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Aid to Africa?

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Aid to Africa?
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bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:Okay this is in no way an endorsement of China's crimes, but what would you say about their 1 child policy?

I wouldn't go that far to limit it to 1 child, but damn, I think that when a country is reproducing irresponsibly the government must interfere.


This is in no way an endorsement of this, but I kind of endorse this.
Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:36 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2987Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:Okay this is in no way an endorsement of China's crimes, but what would you say about their 1 child policy?

I wouldn't go that far to limit it to 1 child, but damn, I think that when a country is reproducing irresponsibly the government must interfere.


You've done a nice job of drifting away from defending some of your original comments.

This topic is about giving aid and charity to Africa, now you've just moved it to be about overpopulation in general.

Nice one.
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Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:47 am
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

bluejatheist wrote:
Dogma's Demise wrote:Okay this is in no way an endorsement of China's crimes, but what would you say about their 1 child policy?

I wouldn't go that far to limit it to 1 child, but damn, I think that when a country is reproducing irresponsibly the government must interfere.


This is in no way an endorsement of this, but I kind of endorse this.


:roll:

I only put that disclaimer up so people won't start accusing me of sympathizing with China's communists.

Regardless of their crimes, the 1 child policy is not a crime.

Having more children than you can reasonably provide for is a crime. In fact it should be an internationally recognized crime against humanity.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:22 am
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:
:roll:


:roll:
Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:23 am
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Laurens wrote:
Dogma's Demise wrote:Okay this is in no way an endorsement of China's crimes, but what would you say about their 1 child policy?

I wouldn't go that far to limit it to 1 child, but damn, I think that when a country is reproducing irresponsibly the government must interfere.


You've done a nice job of drifting away from defending some of your original comments.

This topic is about giving aid and charity to Africa, now you've just moved it to be about overpopulation in general.

Nice one.


And we'll get to that soon, for now I think it's important I know where everyone stands on this issue. (I noticed a bit of hostility to the idea of population control.)
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:27 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2987Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:
And we'll get to that soon, for now I think it's important I know where everyone stands on this issue. (I noticed a bit of hostility to the idea of population control.)


I don't have any hostility toward population control, just your proposed methods and your contempt towards Africans with large families, as though they're to blame for the shit they're in.

I think the problem needs to be tackled in the following ways, the emancipation of women, education and access to contraception. There is no need to force anyone into anything as a first resort.
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Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:37 am
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Alright thank for you that response.


About this:
Laurens wrote:your contempt towards Africans with large families, as though they're to blame for the shit they're in.


Well that doesn't quite reflect my stance, they are not solely to blame, but they're not blameless either.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:49 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2987Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:Alright thank for you that response.


About this:
Laurens wrote:your contempt towards Africans with large families, as though they're to blame for the shit they're in.


Well that doesn't quite reflect my stance, they are not solely to blame, but they're not blameless either.


Having more children than you can reasonably raise is an act of cruelty.


As for Laurens' argument that some are just desperately trying to have as many children to at least one will survive to take care of them...

Here's my suggestion to parents who think like that: Go kill yourself, seriously. It's grossly immoral and selfish to sacrifice so many lives (which you brought into the world WITHOUT consent knowing full well many of them will have a miserable existence) just so your fat old ass can live comfortably. Fuck, I think I'd rather kill myself too than just mass spawn little copies of me and condemn them to a miserable life.


Calling people cruel and insinuating that they should kill themselves for their immorality and selfishness is both contemptuous and it is also pointing the blame at them.

Like I said, you have no idea what life is like for these people, not even the slightest comprehension. You can't try to claim the moral high ground over people who've got absolutely no control over the shit situation that they find themselves in, and to be frank I think it's disgusting that you are trying to do so.
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Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:56 am
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

So, yet another ill-informed series of comments... Dogma, have you actually done any research into the one-child policy?

I know you haven't, (you wouldn't mention it if you had), but let's roll with it.

What happens there when you have a second child?

I want at least four answers and the consequences of each.
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

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Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:15 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

I'm not sure what you mean by "four answers".

First of all it's not universal, there are various categories of couples that aren't bound by this, like ethnic minorities, foreign couples, parents without siblings, rural couples. So if you're exempt, you can have a 2nd child.

