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"Let us reason amongst the brethren"

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"Let us reason amongst the brethren"
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abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Young earth creationism VS Old earth Gap theory creationism VS Intelligent design VS Old earth creationism(Hugh Ross)

Which is the most valid?

I am a Christian and I'm an old earth Gap theory creationist.

"Let us reason amongst the brethren"

1.Problems with young earth creationism : Ignores forensic geological evidence of an old universe and earth to defend a traditional biblical teaching against those evil evolutionists when it makes Christians look dumber scientifically than we already are to evolutionists/atheists.

2.Problems with Old earth gap theory creationism : Not many that I can see this was a teaching in the church long before Charles Darwin wrote his books the only quibble I might can see is making up stuff about Lucifer being in control of the former world that was on this earth until he and a third of the angels rebelled against God,I'm not saying it is wrong but need to make sure it is verified biblically because we are not supposed to add or take away from God's word.

3.Problems with Intelligent Design : Any religion can use this as muslims do and instead of saying Jesus we must say "Higher Power" it beats evolutionists in debates though probably better than all the others because the Gap theory is not really known about or understood properly and because most people have a hard time believing a universe and earth can just "poof" by natural means into existence most people believe in some kind of god figure,ghosts,aliens,paranormal stuff,etc even if they are not religious or churchy type people.

4.Problems with Old earth creationism(Hugh Ross) : Have very good evidence to back up an old earth but yet stretch the days of the 6 days of creation beyond 24 hours days when that makes me cringe as a Christian about adding or taking away from the bible.I'm not sure it is wise to do it without clear biblical reasons to lengthen the 6 days of creation.The science right now does seem to go against 24 hour days though with man and Neanderthal living side by side only 40 thousand years ago,much more recent than previously thought especially when you add in religion,music,art that starts showing up about 25,000 thousand years ago but still not 6000 years ago.Rejects a global flood in Noah's flood and believes in local floods globally instead.
Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:29 am
InfernoContributorUser avatarPosts: 2298Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pmLocation: Vienna, Austria Gender: Cake

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Problems with gap creationism:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, which apparently includes stars, yet there was no light? And if it does not include stars, how were they formed after the earth?

First of many.

Old earth gap creationism is complete horseshit.
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." ― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I shall achieve my objectives through the power... of Science!" --LessWrong
Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:28 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2772Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Greetings,

abelcainsbrother wrote:Young earth creationism VS Old earth Gap theory creationism VS Intelligent design VS Old earth creationism(Hugh Ross)

Which is the most valid?

I am a Christian and I'm an old earth Gap theory creationist.

"Let us reason amongst the brethren"

1.Problems with young earth creationism : Ignores forensic geological evidence of an old universe and earth to defend a traditional biblical teaching against those evil evolutionists when it makes Christians look dumber scientifically than we already are to evolutionists/atheists.

Agreed.

abelcainsbrother wrote:2.Problems with Old earth gap theory creationism : Not many that I can see this was a teaching in the church long before Charles Darwin wrote his books the only quibble I might can see is making up stuff about Lucifer being in control of the former world that was on this earth until he and a third of the angels rebelled against God,I'm not saying it is wrong but need to make sure it is verified biblically because we are not supposed to add or take away from God's word.

Really?

This is what you've been doing throughout your misrepresentation of what the bible says and means.

An example being your claim from the other thread that Cain was a Neanderthal based on the "mark" being the brow-ridge of the Neaderthal skull - and that, therefore, Cain's descendants were all Neanderthals who died out due to "the flood".

Are you really so incognisant of what you are doing?

abelcainsbrother wrote:3.Problems with Intelligent Design : Any religion can use this as muslims do and instead of saying Jesus we must say "Higher Power" it beats evolutionists in debates though probably better than all the others because the Gap theory is not really known about or understood properly and because most people have a hard time believing a universe and earth can just "poof" by natural means into existence most people believe in some kind of god figure,ghosts,aliens,paranormal stuff,etc even if they are not religious or churchy type people.

ID is sophistry: it is intended as a means to insert a supernatural creator into science and the classroom.

ID doesn't "beat(s) evolutionists in debates" - as you'd know if you read/watched any debates where this is used.

abelcainsbrother wrote:4.Problems with Old earth creationism(Hugh Ross) : Have very good evidence to back up an old earth but yet stretch the days of the 6 days of creation beyond 24 hours days when that makes me cringe as a Christian about adding or taking away from the bible.I'm not sure it is wise to do it without clear biblical reasons to lengthen the 6 days of creation.The science right now does seem to go against 24 hour days though with man and Neanderthal living side by side only 40 thousand years ago,much more recent than previously thought especially when you add in religion,music,art that starts showing up about 25,000 thousand years ago but still not 6000 years ago.Rejects a global flood in Noah's flood and believes in local floods globally instead.

