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Faith Q&A.

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Faith Q&A.
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australopithecusAdministratorUser avatarPosts: 4287Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Faith Q&A.

Background:

I was challenged to address my loss/lack of faith, so I said "Fair enough". As of yet it's been pretty slow and uninteresting but I was promised "it will be painful" so I live in hope and post here in said hope that it becomes interesting.



I believe you said before your parents, or at least one of them, are a believer. What ages did you go to church and when did you stop?



From the age of 4 to 13, every sunday not counting the times it was a mandatory part of going to catholic school. I stopped voluntarily going because I moved house and the usual church I went to was miles away and because I started questioning the whole God thing in general.


Which parent was a believer, or was it both? You mention that you moved. Is that when you stopped going to Catholic school?



No, I continued going to catholic school until the age of 16 (19 if you count advanced studies). The reason I didn't include the times I went to church as dictated by the school was because in relation to my own personal faith it was irrelevant. I was expected, as all students were, to attend mass regardless of faith. Between the ages of 4 and 13 are the times I willingly and voluntarily went to mass.

As for my parents my mother is christians and my father is apathetic, he holds no opinion either way.

Are your parents still married?


Yep, 26 years last month.


Good for them. Which parent do you relate to best? Who did you emulate as a teenager?



I didn't emulate either of them, and as for relating I related more with my maternal grandfather than my parents.


And what does your maternal grandfather believe? At what age did you start relating with him more than your parents?



He was a christian, and I always related more to him than my parents. He was interested in the same things I was and I spent a lot of my childhood with my grandparents because they lived a couple of doors away from me.

When did your grandfather pass away?


5 years ago.

Did you talk about faith much with him?


Not really, it wasn't that important. Or at least relatively unimportant, besides I kept my lack or loss of religious faith to myself with regards to my grandparents as to not worry my grandmother who was a typical ultra-mega-full on Irish Catholic. The type of grandmother who'd lose sleep worrying if you had a cold so I really didn't want her to turn insomniac over worrying about an eternal soul I don't believe in.

So what about your mother? How does she feel about the soul you don't believe in?


She hasn't expressed an opinion. She knows I don't believe what she does, she's fine with it.

Did you discuss your questions of faith with anyone before you made your mind up?


I haven't made my mind up. I lack faith in God not believe there is no God. I'm simply waiting for any evidence to support the claim there is one. And no, I didn't discuss it, any discussion would have been irrelevant.

When you seek evidence of a scientific nature do you rely only on your own findings?


No, but then science is objective while religious faith is subjective. Any discussion would simply be 2 people asserting subjective opinions and would have no bearing on anything.
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Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:01 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Re: Faith Q&A.

Since you posted the Q&A in the forum, I assume this is public and no longer personal. May we also ask questions?
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Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:17 am
australopithecusAdministratorUser avatarPosts: 4287Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

I love questions. They're like little balls of fun.
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Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:50 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

I'll post atleast one question a day in here, so you can prepare your answers. Of course such is based on your experience and expertise.

Do you hide the fact that you are an atheist from others? Why? (If it is personal, no need to answer, I'll think of another one tomorrow. Hehe)
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Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:39 pm
australopithecusAdministratorUser avatarPosts: 4287Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Not at all. One of the benefits of living in the UK, as opposed to say Saudi Arabia or the US, is that pretty much no one cares, and even if they did well that's their problem. I'm not going to run around advertising the fact I have no faith in gods but if someone asks I wont lie.
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Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:45 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Is the concept of equality appealing to you? or would you prefer equity, which is equality for equals? or do you prefer the idea that there is no such thing as equality?
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:32 am
australopithecusAdministratorUser avatarPosts: 4287Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Equality for equals strikes me as something as a tautology. Wouldn't equals have equality by definition? Anyway, equality is a very good thing. I wholely support it. Do I think there will ever be true equality amongst people? Not really, sadly.
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:58 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

australopithecus wrote:Equality for equals strikes me as something as a tautology. Wouldn't equals have equality by definition? Anyway, equality is a very good thing. I wholely support it. Do I think there will ever be true equality amongst people? Not really, sadly.


