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Dealing with the incel menace...

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Dealing with the incel menace...
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TreePosts: 230Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:08 pm Gender: Tree

Post Dealing with the incel menace...

So four years after the Elliot Rodger attack, we see another attack, this time in Canada, from another self-described "incel" which basically means people who can't get laid and are very angry about it. I believe there was also a lesser known incel murderer in the UK shortly after Rodger but I don't remember if that was serious enough to describe as a terrorist attack.

This isn't anywhere as big of a deal as people make it out to be, no it's not "systemic" and it's not ISIS-scale terrorism, but it is something that will need to be addressed somehow, perhaps in ways that will benefit the normal people too, a serious conversation on prostitution and the role of government is needed.

What's clear to me is that the people most vocal about incels have no idea what to do.

There are social conservatives on one hand, people like Jordan Peterson who say a return to monogamy will fix the issue. I don't think that's the case, if you can't even get a date, then don't expect marriage, it's just not happening since dating is the first step to marriage. I also cannot agree with the idea that somehow a free market of sex leads to a handful of men getting all the women, that's just not happening. At worst this just means men may have to wait their turn (assuming they have the basic social skills for a relationship), relationships come and go, even rich successful men are not going to hold multiple women at once and certainly not for life. Ask yourself how many women to do you know who would be okay with being with someone for life who openly cheats on them? Besides, a true free market of sex would include prostitution. So even if some men got multiple women, there would be women open to sleeping with multiple men EVERY DAY.

If anything monogamy would make it even harder to get sex.


Then there's the feminists. I honestly can't believe anyone seriously thinks that third wave style male-bashing feminism is somehow going to get angry virgin men to stop being angry virgins. Come on, it's basic common sense that if someone is a failure in life and they're angry because of it, calling them "privileged" or telling them to "check their privilege" is only going to infuriate them even further. Then there is the laughable suggestion that "you don't actually need sex" as if abstinence ever worked. Suddenly, leftist feminists turn into puritans when it suits them.

A common suggestion feminists also make is that we simply teach men that they're not entitled to sex, which would be a good way to go about it if personal liberty was actually a feminist value. It is not, so it would be a hard point to sell coming from a feminist. It would seem far more credible and honest coming from a libertarian or small government conservative. Our current societies shower people with entitlements and they do this by taking money from other more productive higher income people: food stamps, housing welfare, medical welfare, welfare for having kids out of wedlock, government run pension plans etc.

In one extreme case, Greece, you can even get welfare for being a pedophile or some other form of degenerate now classed as a disability. Cause you know, pay up that protection tax or they'll get your kids or something.

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/118903 ... even-plaut


Feminists (particularly of the body positivity variety) also may believe the following:
- fat people are entitled to the same affection thin people get, you're a "bigot" if you don't date fat people
- women are entitled to the commitment of men, men aren't allowed to simply desire them sexually, the whole "objectification" nonsense which can be summed up to "you're evil if you find her hot".
- women are entitled to equal outcomes to men even if they don't put in the same effort or have the same interests (they must be reserve 50% of political office seats, 50% of CEO positions)

So it is any wonder incels just take this a step further and think they're entitled to sex without putting the effort for it?

From a far left perspective that puts happiness over liberty and equality of outcome over merit, what exactly would be morally wrong in say having the government tax people in order to pay for hookers for incels? Incels are simply another interest group trying to exploit an ever expanding government and trying to put the burden on society to fix their problem. As Sargon of Akkad pointed out, incels are basically sex communists.

I don't think they can be opposed effectively without an appreciation for liberty.


There are also legitimate concerns that some incels have. For one thing, why is prostitution illegal? It shouldn't be. I'm not saying it works for everyone, there are clearly a lot of incels too proud to pay for sex, but it would reduce the number of incels and at least then they won't have a single excuse. People with no social skills will just have to get a job and they'll be able to have sex free from any government intervention if they contribute to society enough.

Feminists keep forgetting, just because you're not entitled to sex, doesn't mean you're not entitled to pursue it through voluntary interaction. They should read the Declaration of Independence. Sadly, most feminists hate freedom and most of them oppose prostitution even if it's voluntary and doesn't involve trafficking.