So now you accept that Neanderthals and Man lived at the same time? Pre-Adam?

And please note that Neanderthals weren't the brutes you claimed them to be: they looked after their sick, buried their dead, had art and language.

You "cringe as a Christian about adding or taking away from the bible" when someone else does this - yet seem quite oblivious to your own transgressions.

Need I remind you of "the mote and the beam"?

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:09 am
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 4985Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

:lol:

Dragan Glas reflects that which I would have posted.
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:52 pm
ldmitrukUser avatarPosts: 218Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:47 pmLocation: Edmonton, Alberta Gender: Cake

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

abelcainsbrother wrote:Young earth creationism VS Old earth Gap theory creationism VS Intelligent design VS Old earth creationism(Hugh Ross)

Which is the most valid?

I am a Christian and I'm an old earth Gap theory creationist.

"Let us reason amongst the brethren"

1.Problems with young earth creationism : Ignores forensic geological evidence of an old universe and earth to defend a traditional biblical teaching against those evil evolutionists when it makes Christians look dumber scientifically than we already are to evolutionists/atheists.

2.Problems with Old earth gap theory creationism : Not many that I can see this was a teaching in the church long before Charles Darwin wrote his books the only quibble I might can see is making up stuff about Lucifer being in control of the former world that was on this earth until he and a third of the angels rebelled against God,I'm not saying it is wrong but need to make sure it is verified biblically because we are not supposed to add or take away from God's word.

3.Problems with Intelligent Design : Any religion can use this as muslims do and instead of saying Jesus we must say "Higher Power" it beats evolutionists in debates though probably better than all the others because the Gap theory is not really known about or understood properly and because most people have a hard time believing a universe and earth can just "poof" by natural means into existence most people believe in some kind of god figure,ghosts,aliens,paranormal stuff,etc even if they are not religious or churchy type people.

4.Problems with Old earth creationism(Hugh Ross) : Have very good evidence to back up an old earth but yet stretch the days of the 6 days of creation beyond 24 hours days when that makes me cringe as a Christian about adding or taking away from the bible.I'm not sure it is wise to do it without clear biblical reasons to lengthen the 6 days of creation.The science right now does seem to go against 24 hour days though with man and Neanderthal living side by side only 40 thousand years ago,much more recent than previously thought especially when you add in religion,music,art that starts showing up about 25,000 thousand years ago but still not 6000 years ago.Rejects a global flood in Noah's flood and believes in local floods globally instead.


None of the above
Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:00 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Inferno wrote:Problems with gap creationism:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, which apparently includes stars, yet there was no light? And if it does not include stars, how were they formed after the earth?

First of many.

Old earth gap creationism is complete horseshit.


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.You are correct this includes the stars,planets but even life that was in the former world there was a gap of time between verse 1 and verse 2 Which says "And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So in verse 1 we have the stars shining but in verse 2 we don't,something happened between verse 1 and 2 God had made the stars go out which would've produced water - science which would have flooded the universe with water and the earth which explains why the earth was flooded but also there is water in outerspace too way more than what is on the earth it is frozen though.God turned the stars back on in day 4 when he was creating this world.Notice in verse 2 The earth is already there fully formed but with no life and there is water on it too,it is flooded and frozen though. God did not create the earth without form and void and then decorate it in the creation process like young earthers think no God created the earth to be inhabited from the very beginning and later the earth became without form and void and all life died and perished which the fossils verify and eventually God created this world with different kinds of life the fossils testify to this also.
Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:31 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Dragan Glas

Really?

This is what you've been doing throughout your misrepresentation of what the bible says and means.

An example being your claim from the other thread that Cain was a Neanderthal based on the "mark" being the brow-ridge of the Neaderthal skull - and that, therefore, Cain's descendants were all Neanderthals who died out due to "the flood".

Are you really so incognisant of what you are doing?


I have not changed anything from in the other thread I do believe Neanderthals died out in noah's flood but why do you deny it has baffled secular scientists why Neanderthal died out yet man lived? Even your evolution buddies know certain scientists were baffled yet they don't consider the bible and Noah's flood.Science is not out to prove the bible true it is up to us Christians to explain it.

So now you accept that Neanderthals and Man lived at the same time? Pre-Adam?

And please note that Neanderthals weren't the brutes you claimed them to be: they looked after their sick, buried their dead, had art and language.

You "cringe as a Christian about adding or taking away from the bible" when someone else does this - yet seem quite oblivious to your own transgressions.

Need I remind you of "the mote and the beam"?


