Page 2 of 4

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:14 pm
by thenexttodie
thenexttodie wrote:I disagree that the bible is ambiguous.


Bango Skank wrote:If its clear and not ambiguous, then why all the differend interpretation and doctrine fights?
Can you be more specific?

thenexttodie wrote:In fact, it is so clear and redundant that even atheists (even I think some on this forum) argue that the account Jesus could not have been factual because it fits to well with the old testament.


Bango Skank wrote:I take you are talking about so called prophecies.
Not exclusively. For example The laws of priesthood were not prophecies. Stolen birthrights are not prophecies. Abraham offering his son as a sacrifice was not a prophecy. Yet the significance of these are only made clear after Jesus was born.

There are unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Like when God says he is going to destroy a city and then the people there repent for the evil they have done, God is sorry for the vengeance he planned against these people and the prophecy is unfulfilled.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:41 pm
by Bango Skank
thenexttodie wrote:[Can you be more specific?


Haven't you studied history of your infallible book? For example the question, was Jesus a human that got adopted by God or was he fully God from the beginning. I am not interested in your personal interpretation. I just want you to acknowledge that there were (and still is) a debates about various things regarding "absolute truth" of your religion. Just admit it and stop playing dumb.

thenexttodie wrote:Not exclusively. For example The laws of priesthood were not prophecies. Stolen birthrights are not prophecies. Abraham offering his son as a sacrifice was not a prophecy. Yet the significance of these are only made clear after Jesus was born.


You for some reason ignored all my points. How these things fit perfectly into OT, please explain.

thenexttodie wrote:[There are unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Like when God says he is going to destroy a city and then the people there repent for the evil they have done, God is sorry for the vengeance he planned against these people and the prophecy is unfulfilled.


But God cannot change his mind like a human, so how you explain those?

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:16 pm
by Gnug215
thenexttodie wrote:
There are unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Like when God says he is going to destroy a city and then the people there repent for the evil they have done, God is sorry for the vengeance he planned against these people and the prophecy is unfulfilled.



Sooo... you're saying... the Bible actually has unfulfilled prophecies?

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:51 pm
by Steelmage99
I would like to know how to comprehensively distinguish an unfulfilled prophesy from an incorrect one.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:47 am
by Gnug215
Steelmage99 wrote:I would like to know how to comprehensively distinguish an unfulfilled prophesy from an incorrect one.


Me too. I mean, in my post, I should probably have said "failed prophecies".

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:21 pm
by thenexttodie
thenexttodie wrote:[Can you be more specific?


Bango Skank wrote:Haven't you studied history of your infallible book? For example the question, was Jesus a human that got adopted by God or was he fully God from the beginning. I am not interested in your personal interpretation. I just want you to acknowledge that there were (and still is) a debates about various things regarding "absolute truth" of your religion. Just admit it and stop playing dumb.


People can debate over the color of an orange.

thenexttodie wrote:Not exclusively. For example The laws of priesthood were not prophecies. Stolen birthrights are not prophecies. Abraham offering his son as a sacrifice was not a prophecy. Yet the significance of these are only made clear after Jesus was born.


Bango Skank wrote: How these things fit perfectly into OT, please explain.
Abraham offering up his son as a sacrifice is reflected in Gods son being a sacrifice later. It's just an example of a clear non-prophetic redundancy in the bible.


thenexttodie wrote:[There are unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Like when God says he is going to destroy a city and then the people there repent for the evil they have done, God is sorry for the vengeance he planned against these people and the prophecy is unfulfilled.


Bango Skank wrote:But God cannot change his mind like a human, so how you explain those?
The Bible contains accounts of God changing his mind.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:52 pm
by thenexttodie
Gnug215 wrote: Sooo... you're saying... the Bible actually has unfulfilled prophecies?
Yes. Our relationship with Him is more important than prophecy. So when God told Jonah to goto Nineveh and tell them their city will be destroyed in 40 days and the people actually turned to God and seriously repented, God also repented and did not destroy their city.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:59 pm
by thenexttodie
Steelmage99 wrote:I would like to know how to comprehensively distinguish an unfulfilled prophesy from an incorrect one.


Then be a Christian and devote much time to studying gods word.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:08 pm
by Steelmage99
thenexttodie wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:I would like to know how to comprehensively distinguish an unfulfilled prophesy from an incorrect one.


Then be a Christian and devote much time to studying gods word.


I take your non-answer to mean that you can't.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:26 pm
by Bango Skank
thenexttodie wrote:People can debate over the color of an orange.


Or what fruit it is, but it's irrelevant for now. Your claim that bible is clear is refuted.

thenexttodie wrote:Abraham offering up his son as a sacrifice is reflected in Gods son being a sacrifice later. It's just an example of a clear non-prophetic redundancy in the bible.