Another way to reduce the number of incels is to be realistic about male/female differences. They are not equal. They will never be fully equal. Women want certain things in a relationship, certain personality traits like being assertive. Telling men that "genders are equal" and you just need to "be yourself" is doing them a great disservice and peddling lies in the name of an impossible utopia.
Sun May 27, 2018 2:01 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

There is no 'return to monogamy'. Homo sapiens' sexual anatomy is clearly suited to a polygamous environment, from penis and testicle size to sperm production, to lack of oestrus cycles. One can't 'return' to something that never actually happened.

Secondly, people talk about 'third wave feminism' but actually they're talking about 'fourth wave' which is pretty much an internet phenomenon.

The term 'degenerate' is purely a value judgment and has no bearing whatsoever on any rational assessment of normative behaviors.

Given it's supposed to be a thread about male incels, it's remarkably odd how it spends the majority of its words on bashing a minority of women who have very little influence on anything anyway.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sun May 27, 2018 3:15 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

As for 'what to do about it', there are several possible responses.

First, there'd be a need to really look into identifying the problem in terms of defining it unarbitrarily and assessing what is causing it using empirical measurement. It is not normal to grow murderously angry about social relationships. There is a psychological element here, and there would be a psychological response, presumably counseling.

Secondly, I think one would need to look at the role the internet plays in generating radical behavior, largely through echo-chambers and anonymity. There's a long and highly disjointed path between feeling rejected, failing to get a sexual partner to writing about your hatred and engaging in the murder of people. This is, again, psychological, and it is a phenomenon being studied largely under the paradigm of terrorist radicalization on the internet.

Thirdly, I think we'd need to look at the cultures in which this phenomenon occurs, and wonder whether there's an unhealthy fixation on the sex act. Why doesn't this occur in other cultures? Perhaps there's a way to identify some aspects of the culture that need to be challenged.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sun May 27, 2018 3:20 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

why is prostitution illegal?


It's not.

Image


Even in many of the nations its officially illegal, there are often perfectly legal work-arounds, such as one-night marriages. Similarly, plenty of those nations where its officially illegal, prostitution is widely available and far from hidden from view - S.E. Asian nations are good examples of this, and many of the more famous prostitution areas in those countries are run by the police.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sun May 27, 2018 3:23 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Women want certain things in a relationship, certain personality traits like being assertive.


Listen up women. This is what you want. You've been told. :lol:
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sun May 27, 2018 3:45 pm
TreePosts: 230Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:08 pm Gender: Tree

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Sparhafoc wrote:
Women want certain things in a relationship, certain personality traits like being assertive.


Listen up women. This is what you want. You've been told. :lol:


Not even remotely what was said, I'm just observing a pattern.

Part of fixing incels would involve seeing what kind of men most women like and then changing those incels' personalities and improving their social skills based on those successful men. If we instead pretend to not see any patterns because it doesn't fit the regressive narrative, I can't see much good coming out of it.

Even in many of the nations its officially illegal, there are often perfectly legal work-arounds, such as one-night marriages. Similarly, plenty of those nations where its officially illegal, prostitution is widely available and far from hidden from view - S.E. Asian nations are good examples of this, and many of the more famous prostitution areas in those countries are run by the police.


I would agree with you, in my talks arguing with online incels I've always suggested that they simply take the risk because the benefits, especially in their case, outweigh the risks.

Those risks however should not exist. This is not a legitimate use of government power. If a crime does not involve the initiation of force or fraud, then it shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Negative liberty should be sacred.

Secondly, I think one would need to look at the role the internet plays in generating radical behavior, largely through echo-chambers and anonymity. There's a long and highly disjointed path between feeling rejected, failing to get a sexual partner to writing about your hatred and engaging in the murder of people. This is, again, psychological, and it is a phenomenon being studied largely under the paradigm of terrorist radicalization on the internet.


The worst place for an incel to be on the Internet is an incel reddit.

They are not genuine support groups, it's just reinforcing the victim complex and hatred for the "normies". I don't believe anyone has ever gotten laid with the "advice" found on those forums.

Thirdly, I think we'd need to look at the cultures in which this phenomenon occurs, and wonder whether there's an unhealthy fixation on the sex act. Why doesn't this occur in other cultures? Perhaps there's a way to identify some aspects of the culture that need to be challenged.


Unhealthy would be for someone to still desire lots of sex after he's already getting it regularly.

Can we say that someone has an alcohol problem if he never drinks any?