Again I have not changed anything from what I said in the other thread yes I believe Neanderthal and man lived at the same time and yes I do believe Neanderthals were the descendents of Cain.Yes Neanderthal were brutes you wouldn't have wanted to shake hands with one and yet nothing in this means they didn't bury their dead,had art and language,I agree they did.The question is why they died out and yet man lived I say Noah's flood,they perished in the flood yet man was safe on the ark. Also the population of the earth today 7 billion lines up with this,evolution was wrong ands were ignoring reproduction for 1 million years in order to believe man evolved into being about 1 million years ago, 1 million years should produce trillions time trillions times trillions times trillions of humans and mountains of bones, yet the new science coming out places man to a much more recent beginning,evolutionists were wrong,creationists were right about the population of 7 billion humans today. I am not adding or taking away from God's word.
Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:03 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2772Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Greetings,

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Inferno wrote:Problems with gap creationism:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, which apparently includes stars, yet there was no light? And if it does not include stars, how were they formed after the earth?

First of many.

Old earth gap creationism is complete horseshit.


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.You are correct this includes the stars,planets but even life that was in the former world there was a gap of time between verse 1 and verse 2 Which says "And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So in verse 1 we have the stars shining but in verse 2 we don't,something happened between verse 1 and 2 God had made the stars go out which would've produced water - science which would have flooded the universe with water and the earth which explains why the earth was flooded but also there is water in outerspace too way more than what is on the earth it is frozen though.God turned the stars back on in day 4 when he was creating this world.Notice in verse 2 The earth is already there fully formed but with no life and there is water on it too,it is flooded and frozen though. God did not create the earth without form and void and then decorate it in the creation process like young earthers think no God created the earth to be inhabited from the very beginning and later the earth became without form and void and all life died and perished which the fossils verify and eventually God created this world with different kinds of life the fossils testify to this also.

You're doing the same thing as before, abelcainsbrother - adding all sorts of things that aren't there to what the bible actually says.

You realise that your gap theory means that death existed before Adam - that fossils existed in the Earth before Adam was created? This is in contradiction to what the bible appears to indicate - that death only came into existence through the "sin" of Adam and Eve.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:16 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2772Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Greetings,

abelcainsbrother wrote:Dragan Glas

Really?

This is what you've been doing throughout your misrepresentation of what the bible says and means.

An example being your claim from the other thread that Cain was a Neanderthal based on the "mark" being the brow-ridge of the Neaderthal skull - and that, therefore, Cain's descendants were all Neanderthals who died out due to "the flood".

Are you really so incognisant of what you are doing?

I have not changed anything from in the other thread I do believe Neanderthals died out in noah's flood but why do you deny it has baffled secular scientists why Neanderthal died out yet man lived? Even your evolution buddies know certain scientists were baffled yet they don't consider the bible and Noah's flood.Science is not out to prove the bible true it is up to us Christians to explain it.

I am not talking about your changing what you say between threads!

I'm saying that you're changing what the bible says - something which you claim is wrong: "we're not supposed to add or take away from God's word".

That is what you're doing by claiming that the "mark" is the brow-ridge of Neanderthals, that God changed Cain into a Neanderthal, that Cain's descendants were Neanderthals and that they died out in "the Flood".

The bible doesn't say any of that - you're "adding" to God's word.

Yet you seem completely oblivious of what you're doing.

abelcainsbrother wrote:
So now you accept that Neanderthals and Man lived at the same time? Pre-Adam?

And please note that Neanderthals weren't the brutes you claimed them to be: they looked after their sick, buried their dead, had art and language.

You "cringe as a Christian about adding or taking away from the bible" when someone else does this - yet seem quite oblivious to your own transgressions.

Need I remind you of "the mote and the beam"?

Again I have not changed anything from what I said in the other thread yes I believe Neanderthal and man lived at the same time and yes I do believe Neanderthals were the descendents of Cain.Yes Neanderthal were brutes you wouldn't have wanted to shake hands with one and yet nothing in this means they didn't bury their dead,had art and language,I agree they did.The question is why they died out and yet man lived I say Noah's flood,they perished in the flood yet man was safe on the ark. Also the population of the earth today 7 billion lines up with this,evolution was wrong ands were ignoring reproduction for 1 million years in order to believe man evolved into being about 1 million years ago, 1 million years should produce trillions time trillions times trillions times trillions of humans and mountains of bones, yet the new science coming out places man to a much more recent beginning,evolutionists were wrong,creationists were right about the population of 7 billion humans today. I am not adding or taking away from God's word.

Yes, you are.

The bible doesn't mention what the "mark" was or that God changed Cain into a Neanderthal - that's what you're saying. Therefore you are "adding" to God's word.

And - again - you act as if I'm saying you changed what you said between threads - no I'm not, I'm referring to your changing what the bible says.

As for what you're saying that the population size would have been "trillions times trillions times trillions times trillions of humans and mountains of bones" if evolution was true ... what are you talking about?

