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Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

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Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor
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bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

This I consider to be my first all-in-all legitimate debate/discussion. All prior were just youtube quarrels and such but this at least got somewhere, sort of. My opponent(unnamed out of courtesy) was civil ( almost to a fault) but otherwise made for an interesting discussion. I can say for sure they're not a troll and this was a serious debate. Going into this I didn't know much, especially in regards to scripture or prophecies. I stuck to a simple strategy of asking questions and not cutting them any slack when it comes to providing evidence.

No names, irrelevant content cut, otherwise unedited.

My opponent's points are in quotes, mine are without quotes, colored.

Opponent wrote:Oftentimes, people who say that they don't like religion being "shoved down their throat" don't seem to realize that just mentioning it or even trying to convert them does NOT constitute "shoving" by any means. I'm sorry, I didn't know there was a law that said you had to convert! I'm so, so very sorry! I didn't know you were stoned or horse-whipped if you didn't convert! My sincerest apologies! Seriously, though, if religion or something with it offends you, either press that little x on the top of your screen, or DON'T LOOK. If you don't want to be converted, just say, "Thank you, but I've made my decision" and be done with it! Not that hard. If they're a real Christian, they'll respect your decision.


I disagree. The situation is much more than polite theists going door to door asking people to convert. If you took time to actually look into the points people are making about religion being pushed you will see that while there isn't (much) violence towards apostates and the nonreligious, but rather a significant amount of shifty politics and agendas of many groups and leaders to undermine the constitution.

And what's your definition of a 'true Christian' and why should I take yours more seriously that the hundreds of other, different definitions other people give?


Opponent wrote:If it's more than going door to door, then I would agree that it's a bit much. However, this is more to call out the people who see a cross in the window of someone's house and cry "STOP SHOVING IT DOWN MY THROAT!" That's a hyperbole, but you know what I mean.

Well, think of it like this; when you think of animal rights, PETA isn't the group to take seriously. When you see Christians straying so far from the doctrines of God, they need correction, but I would advise not heeding them.


It is much more than going door to door. Regardless, if an atheist wants to say that then tough. The line is only crossed if they try to force you to change your belief and the like. This applies vise versa as well.

On what authority do you have to decide what needs to be corrected and what doesn't?


Opponent wrote:Well, this wasn't directed towards them, so they can think what they want.

On the authority of the Bible. If a Christian doesn't follow the Bible, they're doing it wrong. It really is that simple.


The entire bible? Or just the nice parts?

Opponent wrote:Everything. Everything from "In the Beginning" to "amen" is the inspired word of God. Not everything might be valid today because they were civil laws for another nation, but everything is still there. It didn't go away.

(Sacrifices were gotten rid of because of the coming of Jesus, though. That's the exception.)


On what evidence do you base the conclusion that the bible is divine word? And at that, which of the many versions?

Opponent wrote:It's prophesies that have come true. The version is the one which the disciples and prophets wrote with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


And these prophecies are?

Opponent wrote:There are thousands of them. How many do you want? I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but I'm dead serious with that question.


Name just one.

Opponent wrote:Yes sir.

Are you familiar with the empire prophesy in Daniel chapter 2 of the Bible? It's a long one, but when I saw that, it scared the crap out of me at first.


This is your show, do explain

Opponent wrote:Well, it's a long one, but I'll give it my best shot at shortening it.

Daniel 2 describes the dream of King Nebudchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, that Daniel the prophet was able to explain and interpret. He stated that there was a statue; a head of gold, chest and arms of silver, a torso of bronze, legs of iron, and feet of a mixture of iron and clay. Now, this was a prophesy for four (technically five, but really four) empires that would come to dominate a lot of the world, all of which had control over Israel. It's stated that the head of gold is Babylon. The prophetic part was that the chest and arms represented Persia, the torso Greece, the legs Rome, and the feet would be the remnants of the late and great Roman empire. This is all Biblical; I wouldn't make this up.

Guess what order it happened? Babylon. Persia. Greece. Rome. Roman remnant.

You might think this is just some arbitrary, vague prophesy in the Bible that can be filled with any four empires, but it's not the case. The statue alone has many properties of these empires.