That is too generic information. Sacrifices are / were pretty common. Just as too generic as "prophecies" about earthquakes and wars between nations. There are also many differences between those two stories.

thenexttodie wrote:The Bible contains accounts of God changing his mind.


I agree, but bible also states that God cannot change his mind.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:02 pm
by Gnug215
thenexttodie wrote:
Gnug215 wrote: Sooo... you're saying... the Bible actually has unfulfilled prophecies?
Yes. Our relationship with Him is more important than prophecy. So when God told Jonah to goto Nineveh and tell them their city will be destroyed in 40 days and the people actually turned to God and seriously repented, God also repented and did not destroy their city.


I've always been taught that God was perfect, all-knowing and unchanging.

I don't think I've ever seen a Christian say otherwise, so you'd be the first... if that's what you're indeed saying?

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:21 pm
by thenexttodie
Gnug215 wrote:
I've always been taught that God was perfect, all-knowing and unchanging.

I don't think I've ever seen a Christian say otherwise, so you'd be the first... if that's what you're indeed saying?
God is perfect and unchanging in His Justice and his love for us. Thus His commitment to these must override every prophecy. And they do.

God gave us freewill, he does not force us to love him. Because of this, he does not have an all knowing, complete knowledge of every future event. He did not know how evil people who hate him would become. He says all of this in the bible.

I am sorry you were taught otherwise.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:44 pm
by MarsCydonia
thenexttodie wrote:God is perfect and unchanging in His Justice and his love for us. Thus His commitment to these must override every prophecy. And they do.

God gave us freewill, he does not force us to love him. Because of this, he does not have an all knowing, complete knowledge of every future event. He did not know how evil people who hate him would become. He says all of this in the bible.

I am sorry you were taught otherwise.


If the prophecies are overriden, then they're failed prophecies. Failed prophecies are a good indicator of a lack of all-knowledge/omniscience.

Of course, we have different ideas of what "perfect justice and perfect love" but then, so do a lot of christians...

You should indeed be sorry for the versions of justice and love christianity teaches.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:53 pm
by thenexttodie
MarsCydonia wrote:
If the prophecies are overriden, then they're failed prophecies. Failed prophecies are a good indicator of a lack of all-knowledge/omniscience.


Right. When God told Jonah to tell the people in Nineveh that their city will be destroyed in 40 days because of their wickedness, we call that a prophecy. But the people in Nineveh turned to God and repented. So God had compassion for them and they were not destroyed. So it was a failed prophecy. It failed because god cares more about us than fulfilling prophecy.







You should indeed be sorry for the versions of justice and love christianity teaches.[/quote]

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:00 pm
by MarsCydonia
thenexttodie wrote:It failed because god cares more about us than fulfilling prophecy.

Is that the only possibility? Because I see more of them:
- God is not omniscient
- God does not care about us.
There's plenty of motives that can be attributed to this fictional character. I don't see "because he cares about us" to be the best explanation for that particular story.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:13 pm
by thenexttodie
thenexttodie wrote: It failed because god cares more about us than fulfilling prophecy.

MarsCydonia wrote: Is that the only possibility?
Yes.

MarsCydonia wrote:Because I see more of them:
- God is not omniscient
In the Bible God talks about us doing evil things that He did not know we would do.

Jeremiah 19:5 "They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind."



MarsCydonia wrote:God does not care about us.
God does care about you but he will eventually put you someplace where you can live without him if that's what you want.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:45 pm
by MarsCydonia
You realize that it isn't the only possibility because you say so?

thenexttodie wrote:God does care about you but he will eventually put you someplace where you can live without him if that's what you want.

See, here's another possibility:
God cares about me but he's just really, really bad at caring for people. Horrible at it, really.

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:29 pm
by Dragan Glas
Greetings,

thenexttodie wrote:
MarsCydonia wrote:Because I see more of them: - God is not omniscient

In the Bible God talks about us doing evil things that He did not know we would do.

Jeremiah 19:5 "They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind."

This is simply not the case.

In the Hebrew, it's actually "My heart" - the English translations use "My mind" as a figure-of-speech.

Such sacrifices were already expressly forbidden in Leviticus 20:2 - not to mention Jeremiah 7:31; Jeremiah 32:35, 2 Kings 23:10. The fact that such sacrifices were offered is indicated in Psalms 106:37-38.

Kindest regards,

James

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:49 pm
by thenexttodie
MarsCydonia wrote:God cares about me but he's just really, really bad at caring for people. Horrible at it, really.


There are many babies born each year which are very sick or have a serious genetic defect. Do you think think that God wants you to kill them?

Re: Do atheists believe we can not know if there is a God?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:00 pm
by Steelmage99
thenexttodie wrote:
MarsCydonia wrote:God cares about me but he's just really, really bad at caring for people. Horrible at it, really.


There are many babies born each year which are very sick or have a serious genetic defect. Do you think think that God wants you to kill them?


Somehow I have a hard time connecting those two sentences. Can you elaborate a bit on that?