As regards the flood and the ark: how does "the population of the Earth today 7 billion lines up with this. Evolution was wrong..." make sense ??

The flood allegedly occurred a few thousand years ago, where a family of eight survived - how could we now have 7 billion people in that time ??

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:37 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

2nd Peter 3:5-7 "For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water.Whereby the WORLD that then WAS,being overflowed with water PERISHED.But the heavens and earth which are NOW by the same word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

We can see Peter tells us there was a gap of time between the former world that perished and this world we now live in.This is why in Genesis 1:2 the earth is flooded and frozen
but also the heavens were effected as well Noah's flood only effected the earth and the atmosphere of the earth but not the heavens like this flood did.The heavens were flooded when God caused the stars to go out,notice the earth is protruding out of the waters too"and the earth standing out of the water,and in the water" like a floating bobber in the water but frozen also.later we see God dividing these waters in Genesis 1 and we have evidence with water in outerspace frozen.We don't see this in Noah's flood and God spared this world and kept it going in Noah's flood so that Jesus could be born like he said would happen so there was a gap between the former world and this world that is overlooked.
Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:20 pm
ldmitrukUser avatarPosts: 218Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:47 pmLocation: Edmonton, Alberta Gender: Cake

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

abelcainsbrother wrote:2nd Peter 3:5-7 "For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water.Whereby the WORLD that then WAS,being overflowed with water PERISHED.But the heavens and earth which are NOW by the same word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

We can see Peter tells us there was a gap of time between the former world that perished and this world we now live in.This is why in Genesis 1:2 the earth is flooded and frozen
but also the heavens were effected as well Noah's flood only effected the earth and the atmosphere of the earth but not the heavens like this flood did.The heavens were flooded when God caused the stars to go out,notice the earth is protruding out of the waters too"and the earth standing out of the water,and in the water" like a floating bobber in the water but frozen also.later we see God dividing these waters in Genesis 1 and we have evidence with water in outerspace frozen.We don't see this in Noah's flood and God spared this world and kept it going in Noah's flood so that Jesus could be born like he said would happen so there was a gap between the former world and this world that is overlooked.


So you're implying outer space filled with water and the earth was floating around until it got frozen in place? I've read some pretty ridiculous crap proposed by creationists but you have really out done even some of the crazier ones who have proposed things such as water ejected from earth, freezing and impacting the moon creating the craters and dinosaurs laying eggs on the run as they try to escape the flood god created at the time of Noah.

Image

I think what you're saying violates numerous laws of physics, common sense and a bunch of other stuff. What kind of meds are you not taking :lol:
Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:39 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Jeremiah 4:23-28 More biblical evidence "I beheld the earth,and lo,it WAS WITHOUT FORM AND VOID,(like in Genesis 1:2);and the heavens,and they had no light.I beheld the mountains moved back and forth,and the hills moved lightly.I beheld,and,lo,there was no man(the primates),and all the birds of heaven were fled.I beheld,and,lo fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities therof were broken down at the presence of the Lord,and by his fierce anger.For thus hath the Lord said,the Whole land shall be desolate(fossils prove this);yet will I not make a full end.For this shall the earth mourn,and the heavens above be black:because I havespoken it,I have purposed it,and will not repent,neither will I turn back from it."

So again like above and in Genesis 1:2 we see the heavens are black without star light until the fourth day when God turns them back on,also the stars going out would produce water in the heavens for a flooded heaven and earth like stated above.Also the fossils confirm a former world existed like the bible reveals to us.You can put God's word to the test and when properly understood the evidence will verify it as the fossils and evidence of an old earth,etc do.We also have the remains of ancient cities and structures that exist aroud the earth,some on land and some on the oceab floor, like stone henge,atlantis,macchu pichu,little atlantis off the coast of Japan that scientists ignore and explain as naturally made because history might have to be rewritten,etc.Do your own research and see them because they exist.
Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:58 pm
ldmitrukUser avatarPosts: 218Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:47 pmLocation: Edmonton, Alberta Gender: Cake

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

abelcainsbrother wrote:Jeremiah 4:23-28 More biblical evidence "I beheld the earth,and lo,it WAS WITHOUT FORM AND VOID,(like in Genesis 1:2);and the heavens,and they had no light.I beheld the mountains moved back and forth,and the hills moved lightly.I beheld,and,lo,there was no man(the primates),and all the birds of heaven were fled.I beheld,and,lo fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities therof were broken down at the presence of the Lord,and by his fierce anger.For thus hath the Lord said,the Whole land shall be desolate(fossils prove this);yet will I not make a full end.For this shall the earth mourn,and the heavens above be black:because I havespoken it,I have purposed it,and will not repent,neither will I turn back from it."

