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Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

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Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?
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thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:In the Bible God talks about us doing evil things that He did not know we would do.

Jeremiah 19:5 "They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind."



Dragan Glas wrote:In the Hebrew, it's actually "My heart" - the English translations use "My mind" as a figure-of-speech.
Heart always implies a compassionate or inner expression of ones thoughts or mind. When God says that the hearts of men are evil(llike in gen 6:5), it does not mean that if took a knife and cut there hearts out, then they would not be evil anymore. "Heart" implies mind.







Dragan Glas wrote:Such sacrifices were already expressly forbidden in Leviticus 20:2 - not to mention Jeremiah 7:31; Jeremiah 32:35, 2 Kings 23:10. The fact that such sacrifices were offered is indicated in Psalms 106:37-38.
Yeah. People make retroactive statements all the time. I don't undestand your point. If my son died in a car crash 8 years ago and I sent you a PM today that said "I had know idea my son would die in a car accident" would you argue that I should have know this would happen because he's already died in one. 8 years ago? That makes no sense.
Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:55 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2799Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Greetings,

thenexttodie wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:In the Bible God talks about us doing evil things that He did not know we would do.

Jeremiah 19:5 "They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind."

Dragan Glas wrote:In the Hebrew, it's actually "My heart" - the English translations use "My mind" as a figure-of-speech.

Heart always implies a compassionate or inner expression of ones thoughts or mind. When God says that the hearts of men are evil(llike in gen 6:5), it does not mean that if took a knife and cut there hearts out, then they would not be evil anymore. "Heart" implies mind.

That doesn't change the fact that the verse does not imply that God didn't foresee what his people would do.

You are reading into the verse something that isn't there.

thenexttodie wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Such sacrifices were already expressly forbidden in Leviticus 20:2 - not to mention Jeremiah 7:31; Jeremiah 32:35, 2 Kings 23:10. The fact that such sacrifices were offered is indicated in Psalms 106:37-38.

Yeah. People make retroactive statements all the time. I don't undestand your point. If my son died in a car crash 8 years ago and I sent you a PM today that said "I had know idea my son would die in a car accident" would you argue that I should have know this would happen because he's already died in one. 8 years ago? That makes no sense.

The point is that what the people were doing - sacrificing their children to God - had already been forbidden in times past.

The verse and subsequent ones are castigating idolatry, which is what this practice was.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:29 am
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Dragan Glas wrote:That doesn't change the fact that the verse does not imply that God didn't foresee what his people would do.



So you believe its possible that the heart is capable of thought? Interesting.
Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:40 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2799Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Greetings,

thenexttodie wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:That doesn't change the fact that the verse does not imply that God didn't foresee what his people would do.

So you believe its possible that the heart is capable of thought? Interesting.

No, at no point did I say or imply that.

I pointed out that your claim that the verse indicates that God is not omniscient is not true.

If you consult a Commentary on this chapter this should become clear to you.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:53 am
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:That doesn't change the fact that the verse does not imply that God didn't foresee what his people would do.



So you believe its possible that the heart is capable of thought? Interesting.


Wasn't this a common thought in bible times (and in ancient world in general)? Also, why are you avoiding me?
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:27 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:So you believe its possible that the heart is capable of thought? Interesting.

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,No, at no point did I say or imply that.

I pointed out that your claim that the verse indicates that God is not omniscient is not true.


I think it does. There are also other verses that seem to indicate God is not omniscient.
Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:08 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie]

So you believe its possible that the heart is capable of thought? Interesting.[/quote]

[quote="Bango Skank wrote:
Wasn't this a common thought in bible times (and in ancient world in general)? Also, why are you avoiding me?


Yes, other organs were too. I thought I answered all your posts. I will go back and check now.
Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:13 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:People can debate over the color of an orange.



Bango Skank wrote:Or what fruit it is, but it's irrelevant for now. Your claim that bible is clear is refuted.


I don't see how.

thenexttodie wrote:Abraham offering up his son as a sacrifice is reflected in Gods son being a sacrifice later. It's just an example of a clear non-prophetic redundancy in the bible.


Bango Skank wrote:That is too generic information. Sacrifices are / were pretty common. Just as too generic as "prophecies" about earthquakes and wars between nations. There are also many differences between those two stories.


That's a good point. But it is the only instance we have of God asking someone to offer up their son as a sacrifice to HIm.

thenexttodie wrote:The Bible contains accounts of God changing his mind.


I agree, but bible also states that God cannot change his mind.[/quote]

In order for God to be unchanging in his commitment to righteousness and his love for us he must be able to change his mind based on our behavior.
Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:46 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2799Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Greetings,

thenexttodie wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:So you believe its possible that the heart is capable of thought? Interesting.

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,No, at no point did I say or imply that.

I pointed out that your claim that the verse indicates that God is not omniscient is not true.


I think it does. There are also other verses that seem to indicate God is not omniscient.

The fact that you think/believe it does or that other verses "seem to indicate" in your mind does not make it true.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:20 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Dragan Glas wrote:The fact that you think/believe it does or that other verses "seem to indicate" in your mind does not make it true.


So you expect an irrational confliction of God's mind vs God's heart? Yes?
Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:52 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2799Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Greetings,

thenexttodie wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:The fact that you think/believe it does or that other verses "seem to indicate" in your mind does not make it true.

So you expect an irrational confliction of God's mind vs God's heart? Yes?

The verse does not mean what you think it means.

God not intending - nor wanting - people perform human sacrifice as a means of worship does not mean that he didn't foresee it.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:03 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatar
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Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:There are many babies born each year which are very sick or have a serious genetic defect. Do you think think that God wants you to kill them
I do not see how this contradicts the point about god, if he "cares about us", being a horrible caretaker.

thenexttodie wrote:I think it does. There are also other verses that seem to indicate God is not omniscient.

