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Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

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Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?
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AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

Last night, England drew 0-0 with Algeria. It should have been an easy game, but Capello played the wrong formation once again, and failed to recognise that DeFoe should have been on from the start instead of Heskey. His crummy management and blind faith in the Rooney/Heskey could cost England a chance in the knock-out stages if they don't beat Slovenia next Wednesday. Obviously, like everyone else in England I was at the pub getting drunk and frustrated simultaneously (never a good combination.)

When I returned home, I found a comment on my video detailing the upcoming LoR show which just struck an atomic nerve with me. I was upset, and shouldn't have responded, but I did. As such, another meaningless comment debate has been spawned, but as it went on, I began to feel ever more sorry for my opponent.

It may be that I'm missing something here, but my opponent seems to be dictating what myself and others involved with setting up the show think, and attacking our imaginary thoughts. What's interesting to me is that the person is presumably a member of the "atheist community" but swooped in to take the moral high-ground on baseless assertions. Isn't that a common tactic for religious apologists?

I would appreciate any critique about how I've responded in this "debate". Obviously I know it's pointless, but it almost seems worthwhile when I'm forced to pick apart the less obvious problems which crop up during inflammatory dialogue. On the other hand, I might be completely in the wrong here. If so, tell me. I'm a big boy.

This debate is still in progress and I'll update this thread as it happens. I just thought I'd start posting it for record's sake.

This is, the online equivalent of Jeremy Kyle. Is this really a prudent use of academics' time? Bear baiting and playing around with people like Nephillimfree?

It's really sad to see you all devoting so much time and energy to this.

Me wrote:It's sad to see you devoting so much time and energy to that comment. Actually, it's not, because I don't get wound up or complain about how other people choose to spend their free time. If an academic works like the rest of us, who are we to, dictate what they do with their weekends?

I didn't once mention NephilimFree in this video, and if Thunderf00t wants to invite him to the show, that's his prerogative. Feel free to dismount that high horse and waste your time your way.

(Yup, terse and bitchy. I'm not proud of it. :facepalm: )

I'm not dictating anything. I just thought you were better than this.

I'm not complaining about how you spend your time, but since you have posted it online, thereby inviting comment, you probably shouldn't complain if and when you get comments you don't necessarily like.

I don't care how you spend your time .I guess I must be mad for thinking that there are better ways to educate than to bait the stupid. ,

There's something really insipid about the way you guys are going, as exemplified, by Thunderf00t's ridiculous triumphalism regarding EDMD. That was just plain embarrassing.

Me wrote:"..the way you guys are going.."

Who is this 'you guys'? I think you need to be careful about generalising. I never hailed DMD as a triumph, and indeed criticised Thunderf00t's method and execution, as did many members of, League of Reason. DonExodus afaik did not take part, and many people made unique contributions or none at all. You are confusing individual actions with an agenda, whilst simultaneously suggesting that this community should behave in a way that pleases you.

It also baffles me that anyone would suggest that just now, after 33 WDPLAC videos, criticising and refuting creationists is becoming insipid, despite the fact that moving to a live format is actually, a huge change, which is designed to test the "think on your feet" ability of a panel of science-supporting people (who do not always agree with each other.)

Blaming one for another's actions, or grouping people up as you see fit just because they subscribe to each other fails.

'You are confusing individual actions with an, agenda,'

And the whole concept of irony explodes like the motherfuckin' Death Star...

(I didn't get that bit. Is he accusing me of generalising about creationists? Because so far he has managed to use the phrases "you guys" and "people like NephilimFree" whereas I thought my video was pretty clean in this regard.)

Me wrote:1. Clarification required.
2. You ignored my point about generalising.
3. You didn't answer my question.
4. In response to TheWad1959, you claim to know the intentions of everyone on the "pilot" panel, despite your claim: "This is about, sport and getting subscribers." contradicting DonExodus2's public explanation about why he wanted to debate NephilimFree.
5. Unless you are a PhD making academic contributions 24/7, you really ought to dismount the high horse.