In Babylon, historians like to make the comment that within this empire there was more gold than dust. They valued gold a lot. Gold was everywhere as the currency, statues, ect.

In Persia, gold was not valued to any real extent. Their currency was silver, one of the few empires on Earth to value silver over gold at any time in history. And there are two arms to this statue which also are made of silver. I'd like to point out that Persia was actually split between two small empires; Media and Persia. The Persian was the higher king, but the Medes were still part of the Media-Persian empire. We know it today as just Persia.

Greece. Guess what their shields were made out of? Bronze. They had laminated wood with bronze that covered it to achieve a more "invincible" appearance on the battlefield, but also to ward off arrows, such as the arrows of the Persian archers.

Rome used iron. Historians often call it the "Iron Monarchy" because it valued strength. In particular they had one technological and military marvel that won them countless battles; the pilum. It was an iron javelin with a tip that was meant to bend on impact so that it couldn't be thrown back. Their armor was iron. Their gladius was iron. I'd also like to point out that there are two legs on the statue. For much of its history, the Roman empire was split in two between the East and the West.

The clay in the feet represents the nations who were weak in Europe after Rome's fall. The iron represented those who were strong, such as the Holy Roman Empire and France. There are ten toes on the feet total, and I'd like to point out to you something kind of spooky; when Rome fell, exactly ten (you can research it and count it yourself; I did because I didn't believe it) provinces came about. Now, the Bible says that the monarchs of these nations would try and try to "mingle with the seed of men" or marry and intermarry in order to try and reunite Europe, but it would fail. Now, guess what became common practice in Europe? Intermarriage and marital alliances! In fact, that's how Aragon and Castile became united; Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand married.

There are so many others just about this. This prophesy is repeated in later chapters of Daniel wherein Greece would be said to conquer faster than the other four empires and would split into four (which they did). It talks about three nations being destroyed to make room for the new church (the Catholic church; I'm not a Catholic, btw) which is what happened.

Congrats. You have learned about one prophesy. Haha!


First things first,

How do you know this is legitimate to begin? In the brief research I did in the time waiting for your reply I found multiple resources discussing how Daniel doesn't match up with original scripture and doesn't entirely even accurately record the events of the time. How do you and I know this wasn't just written after the fact or was a fictional work or fraud of some kind to begin with?


Opponent wrote:I'm glad you asked. Feel free to ask and question; I did. I didn't always used to be a devout Christian, you know.

Well, the truth is that the dead sea scrolls aren't the only things that the Bible is compared with. Remember that kings and scribes kept records independent of the Jews. When matched up, the Bible and those records match 99% of the time, with the 1% due to translation errors because sentence structure in Hebrew is extremely different compared to English. I have no source for that on me at this moment, though, but I'm willing to give the source from which I got that information the benefit of the doubt.


Sorry but giving a statistic, which you can't provide a source for in the first place, the benefit of your doubt isn't how you prove a point, let alone a point that if true involves the eternal existence of the people involved. It may be enough for you but it's a different matter in convincing me. Provide multiple sources, such as the works of credible archaeologists and biblical scholars, who provide consistent, demonstrable evidence that Daniel was written before the events it claims to predict, which isn't refuted by other findings, and then I'll agree that it is legitimate to begin with.

Assuming the Bible is 99% accurate as far historical events this does not automatically make it entirely true and infallible. Spiderman literature and film and games are set in New York City and depict events accurate to the history of the city such as 9/11, but this does not demonstrate an existence of a real Spiderman, just as the fact the Bible references true locations and historical events does not in effect prove Jesus was the son of God and that there was a worldwide flood, miracles, et cetra- only direct evidence.

Furthermore it raises more doubts; Being entirely accurate historically may also indicate the scripture was written after the fact, and indeed Occam's razor leads one to conclude that it is more logical that a completely historically accurate work was written after the history it deals with, rather than by prophets or a God that knew ahead of time, simply because there are many assumptions and uncalled-for complications to the latter.

By no means am I dismissing your points or position, but it is simply the logical first step to verify that this prophetic scripture was written when you say it was before we even begin to consider what it actually says. Sorry if this seems like a stubborn move, but I want verification of this first point before moving on out of legitimate desire to find what is demonstrably true.