So again like above and in Genesis 1:2 we see the heavens are black without star light until the fourth day when God turns them back on,also the stars going out would produce water in the heavens for a flooded heaven and earth like stated above.Also the fossils confirm a former world existed like the bible reveals to us.You can put God's word to the test and when properly understood the evidence will verify it as the fossils and evidence of an old earth,etc do.We also have the remains of ancient cities and structures that exist aroud the earth,some on land and some on the oceab floor, like stone henge,atlantis,macchu pichu,little atlantis off the coast of Japan that scientists ignore and explain as naturally made because history might have to be rewritten,etc.Do your own research and see them because they exist.


Stars going out produces water??? Now I did a quick search and found some articles about stars producing water due to a variety of causes but no mention of a star reaching the end of it's life cycle resulting in tonnes of liquid water require to fill the heavens. Once again you're contorting science to fit what you see as being revealed by the bible.
Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:28 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2772Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Greetings,

As I said before, when you're asked searching questions to which you have no answer, you revert to repeating the same tired, old misrepresentations of what the bible says.

abelcainsbrother wrote:2nd Peter 3:5-7 "For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water.Whereby the WORLD that then WAS,being overflowed with water PERISHED.But the heavens and earth which are NOW by the same word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

We can see Peter tells us there was a gap of time between the former world that perished and this world we now live in.This is why in Genesis 1:2 the earth is flooded and frozen
but also the heavens were effected as well Noah's flood only effected the earth and the atmosphere of the earth but not the heavens like this flood did.The heavens were flooded when God caused the stars to go out,notice the earth is protruding out of the waters too"and the earth standing out of the water,and in the water" like a floating bobber in the water but frozen also.later we see God dividing these waters in Genesis 1 and we have evidence with water in outerspace frozen.We don't see this in Noah's flood and God spared this world and kept it going in Noah's flood so that Jesus could be born like he said would happen so there was a gap between the former world and this world that is overlooked.

As I've explained elsewhere, the above passage refers to the pre-flood and post-flood "worlds":

a) the flat Earth belief, which held that the pre-flood Earth was surrounded ("standing out of the water and in the water") and then flooded ("Whereby the world that then was being overflowed with water perished");

b) the post-flood Earth will not be flooded again but will be destroyed by fire, "But the heavens and Earth which are now by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men."

That is the meaning of the passage you massacre and misrepresent - and yet you say it's wrong to add or take away anything from God's word...

There is no "frozen" in the passage - the heavens were not "flooded" - God did not "cause the stars to go out" - and any scientific evidence of "water in outer-space frozen" has absolutely nothing to do with or is evidence/proof for the bible.

You're adding all of this into the bible and its meaning - in clear contradiction to what you said about doing this being "wrong".

abelcainsbrother wrote:Jeremiah 4:23-28 More biblical evidence "I beheld the earth,and lo,it WAS WITHOUT FORM AND VOID,(like in Genesis 1:2);and the heavens,and they had no light.I beheld the mountains moved back and forth,and the hills moved lightly.I beheld,and,lo,there was no man(the primates),and all the birds of heaven were fled.I beheld,and,lo fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities therof were broken down at the presence of the Lord,and by his fierce anger.For thus hath the Lord said,the Whole land shall be desolate(fossils prove this);yet will I not make a full end.For this shall the earth mourn,and the heavens above be black:because I havespoken it,I have purposed it,and will not repent,neither will I turn back from it."

So again like above and in Genesis 1:2 we see the heavens are black without star light until the fourth day when God turns them back on,also the stars going out would produce water in the heavens for a flooded heaven and earth like stated above.Also the fossils confirm a former world existed like the bible reveals to us.You can put God's word to the test and when properly understood the evidence will verify it as the fossils and evidence of an old earth,etc do.We also have the remains of ancient cities and structures that exist aroud the earth,some on land and some on the oceab floor, like stone henge,atlantis,macchu pichu,little atlantis off the coast of Japan that scientists ignore and explain as naturally made because history might have to be rewritten,etc.Do your own research and see them because they exist.

Again, typical of you, you completely misrepresent what this passage means by taking it out of context - and then try to shoe-horn scientific evidence into your misrepresentation to back it up.

I already explained this in another topic - anyone should recognise it from the last verses, 27-31.

The whole Book of Jeremiah is a conversation between him and God about Israel's "unfaithfulness" and a warning that if Israel doesn't "return to the Lord", it will be destroyed by invaders.

Jeremiah 4 specifically refers to the destruction of Israel by invaders - it is not referring to any destruction of the world!

Jeremiah 4 wrote:If you, Israel, will return,
then return to me,”
declares the Lord.
“If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
and no longer go astray,
2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
you swear, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’
then the nations will invoke blessings by him
and in him they will boast.”

