively "waking" them out of their empathic slumber.

Another contributor to this, in the case of psychopathy, is where the parents are inconsistent - one day they praise the child for doing something, the next they punish the child for doing the same thing. The child is unable to infer rules, and grows up without being able to distinguish right from wrong: they'd as soon kill you as say "hello". As a result, they display inappropriate behaviour - laughing when they should be sombre, etc. It should be noted that damage to he pre-frontal cortex can result in similar behaviour, which would indicate that psychopaths have similarly damaged pre-frontal cortexes.

If any of that makes sense.

So, in reality, it's alright for people to be born with those "sociopathic" genes: they evolved at some time in our past to enable humans to psychologically survive extreme trauma.

To deal with incels, and - more specifically - those who are emotionally immature, one needs to address their lack of socialization. Proper sex education ("above the neck") addresses this, not just the biology of sex. Other programs that encourage children to get out of the house, and play with others - rather than the home-schooling attitude of trying to maintain control of the childrens' minds by keeping them in, and away from other children (ie, other ideas) - to give them as rounded a personality as possible, to make them "bomb-proof" in various social environments, is what's needed.

Kindest regards,

James



Well yes, I knew about the environmental part, but I think the genetic part will still be genetically removed in the future. This should probably also in time get rid of a fair number of horrible, negligent parents, methinks.

At any rate. I do think in the future, more energy will be spent on "psychologically" educating kids. I'm already seeing a bit of that at my daughter's school. It may seem a bit like wishy washy stuff, but I think it might just do some good.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:02 pm
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Exogen wrote:If you ask me the problem is ugliness due to improper development. INITIAL sexual attraction is driven primarily by looks, and secondarily by behavioral characteristics and then personality. So looks go a long way, though they aren't the whole pie, just a large portion of it. Look at these incel dudes and you see overweight,t pudgy, estrogenic looking guys, with facial features that are not masculine biologically speaking. They may be baldering, and all these depart from the masculine archetype.

Thus, the closer you get to that archetype the more women want you. So what these guys need is an improvement in looks, improvement in body language, and inner game to top it off, as well as confidence in their personality.

...

Incell guys need to lose weight, get their testosterone up by eating and training right, work on their body language and posture, work on their confidence and personality, and fix their face. If they do those things, even without money and status, although those things help too, even just dressing better, MORE WOMEN WILL WANT THEM.

But they have to work on that.

...


I'm not sure that any of this is really true. One can see it as an averages game, but it's a bit of a spherical cow in a vacuum; an abstract of reality, not reality itself. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, and even someone far from a description of good looks can still be very successful with the other sex due to their behavioral attractiveness.

Similarly, while some physical characteristics may well be desired more on average, something far from that ideal can also be conceived of as attractive by many. Balding is actually a very good example as it is often correlated with sexiness; some women would not find it attractive, some find it a real turn-on.

For me, there is a very important cultural component when it comes to perception of physical attractiveness. It's perhaps most clearly seen when looking back at our own culture's past where ideals of beauty diverge far from our norms - I always think of the consumptive look of the Victorian era where the height of ideal beauty was basically the look of someone dying of tuberculosis.

Today in parts of S.E. Asia, you find many examples of very beautiful (according to their culture's standards) women with not so good looking (according to the culture's standards) men where such less physically attractive men are seen as more stable and steady than the good-looking playboy types.

I think it's too general to put all the load here on physical qualities; I think it's far more realistic to consider personal and social behaviors to be the real decider in finding someone who considers you attractive. Therein, I think there's a vicious circle where unattractive behavior results in lack of romantic attention which further results in behaviors that are even less appealing. Most incels need help to break the cycles they've set for themselves.
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Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:20 pm
ExogenPosts: 56Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

@ Sparhafoc,

yeah, I'm less likely to buy into that at this point. Don't get me wrong here, for the longest I've thought things like game and numbers would matter more for men, but I've come to appreciate all that in the context of looks and body language primarily, as the driving force behind attraction.

Enough studies is psychology back this up with regard to babies looking at faces which greater approximate the golden ratio. Faces that are more symmetrical and have certain proportions, all of which is correlated with health and hormonal balance, sexual dysmorphism. Even in your own experience, if you look at the guys women are highly 'attracted' to (not merely guys they might date because they have money or status or the promise of either) you will notice they always fall into the same category of those features. Maybe some women might want a guy that in that regard looks more like a 'boy' or more like a 'man' but the features are still the same.