See the case in point. If god "cares about us", why would he fill his book with many failing prophecies and passages that lead to different, and contradicting, interpretations? Because it really makes it seems as if the bible was only written by men.

Because, you appear to agree with the failed prophecies, let's go with the contradictions on omniscience:
- God is supposed to know everything (1 John 3:20).
- That is supposed to include knowing everything that will occur until the end of history (Isaiah 46:9-10).
- It is also supposed to include knowing our very thoughts (Psalm 139:4).
- And hearts (1 Kings 8:39).

If god is not omniscient, he should at least know that the book that's attributed to him makes him look like he is.
If the bible is clear how come you interpret it as indicating god is not omniscient and others see the above as indicating he is?
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" - A public information message from the League of Reason's christians
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:41 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Dragan Glas wrote:
God not intending - nor wanting - people perform human sacrifice as a means of worship does not mean that he didn't foresee it.

Kindest regards,

James


That's a good point. If you would like to engage in a formal debate on whether or not the God of the Bible, is omniscient, we can do so stating now. On this forum! Lets, say 3 or 4 posts each over the next 3 days. If you would like to start now you can, or I can start tomorrow. Omniscient will be defined as; knowing everything, all the time, including every single detail of every possible future event.

Are you interested?
Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:08 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:There are many babies born each year which are very sick or have a serious genetic defect. Do you think think that God wants you to kill them
MarsCydonia wrote: I do not see how this contradicts the point about god, if he "cares about us", being a horrible caretaker.

Well You think that if a person is sick or if a baby is sick than maybe instead of loving them and caring for them, we should kill them. Right? You believe unborn babies should maybe sometimes be killed too, maybe all the time, it doesn't matter to you. And you also believe that if someone is suicidal, it maybe best to let that person kill himself.

thenexttodie wrote:I think it does. There are also other verses that seem to indicate God is not omniscient.

MarsCydonia wrote:See the case in point. If god "cares about us", why would he fill his book with many...passages that lead to different, and contradicting, interpretations?

[/quote]Unless you can give an specific example I cannot give you a specific answer.
Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:52 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Bango Skank wrote:Or what fruit it is, but it's irrelevant for now. Your claim that bible is clear is refuted.


thenexttodie wrote:I don't see how.


Then go back and read my previous answer. This is common, high school level knowledge. There is nothing to debate about that fact.

Bango Skank wrote:That is too generic information. Sacrifices are / were pretty common. Just as too generic as "prophecies" about earthquakes and wars between nations. There are also many differences between those two stories.


thenexttodie wrote:That's a good point. But it is the only instance we have of God asking someone to offer up their son as a sacrifice to HIm.



Only instance in the Bible you mean? and God asking himself personally and specifically someone's own son you mean? If we are talking about just human sacrifices to God in general, there are other instances (For example: Jephthah & his daughter, Josiah sacrificing pagan priests to God on altar. Then there is at least one place where pagan king sacrifices his own son to god Chemosh, causing israelitis to flee with their God and lose almost certain victory.).

Also, what is your point of this being only one instance? You already agreed that there many differences between this and Jesus and it's too generic information.


thenexttodie wrote:In order for God to be unchanging in his commitment to righteousness and his love for us he must be able to change his mind based on our behavior..


Yet he is unable to change his mind based on our behaviour, if we have blasphemed the holy spirit.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:54 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

Bango Skank wrote:
Yet he is unable to change his mind based on our behaviour, if we have blasphemed the holy spirit.
What do you think this means?
Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:01 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:That's a good point. But it is the only instance we have of God asking someone to offer up their son as a sacrifice to HIm.



Bango Skank wrote: Only instance in the Bible you mean? and God asking himself personally and specifically someone's own son you mean? ..
Yes.

Bango Skank wrote: Also, what is your point of this being only one instance? You already agreed that there many differences between this and Jesus and it's too generic information...
No I didn't.
Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:07 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:Yes.


Aaaand.......?

thenexttodie wrote:No I didn't.


Oh, im so sorry. I thought that saying "That's a good point." you were agreeing them.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:40 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatar
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Posts: 551Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:Well You think that if a person is sick or if a baby is sick than maybe instead of loving them and caring for them, we should kill them. Right? You believe unborn babies should maybe sometimes be killed too, maybe all the time, it doesn't matter to you. And you also believe that if someone is suicidal, it maybe best to let that person kill himself.

What the hell are you on? Whatever you are taking, it is not actually giving you the psychic power to read minds because this is not remotely close to anything I may believe.

And whatever substance-induced thoughts you have about mine, I still do not see how this contradicts the point about god, if he "cares about us", being a horrible caretaker.


thenexttodie wrote:Unless you can give an specific example I cannot give you a specific answer.

Did you miss what I wrote?
MarsCydonia wrote:- God is supposed to know everything (1 John 3:20).
- That is supposed to include knowing everything that will occur until the end of history (Isaiah 46:9-10).
- It is also supposed to include knowing our very thoughts (Psalm 139:4).
- And hearts (1 Kings 8:39).

If the bible is clear, how come you interpret it as indicating god is not omniscient and others see the above as indicating he is?
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" - A public information message from the League of Reason's christians
Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:54 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 610Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

thenexttodie wrote:Yes.


Bango Skank wrote:Aaaand.......?

And what?

thenexttodie wrote:No I didn't.


Bango Skank wrote:Oh, im so sorry. I thought that saying "That's a good point." you were agreeing them.
No.
Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:56 pm
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