3 This is what the Lord says to the people of Judah and to Jerusalem:

“Break up your unplowed ground
and do not sow among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord,
circumcise your hearts,
you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire
because of the evil you have done—
burn with no one to quench it.
Disaster From the North

5 “Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:
‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’
Cry aloud and say:
‘Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities!’
6 Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction.”

7 A lion has come out of his lair;
a destroyer of nations has set out.
He has left his place
to lay waste your land.
Your towns will lie in ruins
without inhabitant.
8 So put on sackcloth,
lament and wail,
for the fierce anger of the Lord
has not turned away from us.

9 “In that day,” declares the Lord,
“the king and the officials will lose heart,
the priests will be horrified,
and the prophets will be appalled.”

10 Then I said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!”

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.”

13 Look! He advances like the clouds,
his chariots come like a whirlwind,
his horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us! We are ruined!
14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
15 A voice is announcing from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.
16 “Tell this to the nations,
proclaim concerning Jerusalem:
‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land,
raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.
17 They surround her like men guarding a field,
because she has rebelled against me,’”
declares the Lord.
18 “Your own conduct and actions
have brought this on you.
This is your punishment.
How bitter it is!
How it pierces to the heart!”

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish!
I writhe in pain.
Oh, the agony of my heart!
My heart pounds within me,
I cannot keep silent.
For I have heard the sound of the trumpet;
I have heard the battle cry.
20 Disaster follows disaster;
the whole land lies in ruins.
In an instant my tents are destroyed,
my shelter in a moment.
21 How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 “My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.”

23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.

27 This is what the Lord says:

“The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.”

29 At the sound of horsemen and archers
every town takes to flight.
Some go into the thickets;
some climb up among the rocks.
All the towns are deserted;
no one lives in them.

30 What are you doing, you devastated one?
Why dress yourself in scarlet
and put on jewels of gold?
Why highlight your eyes with makeup?
You adorn yourself in vain.
Your lovers despise you;
they want to kill you.

31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child—
the cry of Daughter Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
“Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers.”

Now, kindly stop evading direct questions through repeating your misrepresentations of the bible and answer them.

Your gap theory states:

1) A pre-Adam "world" existed and was destroyed resulting in the death of all dinosaurs and other animal and plant life;

2) God "restored" the world and created Adam and Eve;

3) God turned Cain into a Neanderthal, who married Awan (his human sister), and their descendants were Neanderthals who were all killed due to "the Flood";

4) Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives - eight humans - were the only survivors of the Flood;

The questions I've already asked are:

1) If death only came into being due to Adam's "original sin" - how could the pre-Adamite world's life-forms all die out? This contradicts the traditional interpretation of the bible.

Science explains this - your gap theory can't: Science 1, Gap Theory 0.

2) If the Neanderthals all died out due to "the Flood", how do modern humans have Neanderthal DNA in our genome?

Science explains this - your gap theory can't: Science 2, Gap Theory 0.

3) If only eight - that's 8 - humans survived "the Flood", how do you get your population of 7 billion in time since Noah's Ark?

Science can explain today's population - your gap theory can't: Science 3, Gap Theory 0.

4) Where do Denisovans fit in with your gap theory? How do humans have Denisovan DNA in our genome?

Science can explain this - your gap theory can't: Science 4, Gap Theory 0.

5) What about Homo Floresiensis? How did they come about?

Science can explain this - your gap theory can't: Science 5, Gap Theory 0.

There'll be more for you to answer later.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:55 pm
MugnutsBloggerUser avatarPosts: 383Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

ACB, this is an explanation of why your trillions and trillions is just plain silly. It is mocked and rightly so.

"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne
Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:36 am
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Matthew 10:16 "Behold,I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:be ye therefore wise as a serpent and harmless as doves."

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake:but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are ye,when men shall revile you,and persecute you,and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my names sake.Rejoice,and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven:for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:55 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

Mugnuts wrote:ACB, this is an explanation of why your trillions and trillions is just plain silly. It is mocked and rightly so.




This does not make anything I've said not credible from a biblical and scientific perspective.
Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:56 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

ldmitruk wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Jeremiah 4:23-28 More biblical evidence "I beheld the earth,and lo,it WAS WITHOUT FORM AND VOID,(like in Genesis 1:2);and the heavens,and they had no light.I beheld the mountains moved back and forth,and the hills moved lightly.I beheld,and,lo,there was no man(the primates),and all the birds of heaven were fled.I beheld,and,lo fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities therof were broken down at the presence of the Lord,and by his fierce anger.For thus hath the Lord said,the Whole land shall be desolate(fossils prove this);yet will I not make a full end.For this shall the earth mourn,and the heavens above be black:because I havespoken it,I have purposed it,and will not repent,neither will I turn back from it."

