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Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:53 pm
by Collecemall
I can understand why they were banned. I also understand why those two in particular would reach that level of frustration. They spend sometimes hours on a post and some moron ignores it with a seven second reply that doesn't address anything they said or worse distorts it. I think there need to be rules but the rules are rather useless if there's nobody here posting. You've got a handful of people that are the primary contributors and Rum is among those. Perhaps some other resolution can be reached other than a lifetime ban?

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:13 am
by Dustnite
I think it's kind of sad that they let an obvious troll like Bernie get under their skin when he's obviously not here to engage in honest discussion. He's a proven liar from these own boards and communicating to him is a waste of time.

I think the real question is what MGK touched on. These boards have literally become a dumping ground for Aron's random creationists he finds so we can all dogpile on the idiocy. I don't really disagree with the bans, although Rumraket's was kind of surprising. The funny part is Bernie is probably laughing all the way to bank having helped in causing the bans and now will probably stick around forever because we keep feeding the troll.

I'd say keep the bans and let's just put Bernie on the ignore list. No one is going to get through the creationist's mind and he is obviously getting his jollies off on all this crap. Just let it go.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:23 am
by tuxbox
Bernhard maybe a troll. I do not really know. The AronRa thread is 93 pages of bullshit in my opinion and I do not pay much attention to it. That said, if we did not have the Creationist showing up. then this forum would die off pretty quickly. I do not see new threads being posted by the regular members that allow us to engage in honest debate. As far as the bans are concerned, well, I think Rum should be given a second chance. Most of his posts were civil and informative. I'm all for the idea of temporary suspension for the first offense but if the bad behavior continues after the suspension ends, then a permanent ban is warranted. Just my opinion.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:53 am
by Visaki
Prolescum wrote:Well I can see the consensus is against me here, so I'll talk with the rest of the staff and rumraket and report back regarding the main topic.

With regards to a quorum on permabans, we'd need to have a good think about how to apply it fairly and whether we can maintain it adequately given the current and future staff and contributors levels. I'm not against the idea in principle.

Yeah, you suck :D

I agree with most people here it seems. Both Hacky and Rummy were bad, insulting, were warned multiple times before the ban. I can see a reason for a ban, even a longer one like a month or two, but permanent bans... well that's a bit over the top. The main problem I have is that I've learned quite a lot from both of them and I will know less if they don't post here. Not an easy job being a admin/mod; whatever you do someone will vocally disagree with you.

So yes, permanent bans for people who threathen, troll, spam, plagiarize, multinick or do other similar things. If you are insulting, off trailing or similary slightly less disruptive slap a month or two of ban, not just a week. If the person truly wants to discuss things here he will come back after that time with better conduct and if he does and doesn't learn then yeah, permanent ban is in order if the admins and mods think so even if we will miss their information content.

There is also a different question of what should be done with people who continuously strawman, lie, bedlamize, gallop, skip, jump and press wild flowers instead of take part in the conversation (they usually started), Bernie being a point in case. Personally I don't mind because I get tons of mileage from the answers to people like him, but that's just me.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:05 pm
by Prolescum
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Prolescum wrote:Well I can see the consensus is against me here, so I'll talk with the rest of the staff and rumraket and report back regarding the main topic.

With regards to a quorum on permabans, we'd need to have a good think about how to apply it fairly and whether we can maintain it adequately given the current and future staff and contributors levels. I'm not against the idea in principle.

Nothing personal, Prolescum, we still love you! :mrgreen:


Heh, I didn't take it personally, just stating it as it is. I like flowery language, but I don't really beat around the bush....


Visaki wrote:
Prolescum wrote:Well I can see the consensus is against me here, so I'll talk with the rest of the staff and rumraket and report back regarding the main topic.

With regards to a quorum on permabans, we'd need to have a good think about how to apply it fairly and whether we can maintain it adequately given the current and future staff and contributors levels. I'm not against the idea in principle.