You can also have a 2nd child abroad with no trouble, assuming he doesn't apply for Chinese citizenship.

You can also have twins, again without consequences, so I've already shown you several instances where there are no consequences.

But generally speaking if you are under the one-child policy and you have a 2nd child, you're gonna get fined pretty damn heavily.

In some cases, there have been forced abortions, (I don't agree with that part and it's not really official either.)
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:01 pm
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "four answers".


I said "at least" four answers. What I mean is apparent, unless you're looking for ways to dodge the question.

First of all it's not universal, there are various categories of couples that aren't bound by this, like ethnic minorities, foreign couples, parents without siblings, rural couples. So if you're exempt, you can have a 2nd child.


Okay, that's half an answer. You probably need to read my post again to really get to grips with the simplicity of the question.

You can also have a 2nd child abroad with no trouble, assuming he doesn't apply for Chinese citizenship.


Not relevant.

You can also have twins, again without consequences


Okay, so we have another half answer.

so I've already shown you several instances where there are no consequences.


Two half answers isn't several, and I asked for the consequences of having a second child, not the loopholes to enable you to have a second child.

Here it is again (you'll figure out how to scroll eventually, no doubt, but until then...)

What happens there when you have a second child?

I want at least four answers and the consequences of each.


But generally speaking if you are under the one-child policy and you have a 2nd child, you're gonna get fined pretty damn heavily.


Okay, they get fined. Finally an almost complete answer...
So I'll give you one point, plus a bonus half-point for the rest.

They may get fined heavily, and how do they (the parents) deal with that?

In some cases, there have been forced abortions, (I don't agree with that part and it's not really official either.)


Forced abortions don't apply to my question, but it has some significance overall.

What else?
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:28 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

No I did give you more than 4 answers, I've shown you plenty of scenarios where the consequences for having a 2nd child are none.

Prolescum wrote:They may get fined heavily, and how do they (the parents) deal with that?


Well, obviously they have to pay the fine like any other fine, what kind of question is that? You break the law, you get fried, that's how it goes.

Sure that might incline some parents to break other laws and abandon or kill them to avoid the fine, is that what you're trying to get at?
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:58 pm
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:No I did give you more than 4 answers


No, you didn't.
Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:06 pm
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Dogma's Demise wrote:No I did give you more than 4 answers


Wrong.

I've shown you plenty of scenarios where the consequences for having a 2nd child are none.


No, you've given a couple of loopholes.

Prolescum wrote:They may get fined heavily, and how do they (the parents) deal with that?


Well, obviously they have to pay the fine like any other fine, what kind of question is that? You break the law, you get fried, that's how it goes.

Sure that might incline some parents to break other laws and abandon or kill them to avoid the fine, is that what you're trying to get at?


Good, you're starting to get the feeling for how complex an issue may be.

So the children may be abandoned or killed (which you seem to have no problem with; I thought you were a moral absolutist?)

What about corrupt officials? Wouldn't it be cheaper to bribe someone, and if it is apparent to all there are bribable officials, what use is the policy then?
What about the male/female ratio? When the cultural preference is for male successors, how does that affect the policy and the decisions parents may make with regards to the second child?
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:19 pm
Dogma's DemisePosts: 576Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 am

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

Well, sadly the cultural preference for males (seen as better providers) will still be there with or without the one-child policy.

You know you could counter-balance that by reforming the policy, for example no more fines if the 2nd child is a girl.

Also killing or abandoning children is illegal too, so don't say that I have no problem with it. But a demographics crisis would probably lead to much nastier stuff in the long run as people fight for resources and jobs.

Now there is however the issue of pensions (lots of old people and few young people is not a good thing) but one thing is certain to me, the population should gradually decline or at the very least no grow anymore.


EDIT: Speaking of morality, I'm not the one doing the killing. There is no policy you can ever implement to drop murder rates to zero but that doesn't mean you approve of them.
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government" - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:47 pm
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Aid to Africa?

DD, they were prompts to help you answer my previous response. I'm kind like that.

Also, the word "seem" in my post was relevant.
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:05 pm
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