(I included the bit about being a PhD because he had rhetorically asked in response to another commenter, "Is this how PhD's spend their time?" or something to that effect. For the record, I am not a PhD. Neither is dprjones, and please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that AronRa does not hold a PhD either.

if you think I am generalising, you're all on the same show so I judged the show. I have listened to Donexodus2 and I don't buy it. I really don't think you can argue that this is anything more than entertainment. I think this show is about, making sport of people with stupid claims,as evidenced by the acorn guy being ridiculed. I think he should be ridiculed, I just think you should be upfront about your intention to do so.

My answer to WAd's point about 'wherever it happens' is that you are causing it to happen. It's not about combatting ignorance where you find it., You're just loading the dice for the inevitable smackdown.

Whatever I maybe, it doesn't matter. Disappointing to see such an obvious fallacy.

Me wrote:Still looking for clarification about irony.
""¦you're all on the same show so I judged the show."
And yet mentioned DMD, which was never on the show? This is why I've accused you of generalising, because you are.

"I have listened to Donexodus2 and I don't buy it."
Argument from personal incredulity.

""¦as evidenced by the acorn guy being ridiculed."
I see you've jumped to TruthfulChristian, despite your previous grievance being aimed at the 'baiting' of NephilimFree. TruthfulChristian did not have to call in, but he had the spine to. No one had any intention of making sport of him, nor is that the intention of the show (which I conceived in 2009 with other intentions.)

"I just think you should be upfront about your intention to do so."
The videos/blog post surrounding the show have made clear the reason for doing it, and your own perception that it isn't "anything more than entertainment" is unfounded and remains unsubstantiated. I didn't ask for your answer to TheWad1959, I pointed out that you made an unjustified assertion in that answer.

"Whatever I maybe, it doesn't matter."
c.f. with"¦
"Is this really a prudent use of academics' time?" and "I just thought you were better than this."

Apparently, you can be who you want, but academics can't. And when I challenge you to make some kind of contribution to academia, before assuming the moral high ground over how much others should be contributing, you accuse me of an "obvious fallacy."

Remind me, what kind of fallacy is this? How can any fallacy be involved in the statement when it is not advancing an argument, but is simply a suggestion for you to get over yourself?


More to come unfortunately...

Update: this seems to have fizzled out - I doubt there will be any more follow-up.
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Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:41 pm
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australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

This is, the online equivalent of Jeremy Kyle.


Except the 'people' who appear on JK, and indeed Jerry Springer, Maury et al to so of their own free will. They're not baited onto coming onto the show, they're given the oppotunity and they can take it or leave it. Tf00t could have gone about challenging Neph in a less provocative way but his actions are no reflection on anyone else other than him. Besides, Neph duly declined so that's that, no point bitching about LoR in it's entirity and everyone involved in the show.

People need to actually stop and think what it is they think they're upset about before making stupid comments.

AndromedasWake wrote:Last night, England drew 0-0 with Algeria. It should have been an easy game, but Capello played the wrong formation once again, and failed to recognise that DeFoe should have been on from the start instead of Heskey. His crummy management and blind faith in the Rooney/Heskey could cost England a chance in the knock-out stages if they don't beat Slovenia next Wednesday.


I maintain Capello dropped the ball as soon as he bailed on Walcott.
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Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:20 pm
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

Couldn't a similar complaint be launched against any leisure activity? If I say that I like to go water-skiing on the weekend, someone could say "What!? You like to strap two planks of wood to your feet and get pulled across the waves at ridiculous speeds? Isn't that a waste of your time when you could be in the lab doing X,Y, & Z?"

I think the proper response is "screw you". Everyone needs time off from their work, time to enjoy simple pleasures, and engage in the pursuit of happiness. Getting together with a group of friends and discussing intellectual matters is one of life's highest pleasures and you shouldn't need to justify yourself to this pest.

