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Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

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Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?
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VisakiUser avatarPosts: 812Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Seems like the supreme court in Finland has decided that making, at least semi-valid, logical conclusions about islam is agaist the law and breaking "peace and freedom of religion" legislation (meant to protect people's right to exercise their religion in peace without the harassment). MP Halla-Aho found this out earlier this week the judgement was passed conserning his blog post from 2009 (he was elected to the parliament in 2011). What did he post that was judged to be illegal? From the post "A few baits for Mika Illman" (Mika Illman is the Finnish state prosecutor, text in this colour is my addition for clarifications):

...
So much for slander. Lehto was also convicted for breach of peace of religion. According to the district court Lehto broke the muslim rights of peace of religion by rideculing of the prophet Muhammad. Professor Jaakko Hämeen-Anttila has confirmed the interpretation that Muhammad is in islam a holy figure.

State prosecutor Mika Illmans and the Tampere district courts opinion is that rideculing Muhammad is illegal because Muhammad is holy for the muslims.

(On the other hand professor Hämeen-Anttila could also confirm that in christianity Jesus and God are holy figures. This of course doesn't stop anyone rideculing of Jesus and God freely in a way they choose.)

Next I'm going to bait Mika Illman:

"Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile, and islam is a pedophilia sanctifying religious, ie a pedophilereligion. Pedophilia is a will of Allah" (NOTE: this part was removed on the orders of the court of appeals)

Are these sentences illegal? They surely offend the religious feeling of muslims. Lest approach the subject with logical chains:

As a fifty year old man Muhammad engages 6- or 7-year old Aisha. Their union was "consumated" when Aisha is 9. We can think that times were different and you can't judge Muhammads deeds with current values but because we've learned in the last years that the 1950's schoolbook were racist when talking about "neekeri" (neekeri = black person, a black african)(though no one thought "neekeri" was a racist term at the time), I suppose you can still can a child raper from 1400 years ago a child raper.

What must one do for the bolded point above to be not true? One must argue that...

a: ...The Quran is not literally true (in other words Muhammad didn't have sexual intercourse with a 9-year old girl.) This doesn't stand because according to islamic doctrine and the muslim view Quran is Gods word that has to be taken literally. You can not challenge the intercourse or Aishas age without offending muslims.

b: ...Muhammads action were not acceptable in all parts. This doesn't stand because according to muslims (and Tampere district court) critizising Muhammad is critizicing God and this is sacrilege. Punishment is death. Muslims believe that Muhammads actions were in accordance with Gods will. Because having intercourse with a child was Muhammads action, it is also in accordance with Gods will.

"Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile, and islam is a pedophilia sanctifying religious, ie a pedophilereligion. Pedophilia is a will of Allah" (NOTE: this part was removed on the orders of the court of appeals)
..

(NOTE: this is my own translation since I can't find the text translated in the net. I've strived to be as true to the original meanings and tone of the text as I can.)

The blog post then goes into another part, another "bait for Mika Illman", of which Mr. Halla-Aho was also sentence for the agitation against a group but which, I feel, is not that relevant to this discussion. Also as a note: The Finnish court system has three levels; district courts, courts of appeals and the supreme court.

Personally I have a few problems with Mr. Halla-Ahos original post. It's not his best work, and there might be a few factual mistakes there. I have no problem for people critizicing him and his writings or arguing against his points for that matter. Though from the text is is, I think, pretty clear that Mr. Halla-Ahos mission was to test the limits of freedom of speech in Finland and prove that there is differential treatment in the justice system according to what group of people you offend (the latter was tested more by the second part of Mr.Halla-Ahos post which I didn't translate, if someone is interested I'll take the time to translate rest of the text). The supreme court verdict proves his point that Finland is slipping into illegalizing offencive speech.

But the larger question here is should it be illegal just because it's offensive to someone, like muslims? According to the Finnish justice system the answer is "yes". Both district court and court of appeals agreed that "logic and reasonal arguments have no real meaning" in discussions about religion. Also the only parts of the text that were illegally offencive were the bolded parts. As Mr. Halla-Aho points in his reactions of the court of appeals verdict "According to the court it is legal to show that prophet Muhammad was a pedophile and islam is a pedophilia sanctifying religion, but it is illegal to claim that prophet Muhammad was a pedophiled or that islam is a pedophilia sactifying religion". Confusing, isn't it?

So what do you think? Should writing offensive to religious sects be illegal even if there are some justifications for it, like logical thinking and truthfulness of the said writing? Is the actual consequence of this verdict, because of it being a legal precedent, a gag order on the critic of islam (no one really expects this to be used against people rideculing christianity or judaism)? Is it a small step into the direction of a totalitarian state or just a good step towards rooting out racism?