Yeah, you suck


I also blow.

There is also a different question of what should be done with people who continuously strawman, lie, bedlamize, gallop, skip, jump and press wild flowers instead of take part in the conversation (they usually started), Bernie being a point in case. Personally I don't mind because I get tons of mileage from the answers to people like him, but that's just me.


I don't think any of those count unless they are clearly construed as spamming or trolling...

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:15 pm
by Dustnite
Bernie shouldn't be banned, he's a fine example of what happens to your brain on creationism.

Off Topic:

If anything, we should probably have a discussion as a community on getting discussions back to an honest debate instead of constantly driving through creationist drivel. For example, I wouldn't mind seeing the LoR show come back and I would be willing to assist/run a hangouts discussion. I was also thinking about posting my notes from my discussions with a colleague of mine that has extensively studied the Talmud, Canon of Trent, and other messianic text. I enjoy talking to him because he keeps his Jewish faith but also lets me challenge him on the stuff I find.

Although I still think it's important to challenge creationists on their bullshit, I think we need more substance on these boards.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:59 pm
by he_who_is_nobody
Dustnite wrote:If anything, we should probably have a discussion as a community on getting discussions back to an honest debate instead of constantly driving through creationist drivel. For example, I wouldn't mind seeing the LoR show come back and I would be willing to assist/run a hangouts discussion.


It would be awesome to get some new life on his forum. I was hoping to have a new computer at this time to help with the show, but my vehicle decided to give out instead.

Dustnite wrote:I was also thinking about posting my notes from my discussions with a colleague of mine that has extensively studied the Talmud, Canon of Trent, and other messianic text. I enjoy talking to him because he keeps his Jewish faith but also lets me challenge him on the stuff I find.


I would be interested in reading them.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:23 pm
by DepricatedZero
he_who_is_nobody wrote:It would be awesome to get some new life on his forum. I was hoping to have a new computer at this time to help with the show, but my vehicle decided to give out instead.
Maybe I can assist in some way? I'd love to see things come back up

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:06 pm
by he_who_is_nobody
DepricatedZero wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:It would be awesome to get some new life on his forum. I was hoping to have a new computer at this time to help with the show, but my vehicle decided to give out instead.
Maybe I can assist in some way? I'd love to see things come back up


Well, like you said, if you want to host the show, perhaps you, Dragan Glass, and Prolescum (if I am not mistaken also wanted to restart the show) could get together and hammer out an idea of how the show would go. Perhaps some topics about current events (vaccines seem to be big right now) and a mention of what is happening at the forum.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:40 pm
by DepricatedZero
Dropped a post in the Show forum to address that.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:59 am
by Prolescum
I neglected to post in this thread yesterday, but I will be sending a message to Rumraket later today, and the team are currently in discussion about how best to move forward with our banning policies, including the possibility of forming an appropriate member-based decision process. A new thread will eventually be created in this sub-forum for discussing the matter in depth.

Thank you all for your input and your suggestions.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:59 pm
by Visaki
Prolescum wrote:
There is also a different question of what should be done with people who continuously strawman, lie, bedlamize, gallop, skip, jump and press wild flowers instead of take part in the conversation (they usually started), Bernie being a point in case. Personally I don't mind because I get tons of mileage from the answers to people like him, but that's just me.


I don't think any of those count unless they are clearly construed as spamming or trolling...

Point taken, and understood. As I said, moderating is a though and mostly thankless job, so; thanks.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:12 pm
by australopithecus
I'm late to the party, as always (Sue me. Actually please don't, I'm poor), so forgive me for flogging a dead horse;

Rumraket has been unbanned, hooray and all that, hopefully there wont be a repeat. As for Hack though, I get he was a popular contributor, he knew his stuff and the forum will be a sadder place for it. That said, he'd been warned countless fucking times, so that alone would be reason enough for a ban. You can suggest all the forum constitutions, rule changes and so on, but if you post a message that contains the words "please die" to another member, and it isn't directed at either a spider or Nickleback, then don't get shocked if you find yourself unable to post.