Does he have a point about Tfoot bear-baiting creationists? It depends on the point of the show but I thought it was supposed to be about science rather than atheism. Maybe this could do with a little clarification on the next broadcast? Even if there is a legitimate point here it is in relation to Tfoot so making it to you is mostly pointless.
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:33 pm
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/b/artlebyUser avatarPosts: 152Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:28 pm

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

On the other hand, the guy was extremely rude, but he does have a slight point. You people are awesome, and in the beginning, with you TF, AronRa, and every one else used to make cool sciencey videos explaining things in fun and interesting ways. After watching your (I use your in the collective) videos, I would always come away feeling slightly smarter and thinking about whatever it is I had learned. As of late, it's become sorta mainstream, and you people have been just spending your time making fun of random idiots who popped up. It was funny and entertaining when it was VenomFangX, but then VF turned into Ray Comfort, who turned into HowTheWorldWorks and now you're starting a show where you're doing this sort of thing every other week. It was funny at first because of the novelty, but lately it feels like you've drifted from your original purpose, and what used to be an educational and entertaining dissection of common misconceptions has become a slightly more high brow venue to watch the silly monkey dance so to speak. I don't say any of this to be rude, as you guys are some of the few people I genuinely admire, especially AaronRa. But as of late, it has gotten kind of stale. Again, I don't know if anyone else feels this way, and if it offends you, I really am sorry. But spearing random idiots isn't tantamount to intellectual discourse, maybe if instead of spending the entire time taking calls, you took part of the show to discuss science, or recent events. I would have loved to hear an in depth analysis of the synthetic cell experiment on the show, with all of you discussing what you think the future holds for this technology, and once the show has grown a bit, maybe you could arrange for willing professors from local universities and intellectual figures to call in to discuss relevant topics with the panel. This show really is a good idea, but maybe instead of taking his comment as a personal attack on you, you could use it to turn the show into something better. Anyhow, just thought I would take a break from being a troll to tell you this, now if you will excuse me, I have feminist blog to flame.
I would prefer not to.
Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:48 am
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

/b/artleby wrote: It was funny at first because of the novelty, but lately it feels like you've drifted from your original purpose, and what used to be an educational and entertaining dissection of common misconceptions has become a slightly more high brow venue to watch the silly monkey dance so to speak.


The hungry monkeys are confused because it started raining bananas; they asked for bananas, not rain. :lol:

I think that a pure debunking of idiots is probably unsustainable as a live format, so...
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:30 am
MRaverzPosts: 1838Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:00 am Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

Well, England beat Slovenia 1-0 so that should cheer you up. :D
Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:33 am
nasher168League LegendUser avatarPosts: 2518Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:34 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

MRaverz wrote:Well, England beat Slovenia 1-0 so that should cheer you up. :D


And Slovenia beat Italy :lol:
A great Charity
Apologies for my absence of late.
Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:30 pm
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AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

nasher168 wrote:
MRaverz wrote:Well, England beat Slovenia 1-0 so that should cheer you up. :D


And Slovenia beat Italy :lol:


That was Slovakia. Epic game though. Left NZ above Italy in the group, which is hilarious.
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Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:52 pm
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AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

/b/artleby wrote:As of late, it's become sorta mainstream, and you people have been just spending your time making fun of random idiots who popped up. It was funny and entertaining when it was VenomFangX, but then VF turned into Ray Comfort, who turned into HowTheWorldWorks and now you're starting a show where you're doing this sort of thing every other week. It was funny at first because of the novelty, but lately it feels like you've drifted from your original purpose, and what used to be an educational and entertaining dissection of common misconceptions has become a slightly more high brow venue to watch the silly monkey dance so to speak.


Sorry, I just don't understand any of this. VenomFangX, Comfort and HTTW are all "idiots who popped up". I don't see how anything is different (even with the addition of a live show.)

This is roughly the response I gave to the guy in the comments. You say it feels like we (by which I mean myself, TF, AronRa and "everyone else") have drifted from our purpose, but I would contend that it is simply you who have drifted from your original taste in debunking-related media. Everyone is still responding to common misconceptions, educating where possible and trying to balance that with a healthy dose of "drama" that is involved in any entertaining debunk. It seems to me that the "novelty" has worn off for you, which is fair enough.