Source for the supreme court decision (english version of Finlands largest daily newspaper)
Mr. Halla-Ahos blog post that got him the convictions, in Finnish of course (haven't been able to find an english translation)
And Halla-Ahos wiki page just in case someone wants some background on the guy.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:29 am
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

See? I told you. But nobody wanted to listen.

I wonder how long before we see the first Islamist political party in Europe, backed by either the Saudis, or the Muslims Brotherhood or some other subversive foreign power. STOP THE STEALTH JIHAD!
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:42 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Without context and especially without any way to judge the accuracy of the translation, what do you expect any of us to say? I have no idea if this is illegal because it is criticism of Islam, or if it is illegal to paint all Muslims as pedophiles as it appears your quote could be doing, or if this is illegal because in its larger context it is criticizing Islam in order to smear a specific person with the charge of pedophilia.

In other words, here's three statements:

1) The Catholic church contains and also protects child molesters.

2) The Catholic church contains and also protects child molesters. Catholics are baby rapers in a baby raping cult.

3) The Catholic church contains and also protects child molesters. Catholics are baby rapers in a baby raping cult. John Smith down the road is a Catholic... you do the math. Maybe something should happen to John Smith in the middle of the night, who lives at 100 Elm Street.

Statement 1 is true and legal. Statement 2 is false, but IMO should also be considered legal. Statement three is false, and borderline illegal libel against John Smith, as well as advocating violence. Do you see where the issue of context comes into play?

Plus, the whole "Muhammad was a pedophile" business is a known favorite of the dumber anti-Muslim bigots who also seem to conveniently forget that Judaism (and therefore Christianity and Islam as well) is built on a foundation of incest and genocide. What Muhammad did didn't meet the standard of pedophilia by his culture's standards, and from a certain perspective not even entirely from a modern standard.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:54 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

ImprobableJoe wrote:Plus, the whole "Muhammad was a pedophile" business is a known favorite of the dumber anti-Muslim bigots who also seem to conveniently forget that Judaism (and therefore Christianity and Islam as well) is built on a foundation of incest and genocide. What Muhammad did didn't meet the standard of pedophilia by his culture's standards, and from a certain perspective not even entirely from a modern standard.


You gotta be kidding. :lol: I thought "divine wisdom" transcended primitive cultural standards, plus I've never heard of any culture where the norm was that 50 year old men married 6 year-olds and consummated it at 9, almost 3-4 years BEFORE puberty.

For the record, the genocide in the Old Testament is a crucial reason why I do not accept either Judaism or Christianity, because I don't believe a so-called just and loving and omnipotent God would cause or condone so much needless reckless suffering. Don't think I'm ignoring that.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:10 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4347Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

As I said previously in another thread; why are you even invoking divine wisdom AS AN ATHEIST? Islam has no divine wisdom, so why are you expecting said morality to be anything other than 5th century?

He's your cake. You don't get to eat it.
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:40 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Oh shit, I think I spoke too soon, this is worse than I thought: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/fea ... cnum=53472

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1POOynGan0

:lol:
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:37 pm
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:Oh shit, I think I spoke too soon, this is worse than I thought: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/fea ... cnum=53472

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1POOynGan0

:lol:


Let's line them up and shoot them so we can be big heroes to the civilized world
Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:26 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

bluejatheist wrote:
Dogma's Demise wrote:Oh shit, I think I spoke too soon, this is worse than I thought: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/fea ... cnum=53472

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1POOynGan0

:lol:


Let's line them up and shoot them so we can be big heroes to the civilized world


You really are a useful idiot for Islamists you know that?
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:40 pm
Duvelthehobbit666User avatarPosts: 1137Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:39 pmLocation: On a pale blue dot Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

As long as they don't try to pass any legislation against the constitution, and their party line supports the smooth running, and bettering of the country, then there should be no problem.
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"Beer, the cause of - and solution to - all of lifes problems" Homer Simpson

I have a blog now
Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:42 pm
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Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Duvelthehobbit666 wrote:As long as they don't try to pass any legislation against the constitution, and their party line supports the smooth running, and bettering of the country, then there should be no problem.


Clearly the mere existence of such parties shows Spain and Finland don't have a strong enough separation of church and state.

I mean come on, even Turkey doesn't have it so bad and it's Muslim majority country. A party that is openly Islamist would be banned there, as it should be.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:54 pm
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:
You really are a useful idiot for Islamists you know that?


Yes, just like how people who don't buy the Building 7 story are useful idiots for the US Government, along with people who think the moon landing happened.

(Edit)
Also, I like how you made no actual comment on whether you'd support executing radicals for wanting to participate in politics.
Last edited by bluejatheist on Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:02 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

bluejatheist wrote:
Dogma's Demise wrote:
You really are a useful idiot for Islamists you know that?


Yes, just like how people who don't buy the Building 7 story are useful idiots for the US Government, along with people who think the moon landing happened.