There is a line, that behaviour crosses it.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:38 pm
by he_who_is_nobody
australopithecus wrote:There is a line, that behaviour crosses it.


So, being mean to trolls can get you banned. I find that weird and think that the troll should be banned long before a regular member starts wishing death upon them (if there are going to be bans that is).

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:47 pm
by itsdemtitans
Hack was a good contriubutor, and I'm saddened I will not be able to carry on my conversation with him

But I have to agree, telling someone to "please die" is not something I want on this forum either. if this was a one time thing maybe I wouldn't mind too much, but if he's had multiple warnings against this type of behavior, then I feel the ban is justified

However, I do think it's unfair the troll has had multiple warnings and is still here, especially after leaving me a literal list of insults

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:32 am
by he_who_is_nobody
What is the world coming to that you get in trouble for wishing death upon trolls? Much like blasphemy, it is a victimless crime. I would have advocated for the unbanning of hackenslash too if he did not ban himself (by changing is password to a random string of characters).

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:32 pm
by australopithecus
"Please die" isn't being mean, it's being a vindictive prick. Yes, that is a line. Wishing death upon another human being isn't happening on this forum under my watch. I don't care how big or small a troll is, how annoying someone is, it's not happening.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:56 pm
by he_who_is_nobody
Since when did this forum start believing trolls were human and not the subhuman scum the rest of the internet know them to be?

I thought the unspoken rule of this forum (because it has been slow) was trolls were tolerated until things got out of hand, than the troll would be banned, since it is obviously the trolls fault. When did this forum start privileging trolls over members?

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:36 pm
by Prolescum
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Since when did this forum start believing trolls were human and not the subhuman scum the rest of the internet know them to be?


They're not really a collected sub-culture and we treat every case on its own merits. This has always been the case.

I thought the unspoken rule of this forum (because it has been slow) was trolls were tolerated until things got out of hand, than the troll would be banned, since it is obviously the trolls fault.


No, that's wrong. We only ban users as a last resort, almost always for spamming or getting tired of being unable to convince other users of the efficacy of their perspective and just piss about until they provoke once too often; when it is apparent there's no point engaging them further; when their derailments become a serious hindrance.

The reason we have so few rules is that they are meant to foment discussion, they're not punitive. They're re-active, not pro-active, and we still have an incredibly short ban list.

When did this forum start privileging trolls over members?


It doesn't, and anyone who joins is a member and should, at least, receive the courtesy of not being referred to with labels like troll coupled with non-gendered pronouns when doing so is apparently designed to provoke them and our staff into action that suits your own preference.

We have an ignore function, we have a report function, this sub-forum, and we have a team of people ready to respond to any issues one may have with regards to the site or other members.

The site isn't yet, and I don't want it to become, an echo chamber.



Just to address an earlier point, Hackenslash was banned, not because he locked himself out of his account, but because, and he acknowledges this, he can't control his temper when dealing with certain types of people, and he knew his last post was utterly beyond the pale. He was close literally dozens of times over the years, and it was only the quality of his content and the self-recognition of his own flaws that kept his account open.

Re: Unban Rumraket

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:53 pm
by Master_Ghost_Knight
australopithecus wrote:"Please die" isn't being mean, it's being a vindictive prick. Yes, that is a line. Wishing death upon another human being isn't happening on this forum under my watch. I don't care how big or small a troll is, how annoying someone is, it's not happening.

I have to admit, that should grant sufficient grounds to ban someone and keep it that way.
I was previously unaware of this.
And we must not cloud our judgment with our biases lest we be called hypocrites, just because we knew him well it doesn't mean he was beyond reprieve.

Ps. About the "forum constitution comment", it was just a suggestion, and in hindsight not necessarily a practical one.