The problem lies more in the method. You can desire lots of money for instance, in that regard, there is no difference between the investor and the crook. That's fine you work for it and understand that freedom to pursue it doesn't guarantee the desired outcome, but not fine if your idea of making money is robbing banks or scamming people.
Sun May 27, 2018 8:45 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Tree wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Listen up women. This is what you want. You've been told. :lol:


Not even remotely what was said, I'm just observing a pattern.


Ahh I see. So you've observed a pattern in a statistically significant percentage of the 3.5 billion women on the planet, have you?

Must've taken you an inordinate amount of research to make such confident declarations - fancy sharing your data and methodology?

No, it's simply wrong to declare this - believing that there's a single thing that makes you attractive to all women is part of the problem; a fantasy foisted off in commercials. It's just not that simple, women as a whole are just not that simple, attraction and relationships are just not that simple. We can't solve anything by employing bad ideas.


Tree wrote:Part of fixing incels would involve seeing what kind of men most women like and then changing those incels' personalities and improving their social skills based on those successful men.


No, that's nonsense.

Most women don't want 1 thing. You cannot find one characteristic to 'fix' to make most women attracted to most men. That's about as far from reality as is imaginable.

However, improving one's social skills is an actual functioning idea, albeit one which requires looking at more than just what an idealized woman wants.


Tree wrote: If we instead pretend to not see any patterns because it doesn't fit the regressive narrative, I can't see much good coming out of it.


Yet you want to claim it would be good to manufacture patterns from your navel guff and employ them as if they reflected reality?

Yeah, can't see any good coming out of that either.



Tree wrote:
Even in many of the nations its officially illegal, there are often perfectly legal work-arounds, such as one-night marriages. Similarly, plenty of those nations where its officially illegal, prostitution is widely available and far from hidden from view - S.E. Asian nations are good examples of this, and many of the more famous prostitution areas in those countries are run by the police.


I would agree with you, in my talks arguing with online incels I've always suggested that they simply take the risk because the benefits, especially in their case, outweigh the risks.

Those risks however should not exist. This is not a legitimate use of government power. If a crime does not involve the initiation of force or fraud, then it shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Negative liberty should be sacred.


I agree even as someone who doesn't and never has used prostitutes. There is no reason for a government to stop a woman trading her body for cash if customers are willing to pay. The government shouldn't be in the moral policing business. It should be focused solely on ensuring her safety, and ensuring the health standards of the place she works.



Tree wrote:
Secondly, I think one would need to look at the role the internet plays in generating radical behavior, largely through echo-chambers and anonymity. There's a long and highly disjointed path between feeling rejected, failing to get a sexual partner to writing about your hatred and engaging in the murder of people. This is, again, psychological, and it is a phenomenon being studied largely under the paradigm of terrorist radicalization on the internet.


The worst place for an incel to be on the Internet is an incel reddit.

They are not genuine support groups, it's just reinforcing the victim complex and hatred for the "normies". I don't believe anyone has ever gotten laid with the "advice" found on those forums.


I agree, but I am not sure that there are incels without the internet. Don't get me wrong, it's wholly possible that this phenomenon has happened throughout history - some men, unable for whatever reason to get a woman, have lost their minds and committed nasty acts. But the incel phenomenon has a much more dangerous component to it: a narrative. Narratives have a very deep psychological effect on humans, and can aid a person towards committing a terrible act yet to see their behavior in a wholly different light, far abstracted from reality. I think that narrative is grown and reinforced over and over in these internet echo chambers where they 'convert' those who are already psychologically deflated or troubled, and lead them along a path they otherwise would not have taken.

There was a news report a few weeks back (which I can't find now) talking to ex-incels. Each of them looks back with mild horror at what they said and how they thought because it's just not like them to think about women like that. But the group thinking, the narrative and the echo chamber conspire to make the untenable real.



Tree wrote:
Thirdly, I think we'd need to look at the cultures in which this phenomenon occurs, and wonder whether there's an unhealthy fixation on the sex act. Why doesn't this occur in other cultures? Perhaps there's a way to identify some aspects of the culture that need to be challenged.


Unhealthy would be for someone to still desire lots of sex after he's already getting it regularly.

Can we say that someone has an alcohol problem if he never drinks any?