So again like above and in Genesis 1:2 we see the heavens are black without star light until the fourth day when God turns them back on,also the stars going out would produce water in the heavens for a flooded heaven and earth like stated above.Also the fossils confirm a former world existed like the bible reveals to us.You can put God's word to the test and when properly understood the evidence will verify it as the fossils and evidence of an old earth,etc do.We also have the remains of ancient cities and structures that exist aroud the earth,some on land and some on the oceab floor, like stone henge,atlantis,macchu pichu,little atlantis off the coast of Japan that scientists ignore and explain as naturally made because history might have to be rewritten,etc.Do your own research and see them because they exist.


Stars going out produces water??? Now I did a quick search and found some articles about stars producing water due to a variety of causes but no mention of a star reaching the end of it's life cycle resulting in tonnes of liquid water require to fill the heavens. Once again you're contorting science to fit what you see as being revealed by the bible.



I do not make up stuff what I've said is about stars going out producing water is true and we have water in outerspace.Where did them comets come from? The stars that were shut off by God when the former world perished and the stars were turned back on in day 4 of the creation of this world like I said stars going out would produce water.H2O and the heavens would be flooded with water like is described in 2nd Peter 3:5-7 with the heavens and earth flooded with water later in Genesis 1 God divides these waters which is why there is water in outerspace way more than what is on the earth,but also on the earth and science detects this flood too ealy in the history of the earth before the continents rose up.Scientists think comets brought the water to the earth and then the continents rose up which we see in Genesis 1:8-10 where God says "let the dry land appear" Sciwnce says comets brought this water, I say when God shut off the stars the water was produced to flood the universe and earth with water.I am using the bible and science to reach a credible scientific biblical hypothesis.
Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:59 pm
MugnutsBloggerUser avatarPosts: 383Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

abelcainsbrother wrote:
This does not make anything I've said not credible from a biblical and scientific perspective.


:shock: Are you f***ing kidding me?

And in addition to your

I am using the bible and science to reach a credible scientific biblical hypothesis.



As I read your posts, in their dull cramped muddle, they can't be serious.

Humour me and write a short paragraph explaining your travel experience coming home from work. I will explain the reasoning behind this seemingly odd question afterwards.
"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne
Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:41 pm
abelcainsbrotherBannedUser avatarPosts: 774Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:33 am Gender: Male

Post Re: "Let us reason amongst the brethren"

As I've explained elsewhere, the above passage refers to the pre-flood and post-flood "worlds":

a) the flat Earth belief, which held that the pre-flood Earth was surrounded ("standing out of the water and in the water") and then flooded ("Whereby the world that then was being overflowed with water perished");

b) the post-flood Earth will not be flooded again but will be destroyed by fire, "But the heavens and Earth which are now by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men."

That is the meaning of the passage you massacre and misrepresent - and yet you say it's wrong to add or take away anything from God's word...

There is no "frozen" in the passage - the heavens were not "flooded" - God did not "cause the stars to go out" - and any scientific evidence of "water in outer-space frozen" has absolutely nothing to do with or is evidence/proof for the bible.

You're adding all of this into the bible and its meaning - in clear contradiction to what you said about doing this being "wrong".


The bible does not teach the earth is flat.Even if I ignored the biblical passages that you interpret to say the earth is flat which really means east,north,west,south but even if I ignore them passages I can know the earth is round by what Jesus teaches when he reveals that in one passage he comes and it is night time and yet in the nect he comes and it is day time.It will be both day time and night time for the world when Jesus comes.So the flat earth stuff is bogus.

Yes the post flood earth will be destroyed by fire and not water,this has not happened since Adam and Eve were here and so the earth and this world remain because of Noah.God kept this world going so you cannot say this world perished,it didn't,the former world did that was full of life as the fossils,etc show us.Evolutionists are looking at this evidence from a biased evolution perspective and making it fit into evolution overlooking the gap of time between the former world and this world.

Tell me what would happen if the heavens went dark,the sun was shut off,the earth would freeze When we read Genesis 1:2 we can see darkness is on the face of the deep.We know this means the earth is frozen but also flooded.Then we read Jeremiah to understand what caused the former world to perish and why it froze - the heavens the heavens became black.
The Gap theory was being preached in the church long before Darwin wrote his books so I am not changing the meaning and they read it and led many people to Christ with the King James version bible.


Again, typical of you, you completely misrepresent what this passage means by taking it out of context - and then try to shoe-horn scientific evidence into your misrepresentation to back it up.

I already explained this in another topic - anyone should recognise it from the last verses, 27-31.

The whole Book of Jeremiah is a conversation between him and God about Israel's "unfaithfulness" and a warning that if Israel doesn't "return to the Lord", it will be destroyed by invaders.