With respect to equity, what I mean is that different classes will be treated in differently. However, within their classes, they are treated in the same manner.

To illustrate, the strictness required in the following differ, yet in the same class it is equal: S - professional, A - strict,..., D - lenient.

The level of strictness in kindergarten students may be classified as D.

The level of strictness in gradeschool students may be classified as C.

The level of strictness in high school students may be classified as B.

The level of strictness in college students may be classified as A.

The level of strictness in Higher level education may be classified as S.

In contrast to equality, kindergarten - higher level education will be classified as A all throughout.

Will your answer be the same?
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:12 am
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

LRkun, I have a strange love for your code and its interpretation, but posts like that last weren't as clear as they might have been. Even with the code cracker guide, we've got "C." I hate not getting it. :P

Mr. AA: I come from the Catholicism too . ;)

We almost ought to do a study on this trend...
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:22 am
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3508Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

australopithecus wrote:
Did you discuss your questions of faith with anyone before you made your mind up?


I haven't made my mind up. I lack faith in God not believe there is no God. I'm simply waiting for any evidence to support the claim there is one. And no, I didn't discuss it, any discussion would have been irrelevant.

This question frightens me... It's almost like "could someone have prevented you if they had gotten violent?" I dunno why... I have no reason to suspect ill will... I know for me there was a LOT of emotional games involved in leaving the mormon church at the age of 14ish when I decided mormonsim was not True Christianityâ„¢ and that I didn't actually believe. That was my reward for seeking honest conversation on the subject: emotional manipulation. So I guess, from my past experience things like recommending that those who are "questioning their faith" consult someone of faith about faith is essentially recommending emotional manipulation... So a question like "did you talk to anyone" to me sounds like "i want to find out if the emotional manipulation works; that you left indicates to me that you didn't get attacked properly"...
Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:29 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Andiferous wrote:LRkun, I have a strange love for your code and its interpretation, but posts like that last weren't as clear as they might have been. Even with the code cracker guide, we've got "C." I hate not getting it. :P

Mr. AA: I come from the Catholicism too . ;)

We almost ought to do a study on this trend...



I'll give a simple example where there are two things to distinguish. My former examples are a bit difficult. The topic is equity, which is equality among equals.

To illustrate:

Girls go the female restroom

Image

Boys go to the mens restroom

Image

What do you think?

Pls. don't laugh hehe. ;)

-oOo-

What is the difference between a saint and a scientist?
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:29 am
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3508Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

borrofburi wrote:This question frightens me... It's almost like "could someone have prevented you if they had gotten violent?" I dunno why... I have no reason to suspect ill will... I know for me there was a LOT of emotional games involved in leaving the mormon church at the age of 14ish when I decided mormonsim was not True Christianityâ„¢ and that I didn't actually believe. That was my reward for seeking honest conversation on the subject: emotional manipulation. So I guess, from my past experience things like recommending that those who are "questioning their faith" consult someone of faith about faith is essentially recommending emotional manipulation... So a question like "did you talk to anyone" to me sounds like "i want to find out if the emotional manipulation works; that you left indicates to me that you didn't get attacked properly"...

I thought a moment more about it: his whole interrogation seems to be a "what went wrong" and a "what must we do to trap people like you?" line of reasoning. The question about whether your parents were still together was one of those that made me think similar things: "hmm maybe his parents broke up and he hates god; I've bet I got it now; I know what's to blame; now if we could fix those damn parents breaking up... fucking divorce, tearing apart our society and making more atheists...". That's the attitude that I get from these questions: a line of interrogation looking for something in particular to blame for your "hatred of god"; the discussion one is just one of those that I particularly loathe... at least, I think that's what's up.
Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:41 am
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

I agree completely. Girls usually go to the girl restroom, boys to the boy restroom, unless there is something extraordinarily pressing that causes them to go against social norms.
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:52 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Re: Faith Q&A.