I suspect we will all keep doing what we've always been doing, mostly for our own enjoyment since none of us get paid to do it, and if you are looking for something else you will have to look elsewhere.

The defence of science on youtube will always be about calling out idiots, since the people who attack it always are idiots.
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(( "We are 'star-stuff'. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan | Music! | Twitter - [ AndromedasWake | SiriusStargazer ] ))
Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:04 pm
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AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

Prolescum wrote:I think that a pure debunking of idiots is probably unsustainable as a live format, so...


The suspense is killing me!
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(( "We are 'star-stuff'. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan | Music! | Twitter - [ AndromedasWake | SiriusStargazer ] ))
Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:06 pm
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ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

AndromedasWake wrote:
Prolescum wrote:I think that a pure debunking of idiots is probably unsustainable as a live format, so...


The suspense is killing me!


...having broadened the format to include more general questions from the public seems to have been warmly received by the LoR show's audience; you can't always guarantee the idiots themselves will show up anyway.


Punctuation rocks!
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:18 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

AndromedasWake wrote:I suspect we will all keep doing what we've always been doing, mostly for our own enjoyment since none of us get paid to do it, and if you are looking for something else you will have to look elsewhere.

In other words, if it eventually becomes mostly about hearing yourselves talk and mocking dumb people, then that's cool as long as you continue to enjoy hearing yourselves talk and mocking dumb people? 8-)

I always sort of wonder about people who watch or listen to something for free on the Internet, out of all the millions of things that are on the Internet, and then invest a bunch of time in insulting or attacking that thing. That's different from constructive criticism, which is meant to suggest ways to make things you like even better, but even that can go to far if you start insisting that creators change things to be more to your personal liking than it is to theirs. Someone who thinks your show is "sad", "insipid", and "embarrassing" has all sorts of options, starting with creating their own thing that fits their personal preferences, moving on to one of the millions of other things on the Internet that is more to their liking, and ending with going ahead and fucking right off.
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Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:31 pm
AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

ImprobableJoe wrote:In other words, if it eventually becomes mostly about hearing yourselves talk and mocking dumb people, then that's cool as long as you continue to enjoy hearing yourselves talk and mocking dumb people? 8-)


Luckily we're a long way off that. Like most people I know on YT, I don't ever watch my own videos because I can't stand listening to myself narrate them. ;)

As for mocking dumb people, I resent that! I mock dishonest or wilfully ignorant people. The fact that they all fail at science is purely coincidental. :mrgreen:
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Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:00 pm
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nasher168League LegendUser avatarPosts: 2518Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:34 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

AndromedasWake wrote:

That was Slovakia. Epic game though. Left NZ above Italy in the group, which is hilarious.


Bah. Same difference.
A great Charity
Apologies for my absence of late.
Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:03 pm
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ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

AndromedasWake wrote:
Luckily we're a long way off that. Like most people I know on YT, I don't ever watch my own videos because I can't stand listening to myself narrate them. ;)
My current boredom with debunking comes from the fact that I rarely hear a new and interesting argument from creationists, not from the debunkers themselves. The whole pinecone thing was completely new to me, and therefore a couple of flavors of awesome. :D

As for mocking dumb people, I resent that! I mock dishonest or wilfully ignorant people. The fact that they all fail at science is purely coincidental. :mrgreen:
Right... it is only incidental that their IQ levels are somewhat south of average. Gotcha.

Of course, you'll rarely get a clever creationist to take you on, because they are just smart enough to know that clever doesn't mean smart, and they'll get their asses handed to them by folks who are clever, smart AND knowledgeable. Between the half-dozen or so of you guys on the LoR show, you make at least two-and-a-half of clever, smart and knowledgeable people. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:07 pm
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

...and 1 and a half of those people is clearly DPR.
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:58 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

australopithecus wrote:...and 1 and a half of those people is clearly DPR.

Are you saying he's fat?
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:22 am
australopithecusLime TordUser avatarPosts: 4324Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Wasting time arguing about wasting time arguing?

Not at all, just that he's a towering figure of a man. Clearly the brains of the operation.
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:35 pm
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