Yes, of course. For example, if he was genetically unable to drink alcohol due to a lack of metabolizing isozyme production. If he lived in a society under prohibition. If in the society he lived in, for whatever classist/social/legal reason, other people were allowed to drink alcohol but he wasn't.

I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy to desire lots of sex after already getting regular sex. It just sounds like something generally more teenage in outlook (and physical performance) than someone older.


Tree wrote:The problem lies more in the method. You can desire lots of money for instance, in that regard, there is no difference between the investor and the crook. That's fine you work for it and understand that freedom to pursue it doesn't guarantee the desired outcome, but not fine if your idea of making money is robbing banks or scamming people.


I am not sure how these are relevant. Robbers and thieves are not a very clear or useful comparison to incels.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Mon May 28, 2018 3:20 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3480Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Tree wrote:Sadly, most feminists hate freedom and most of them oppose prostitution even if it's voluntary and doesn't involve trafficking.


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Tue May 29, 2018 1:05 am
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australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4347Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

How to deal with incels:

Raise boys to not view sex or relationships as a right that women are obligated to provide.

Problem solved.
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Wed May 30, 2018 10:11 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2681Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Sex robots.

Lots of sex robots.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Thu May 31, 2018 6:34 am
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Gnug215 wrote:Sex robots.

Lots of sex robots.



Do you think they would provide a more authentic, and therefore emotionally satisfying experience than Madame Cinq?
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu May 31, 2018 7:21 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3179Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Greetings,

Proper sex education.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
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Thu May 31, 2018 8:50 am
TreePosts: 230Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:08 pm Gender: Tree

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Proper sex education.

Kindest regards,

James


That would tell you how to do it properly but not how to obtain it.
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:10 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_education

Sex education is instruction on issues relating to human sexuality, including emotional relations and responsibilities, human sexual anatomy, sexual activity, sexual reproduction, age of consent, reproductive health, reproductive rights, safe sex, birth control and sexual abstinence.


My bold.

Of course, it all comes down to curriculum content, but there's definitely room under the curriculum umbrella to talk about matters relating to the forging of relations which contain sexual activity, and how to deal with rejection, etc.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:21 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3179Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Greetings,

Tree wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Proper sex education.

Kindest regards,

James


That would tell you how to do it properly but not how to obtain it.

No so, as Sparhafoc has shown.

Children's Aid Society Carrera Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention Program.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:47 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3480Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:48 pm
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SparhafocPosts: 2458Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

he_who_is_nobody wrote:A Modest Proposal


On the subject of financial benefits, I also must mention that my proposal would create a sudden spike in career opportunities for taxidermists. Men who were previously inspired to violence by economic anxiety would be able to retrain as taxidermists and keep busy preparing bodies for the good of their country.


:lol:

I do love a little satire of an evening.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:06 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 878Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Tree started a thread with an issue he is "concerned" by but actually used it to launch a barely-attached-to-reality attack on people he dislikes?

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:29 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

I think these people are caught in a cycle of negativity, and decide to blame women for their failings rather than themselves.

If you view yourself as incomplete without a loving woman, you are going to come across as desperate. If you fixate upon the goal of being with someone you'll inevitably end up with the wrong person because you chose the goal of not being alone over someone compatible. You'll end up miserable, desperate, and hopelessly unattractive.

I kinda went through this phase myself but it prompted me to look in the mirror rather than start to hate women. I think these people need some kind of counselling or coaching to show them that the most attractive they can be is to enjoy their life by themselves, have a good personality, and don't lash out if you get rejected. The problem is they are often invisible until they do something horrific in their rage.

What can we do? I suppose encourage a dialogue about self reflection, honesty, and some kind of positive means of engaging with life that isn't all about getting something and being someone at some vague point in the future. What I'm about to say will sound hippy as fuck, but there is a lot of hate in the world, perhaps the best way to stop the incels out there is to get rid of the part of us inside ourselves that could become that. To love and accept ourselves. Maybe then if enough people do that the hate filled shit anger fest that is the world at the moment will start to get better.

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:43 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2681Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Dealing with the incel menace...

Sparhafoc wrote:
Gnug215 wrote:Sex robots.

Lots of sex robots.



Do you think they would provide a more authentic, and therefore emotionally satisfying experience than Madame Cinq?



I honestly doubt authenticity and actual emotional satisfaction is the true desire of these people.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:38 am
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