Opponent wrote:Well, I'm sorry, but looking for that source again would take a long time. I don't save these. I mean, if you really wanted to, you could search for them yourself and you might be successful.

The 99% was part of that long-lost source. If I find it, you'll be the first I let know. That wasn't me making it up; it was actually there.

Occam's razor is a fallacy in itself; I wouldn't trust in that fallacy.


Well until you provide the evidence I won't be taking your points seriously, simple as that. Sorry to waste your time, but I'll be available anytime you want to pick this back up.


And no, Occam's Razor is a philosophic principle that simply states that you shouldn't over complicate explanations if it's not necessary. It doesn't say that the complicated explanation is automatically wrong, it simply states that choosing that explanation isn't the most logical choice, as it's built upon a poor foundation; There are no logical contradictions in this.


Opponent wrote:Well, let me make you an offer you can't refuse. (reference?) I'll look for that source, because I know it exists, and when I find it, I'll let you know and we can continue.

I just disagree with it. Complicated is a rather subjective phrase, a value judgement as it would be called in science. What you consider complex I really don't.


It's up to you

And it isn't about the complexity rather than the assumptions. Basically it means you shouldn't explain something with an explanation that is itself unexplained.


Opponent wrote:Alright.

Ah, so it's about assumptions, not number of steps. Interesting. Still, I wouldn't rely on it as a primary philosophy by any means.


It's not a primary philosophy to begin with, it's a method of choosing logically between explanations when there are a set to choose from. It's always possible that the explanation with the most assumptions is correct, but this is rarely the case, hence the idea of Occam's Razor came about. If I'm walking on a torn up sidewalk and trip, I could have tripped over a crack or I might have been tripped by trouble-making goblins. I know the cracks exist, but I can only assume that goblins might exist, so I choose the former. I might just be wrong and goblins really did it, but until evidence for this comes up I have no logical reason to assert that they were the cause, as a more reasonable explanation exists already. Either way, Occam's Razor doesn't prevent you from changing your mind if evidence comes up, it is not a way of drawing conclusions, but a way of more easily a seeking out plausible conclusions.

-------------------

The opponent hasn't replied since, it's technically an open debate but I would hope they actually went to research their facts. I'll add more if this changes, but i'll post this to archives rather than wait on their reply for another week. It's interesting how for all their typing the discussion never even touched the actual content of the alleged prophecy, I wouldn't move on until he verified it was actually legitimate to begin with.

Where did either of us go wrong? Any suggestions for future debates? Comments in general? Don't mind my shameless use of the spiderman argument from TAE

Hopefully I didn't do injustice to Occam's Razor.

If this is in the wrong place I apologize.
Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:21 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3339Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

bluejatheist wrote:
Opponent wrote:Everything. Everything from "In the Beginning" to "amen" is the inspired word of God. Not everything might be valid today because they were civil laws for another nation, but everything is still there. It didn't go away.

(Sacrifices were gotten rid of because of the coming of Jesus, though. That's the exception.)


On what evidence do you base the conclusion that the bible is divine word? And at that, which of the many versions?


Right there I would have gone a different way, and pointed out some of the ludicrous laws found in the bible (e.g. stoning people who work on the Sabbath, not being able to wear clothes made of two different fabrics, being able to keep slaves, etc"¦). Than I would have asked him why he does not follow those laws since they are found in the bible and point out by his logic, he, himself, is not a Christian.

However, nice job keeping his feet on the fire about his prophecy claim. That prophecy seems somewhat vague to me and could have represented any number of things besides empires.
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bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

Plus, if the prophecy is supposed to have predicted all the coming empire between then and the end of the world, it forgot the British, French, Spanish and other European empires, the Third Reich and the Empire of Japan at their peaks, the Soviet Union/Russian Federation, the United States, China, all of which are examples of essentially superpowers that followed the persians, greeks, romans, etc. Either way it's a prophecy built upon interpretation, and from what research I've done, was no more than some sort of morale-booster written during a turbulent time.