So you believe it is perfectly okay for a group of people to form a political party on a religious agenda? Something that is a clear violation of the rights of everyone who doesn't belong to that particular religion as well as for the moderates of that religion?

I can't believe the audacity of you people, you will sit there on your fat asses whining about creationism in schools and pro-lifers, but you won't speak out against Islamist movements.

The level of cognitive dissonance and double standards is staggering.

I'm almost considering converting back to Christianity just to ensure that I have absolutely NOTHING in common with you people.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:11 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4347Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:You really are a useful idiot for Islamists you know that?


Seriously? You, the guy proactively trying to encourage fear of impotent fundamentalist Muslims, can post that without any irony? If anyone is doing them a favor it's you, for perpetuating the myth that we need to worry about these halfwits.

Also, feel free to stop visiting this forum if you dislike the content. No one has a gun to your head, not even those EVUL MUSLAMICS!!!111
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:13 pm
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:
I'm almost considering converting back to Christianity just to ensure that I have absolutely NOTHING in common with you people.


Cry harder
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:16 pm
Duvelthehobbit666User avatarPosts: 1137Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:39 pmLocation: On a pale blue dot Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:
bluejatheist wrote:Yes, just like how people who don't buy the Building 7 story are useful idiots for the US Government, along with people who think the moon landing happened.



So you believe it is perfectly okay for a group of people to form a political party on a religious agenda? Something that is a clear violation of the rights of everyone who doesn't belong to that particular religion as well as for the moderates of that religion?

I can't believe the audacity of you people, you will sit there on your fat asses whining about creationism in schools and pro-lifers, but you won't speak out against Islamist movements.

The level of cognitive dissonance and double standards is staggering.

I'm almost considering converting back to Christianity just to ensure that I have absolutely NOTHING in common with you people.

As long as the law and/or constitutions allows the formation of political parties on religious grounds, there is nothing you can do to stop the formation. At most, you can vote for other parties and convince people to not vote for the religious party. And there are plenty of non-Islamic parties which are against such things as birth control. It seems to me you just want to pick on Islam and ignore other religions. Suppressing peoples freedom is not exclusive to Islam.
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"Beer, the cause of - and solution to - all of lifes problems" Homer Simpson

I have a blog now
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:18 pm
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bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:

So you believe it is perfectly okay for a group of people to form a political party on a religious agenda? Something that is a clear violation of the rights of everyone who doesn't belong to that particular religion as well as for the moderates of that religion?


Also yes, I do. Here in the U.S. we even have a Nazi Party, because our Constitution doesn't have an asterisk next to "Freedom of Speech/Press/Religion/Expression" that says "As long they agree with you."
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:25 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

1% of Finland's population is Muslim. Anyone claiming a "Muslim problem" in Finland is a bigot and a moron.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:28 pm
Duvelthehobbit666User avatarPosts: 1137Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:39 pmLocation: On a pale blue dot Gender: Male

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

ImprobableJoe wrote:1% of Finland's population is Muslim. Anyone claiming a "Muslim problem" in Finland is a bigot and a moron.

Which will mean that they can consider themselves lucky if they get enough signatures to form the party, let alone, get a single seat in Parliament.
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"Beer, the cause of - and solution to - all of lifes problems" Homer Simpson

I have a blog now
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:32 pm
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ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Duvelthehobbit666 wrote:
ImprobableJoe wrote:1% of Finland's population is Muslim. Anyone claiming a "Muslim problem" in Finland is a bigot and a moron.

Which will mean that they can consider themselves lucky if they get enough signatures to form the party, let alone, get a single seat in Parliament.

Well, you know... once they get a seat then they control THE WORLD MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You know, the bigotry of the anti-Muslim crowd is almost a weird sort of deification of Muslims as well. After all, they look at a tiny population of Muslims in Finland, take the minority of extremists within that tiny minority, and invest them with almost superhuman potential for political influence. It is like anti-hero worship or something.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:58 pm
televatorUser avatarPosts: 1252Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:02 amLocation: In hell, rocking out with Satan! Gender: Cake

Post Re: Criticizing Islam now illegal in Finland?

Dogma's Demise wrote:See? I told you. But nobody wanted to listen.

I wonder how long before we see the first Islamist political party in Europe, backed by either the Saudis, or the Muslims Brotherhood or some other subversive foreign power. STOP THE STEALTH JIHAD!


When did Glenn Beck become a member of our forum?

--------0---------

Back to the OP:

Again, I need context. Especially of the kind untainted by sensationalism. Blasted language barriers...
a·the·ism: The absence of belief in god(s)

There are no additional, claims, laws, commandments, rules, doctrines, presuppositions, stand alone ideologies, dogmas, and/or faith based beliefs required by or inevitably derived from atheism.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:04 pm
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