Andiferous wrote:I agree completely. Girls usually go to the girl restroom, boys to the boy restroom, unless there is something extraordinarily pressing that causes them to go against social norms.


Equity caters the needs of a particular class. Likewise, the particular class is limited to a certain extent. However, with respect to another class, another set of rules govern, but which are equal for their own specific class. That's equity, which is not similar to the concept of equality.

Now, All I have to do is to ponder what our thread starter thinks about this idea.

;)
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:56 am
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

:shock:

Equity is classist?
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:59 am
Anachronous RexLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 2008Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:07 pmLocation: Kansas City, MO Gender: Male

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Andiferous wrote:I agree completely. Girls usually go to the girl restroom, boys to the boy restroom, unless there is something extraordinarily pressing that causes them to go against social norms.

I go in both!


But then again I'm a janitor (... well, I used to be in the summertime.)
Our prefrontal lobes are too small. Much too small. That's a problem of the birth canal, I'm very sorry to say for those that like their birth canals... tight.
-C. Hitchens.
Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:00 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Andiferous wrote::shock:

Equity is classist?


It can be applied to those of the same class. Ex. Tax the rich 30 percent. Tax the middle class 15 percent. Tax the poor 5 percent.

For people with similar circumstances, they should be treated equally in a way which if another system were used against them, it will not be to their benefit.
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:14 am
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Fortunately, this thread is already in the debate archives, or I might feel more depressed about not understanding it. ;)
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:43 am
australopithecusAdministratorUser avatarPosts: 4287Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

lrkun wrote:Will your answer be the same?


Having read your replies I have to say my answer does remain the same. Though treating equals equally, say in education systems, works well because you can't exactly hold a 4 year old to the same standard as a university student, in the rest of the world I see no reason why everyone should be treated 100% equally. Though as I said, I think this is just a nice dream but probably never will happen.

borrofburi wrote:So I guess, from my past experience things like recommending that those who are "questioning their faith" consult someone of faith about faith is essentially recommending emotional manipulation... So a question like "did you talk to anyone" to me sounds like "i want to find out if the emotional manipulation works; that you left indicates to me that you didn't get attacked properly".


Yeah, that's what first thought when he asked,and it's that reason I didn't ask anyones advice or opinion. I got to the stage where I was questioning religion and the concept of gods and came to the conclusion 'evidence or gtfo'. As I said with regards to him asking if I consult others on scientific matters, there would be no point asking for advice on faith I had already lost because it would just be x ammount of people given subjective reasons for why they think what.

borrofburi wrote:I thought a moment more about it: his whole interrogation seems to be a "what went wrong" and a "what must we do to trap people like you?" line of reasoning. The question about whether your parents were still together was one of those that made me think similar things: "hmm maybe his parents broke up and he hates god; I've bet I got it now; I know what's to blame; now if we could fix those damn parents breaking up... fucking divorce, tearing apart our society and making more atheists...". That's the attitude that I get from these questions: a line of interrogation looking for something in particular to blame for your "hatred of god"; the discussion one is just one of those that I particularly loathe... at least, I think that's what's up.
[/quote]

Again, exactly what I thought. So far it's just come across like probing to see what bad stuff has happened in my life that he can go "HA! This bad thing happened and that's clearly why you lost your faith!" When n actuality around the time I lost my faith nothing bad was happening. School wa ok, home was good, life was pretty sweet. It's the same logic as god of the gaps. I can't explain something, so I'm going to fill in the blank with whatever I find to make the most sense to me, and that is people are atheists because bad things happen to them and they blame god.
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:50 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Faith Q&A.

Theists allege that goodness comes from god. In denying the converse, that which is not good is not from god. If you lack the belief in god, where do you think goodness comes from?

;)
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Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:38 pm
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