I thought of going with the biblical morality, but I decided to sit back and let simple questions pick apart their points.
Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:08 am
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

bluejatheist wrote:
Plus, if the prophecy is supposed to have predicted all the coming empire between then and the end of the world, it forgot the British, French, Spanish and other European empires, the Third Reich and the Empire of Japan at their peaks, the Soviet Union/Russian Federation, the United States, China, all of which are examples of essentially superpowers that followed the persians, greeks, romans, etc. Either way it's a prophecy built upon interpretation, and from what research I've done, was no more than some sort of morale-booster written during a turbulent time.


I thought of going with the biblical morality, but I decided to sit back and let simple questions pick apart their points.


No it did not forget them we are in the feet mixed with Iron and clay time period(which means iron and clay don't mix well this is causing problems trying to unite the world into a one world government) according to the book of Danial where we have Iron - communism,Islam in the east and clay in the west -freedom,democracy,Christianity.The ten toes will come in the future once the anti-Christ takes over the one world government that will come in the future when the anti-Christ and fake Christian take over the one world government turn it into the mark of the beast system and the earth will be divided up into 10 sections and the anti-Christ will appoint ten kings in one hour to rule over them ten sections(Revelation 17:12) .
Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:02 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

You cannot fully understand the prophecies in the book of Daniel without blending them with prophecies in Revelation but when blended we get a much clearer picture and keep in mind the book of Daniel was written about 1000 years before Revelation was by John on the Isle of Patmos.These prophecies are thousands of years old which blows prophets like Nastradamus away.
Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:18 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

When Daniel was alive King Nebachadnezzar was the King of Babylon and Daniel lived in Babylon which is Iraq today and archeology has proven King Nebachadnezzar was indeed the King of Babylon at one time Saddam Hussien restored a lot of the ancient Babylonian empire and wanted to be like King Nebachadnezzar. But Daniel told King Nebachanezzar the interpretation of his dream when none of the astrologers,magicians,etc could and he told king Nebachadnezzar not only that the Medes and Persians would conquer Babylon but also revealed the empires that would come later first we have Babylon,the the Medes and Persians,then Greece,then Rome,then the feet mixed with iron and clay which is the time period we are now living in and then in the future the ten toes when the antichrist and fake Christian take over the one world government turn it nto the mark of the beast system,divide the earth into 10 sections and appoint 10 kings to rule over them 10 sections.

I have no doubt these prophecies will be fulfilled too then Jesus will come back destroy the anti-Christ and rule and reign for 1000 years.Hopefully you won't be here through the tribulation period and you must get saved by Jesus to avoid it,be ready when the rapture happens or your faith will be tested when you must take a mark in your right hand or forehead and worship the anti-Christ as god or be beheaded and not be able to buy or sell.Either way your faith will be tested where you choose Jesus or the anti-Christ or perhaps atheism.
Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:46 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:51 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

I was watching Stephen Hawking's a brave new world and it tells us if you are being tracked everywhere you go if you have your cell phone on.Imagine in the future when the anti-Christ can use this to track you anywhere you go.
Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:59 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

My last points for now. Do not ignore these prophecies and then try to bash God by twisting the old testament laws to make God out to be evil.It won't work because these prophecies are going to be fulfilled so you might as well repent.There will come a time when these prophecies are fulfilled and if you ignored Christians warnings you will be shocked when one day you are living in a cashless society and must take a mark and worship the anti-Christ as God or be beheaded.Also the anti-Christ will come from Babylon which is an Islamic country and we know terrorists behead infidels.Muslims will be decieved and will see the anti-christ as their majde who they believe is coming to unite the world to Islam,they also believe Jesus comes back with him to tell everybody that he is not the son of God and in Revelation we have this fake Christian the lamb with two horns that brings in the mark of the beast system,the two horns represent trying to unite the east and west to worship the anti-Christ as God and it is him that makes an image of the anti-Christ(perhaps a clone,etc) but he makes everybody rich or poor receive the mark of the beast.
Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:19 pm
MugnutsBloggerUser avatarPosts: 383Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Debate; Daniel Prophecy, Occam's Razor

Nothing like jumping in on a going on three year old thread spouting doomsday nonsense with the equivalent of an internet version of the sandwich board two-piece.

I shouldn't be so quick too judge though as I share the same amount of marvel comics knowledge that equals this useless information.

"Spice is life." ;)
"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne
Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:39 am
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