Jeremiah 4 specifically refers to the destruction of Israel by invaders - it is not referring to any destruction of the world!


Jeremiah is looking back and your interpretation doesn't hold water because in a war people survive but we can see no life survived this the fruitful place became a wilderness
It is a look back because this has not happened since Adam and Eve and isn't going to happen in the future a new heaven and new earth will be created but before this people are still alive when Jesus returns before the heavens and earth are recreated again. There is also a gap in the ages as well in biblical teaching like the age of grace that has been going on for 2000 years until Jesus returns so gaps are apart of scripture.There are time lines which show gaps of time between biblical ages.Also God tells Adam and Eve to replenish the earth and tells Noah this too,so again why would God tell Adam and Eve to replenish the earth? Because of the life that was in the former world that perished and went extinct.I have more verses that back up the Gap theory I'm just using a few right now.How about?Genesis 2:4"These are the generations of the heavens and earth when they were created,in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."


Now, kindly stop evading direct questions through repeating your misrepresentations of the bible and answer them.

Your gap theory states:


1) A pre-Adam "world" existed and was destroyed resulting in the death of all dinosaurs and other animal and plant life;


Yes all life in the former world perished this would include the primates too.

2) God "restored" the world and created Adam and Eve;


Yes God restored the earth that was in a damaged without form and void,flooded and frozen state in Genesis 1:2,there is no light yet but the heaven,earth,water were already there before God creates light to start the thawing process.Don't overlook "Snow ball earth" too.

3) God turned Cain into a Neanderthal, who married Awan (his human sister), and their descendants were Neanderthals who were all killed due to "the Flood";


Yes and placed a mark on Cain which we can see by looking at Neanderthal's skull and the huge brow they had,they were also barrel chested and much stronger than man.God did this because there were people who wanted to avenge Abel's life so God made Cain into a brute,man would've been fearful of Neanserthals because of how strong and how much of a brute they were even a secular scientist in my research said something very similar to this while studying Neanderthals.I don't necessarily agree that Cain's wife was human at this point,but yes Neanderthals died out in Noah's flood.Again it baffled secular scientists whythey died out and yet man lived,don't deny this.They are not considering the bible when observing Neanderthals but looking at everything from an evolution perspective which clouds their view of much of the evidence.
4) Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives - eight humans - were the only survivors of the Flood;


Yes and populated the earth into the 7 billion humans we have on this earth today.Evolutionists on the other hand previously thought and taught that man evolved about 1 million years ago but the new sciene that came out moved man to a much more recent beginning.They were ignoring reproduction for 1 million years and having to cram only 7 billion humans into 1 million years but the new science came out and changed everything.Creationists were still closer than evolutionists werefor man having a much more recent beginning.So science can mean well and be wrong and so can Christian with the young earth stuff.We all can be wrong therefore it is wiser to trust God over man.
The questions I've already asked are:

1) If death only came into being due to Adam's "original sin" - how could the pre-Adamite world's life-forms all die out? This contradicts the traditional interpretation of the bible.

Science explains this - your gap theory can't: Science 1, Gap Theory 0.


What happened in the former world had no bearing on this world.God wiped the slate clean and started again.Death did not come until they sinned in this world.The Gsp theory in noway effects salvation of this world by Jesus,God spared this world and kept it going in noah's flood which produced the 7 billion humans today.It was evolutionists that ignored reproduction for amost 1 million years having to cram only 7 billion humans into 1 million years much like young earthers do cramming everything into Noah's flood.They were still more right than evolutionists were until the new science came out that placed man to a much more recent beginning.But it shows both sides can be wrong.

2) If the Neanderthals all died out due to "the Flood", how do modern humans have Neanderthal DNA in our genome?

Science explains this - your gap theory can't: Science 2, Gap Theory 0.


Because Neanderthal were humans but God reprogrammed the DNA to produce Neanderthal instead.Some human DNA would remain.

3) If only eight - that's 8 - humans survived "the Flood", how do you get your population of 7 billion in time since Noah's Ark?

Science can explain today's population - your gap theory can't: Science 3, Gap Theory 0.

The new science thast came out placed man to a much muh more recent past than evolutionists believed for years and taught as truth,we no longer have to ignore reproduction for 1 million years.

4) Where do Denisovans fit in with your gap theory? How do humans have Denisovan DNA in our genome?

Science can explain this - your gap theory can't: Science 4, Gap Theory 0.


Don't know yet and I don't make up stuff.
5) What about Homo Floresiensis? How did they come about?

Science can explain this - your gap theory can't: Science 5, Gap Theory 0.

Primates were in the former world and perished therefore they could not have evolved into man.

There'll be more for you to answer later.

It is like casting pearls before swine with you.
Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:52 pm
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