I also think the social behavior thing is a mistaken. Not saying ti doesn't play a role, but it isn't as big a role in driving attraction.

Think of it like this.

Imagine two men walk into a bar, both are average dudes, not insecure, but not masters of gab either.

One is good looking, the other is ugly as all hell.

Who will the women be more attracted to?
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:49 pm
Sparhafoc
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Posts: 2443Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Exogen wrote:Think of it like this.

Imagine two men walk into a bar, both are average dudes, not insecure, but not masters of gab either.

One is good looking, the other is ugly as all hell.

Who will the women be more attracted to?



Well, most of them would be attracted to the good-looking guy.


But then, posit the other way:

Imagine two men walk into a bar, both are average dudes in looks but one has a cheeky grin, a way with words, and a suite of charming behaviors.

Who will women be more attracted to?

Most would be attracted to the charming guy.


Then try it out again...

Imagine two men walk into a bar, one is really quite handsome but is dull, speaks in monosyllables and seems only passionate about football, while the other is vastly less handsome but has a cheeky grin, a way with words, and a suite of charming behaviors.

Who will women be more attracted to?

Probably a much more even distribution. Some women would still go for the hunk, regardless of his lack of personality. Some women may approach because of his good looks, but then find the witty chap next to him far more fun to focus on. Still others might not trust anyone that handsome... and yet others might feel insecure at his good looks and consider him outside their scope.

That's why I find it a very complicated notion to generalize from.

Nowt queer as folk
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:40 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Exogen wrote:If you ask me the problem is ugliness due to improper development. INITIAL sexual attraction is driven primarily by looks, and secondarily by behavioral characteristics and then personality. So looks go a long way, though they aren't the whole pie, just a large portion of it. Look at these incel dudes and you see overweight,t pudgy, estrogenic looking guys, with facial features that are not masculine biologically speaking. They may be baldering, and all these depart from the masculine archetype.

Thus, the closer you get to that archetype the more women want you. So what these guys need is an improvement in looks, improvement in body language, and inner game to top it off, as well as confidence in their personality.

The so-called 'model' look of high cheekbones, a strong jaw, etc, are all features which are prominent if the skull is developed correctly. Mostly everyone is the developed world and elsewhere increasingly, are deformed facially to one degree or another due to improper facial posture. This is known as craniofacial dystrophy. This can be corrected in children easily and even to some degree in adults via the field of Orthotropics, as well as more obvious solutions like orthodontic or plastic surgery.

Incell guys need to lose weight, get their testosterone up by eating and training right, work on their body language and posture, work on their confidence and personality, and fix their face. If they do those things, even without money and status, although those things help too, even just dressing better, MORE WOMEN WILL WANT THEM.

But they have to work on that.

The lie we have been told is that genetics plays a huge role here. IT does, but not as much as you think. So much of it is due to lifestyle due to the development and the body not developing correctly.

Watch this lecture by Dr. Mew on Orthotropics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhXPh5N5XN8
I think the getting in shape thing is important for sure.

I always used to carry a lot of weight, this affected my self esteem and confidence, and it also led to an attitude of feeling like I had to dig my claws in on any female attention I got because I didn't know if I'd have another chance. Of course this led me down lots of hopeless paths, and resulted in a 4 year relationship with someone that I wasn't compatible with just because I didn't think I'd have another opportunity.

Now I've shifted the weight, I realise that I'm attractive to lots of people. If one woman doesn't reciprocate my romantic interest, that's fine, others will. It makes it easier to be respectful in the face of rejection.

Not only that but I really don't care that I'm single. I feel happy. I'm doing my own thing. Exercise has reduced my stress levels dramatically.

So I've stopped projecting all this neediness. I've stopped placing too much weight on having someone else in my life. I'm more focused on myself. And guess what? I already have had a few people who are really attracted to me. I didn't reciprocate the feelings for them, but it's more female attention than I'm used to in the space of a few months. But that's not the point, it's about creating a life for yourself that you enjoy without needing validation from someone.

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Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:25 am
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