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A Response to Islamophobia

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A Response to Islamophobia
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Post A Response to Islamophobia

Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:05 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Greetings,

Jerry Coyne posted a comment and linked article on Islam that may be of interest:

Ed Suominen on the frightening tenets of Islam

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:40 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Jerry Coyne posted a comment and linked article on Islam that may be of interest:

Ed Suominen on the frightening tenets of Islam

Kindest regards,

James


Interesting...
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:46 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

We have had this discussion before If you remember, Bill Maher and Sam Harris were call racists by Ben Affleck, for speaking out against Islam.
That being said, if Sam Harris is correct, there are around 320 million Muslims in this world who are bad apples. Of the 320 million, there are many of them who are willing to kill in the name of Islam. So, I have no problem in calling out the evilness of Islam. However, that automatically makes me an Islamophobe in the eyes of the Left in my country. I also have no problem calling out the evilness of Christianity, however, that is fair game in my country in the eyes of the Left. The double standard makes me sick. In San Bernardino, a neighbor of the terrorists saw suspicious activity, but did not call anyone for fear of being called a racist. This pussyfooting around Islam, so not to hurt or offend anyone, is ridiculous.

Just my opinion on the matter.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:20 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2950Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

My main point is not that Islam doesn't have its dangerous sects (I mentioned that in the article) my point is that this hatred and suspicion of all Muslims needs end. As I pointed out innocent people are being targeted in attacks just for being Muslim or Sikh in some cases. I even demonstrated that a lot of Muslims worldwide denounce violence contra what a lot of people say.

I never once said that this minority of Muslims was not dangerous and should not be dealt with (I'm curious as to where Harris gets 320 million, I have no reason to accept his assertion as fact). My point is that innocent Muslims are now subject to abuse in the streets by bigoted morons and this needs to end. As does the idea that we should treat them differently under the law which is precisely what Harris advocates (in stating we should profile for Muslims at airports).

I will read the linked article soon, but that is my pre-breakfast response.

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Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:25 am
SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

tuxbox wrote:We have had this discussion before If you remember, Bill Maher and Sam Harris were call racists by Ben Affleck, for speaking out against Islam.
That being said, if Sam Harris is correct, there are around 320 million Muslims in this world who are bad apples. Of the 320 million, there are many of them who are willing to kill in the name of Islam. So, I have no problem in calling out the evilness of Islam. However, that automatically makes me an Islamophobe in the eyes of the Left in my country. I also have no problem calling out the evilness of Christianity, however, that is fair game in my country in the eyes of the Left. The double standard makes me sick.

This "double standard" is largely imaginary. No one on the left claims that Christianity inherently leads to shooting up abortion clinics or that people who favour doing so are the only real Christians, which is essentially what Sam Harris says about Islam and jihadism.

And Harris seems to have an extremely poor understanding of how probability works and yet draws sweeping conclusions based on it.

tuxbox wrote:In San Bernardino, a neighbor of the terrorists saw suspicious activity, but did not call anyone for fear of being called a racist.

Citation needed. This sounds like bullshit to me.
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:10 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2950Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

tuxbox wrote:We have had this discussion before If you remember, Bill Maher and Sam Harris were call racists by Ben Affleck, for speaking out against Islam.
That being said, if Sam Harris is correct, there are around 320 million Muslims in this world who are bad apples. Of the 320 million, there are many of them who are willing to kill in the name of Islam. So, I have no problem in calling out the evilness of Islam. However, that automatically makes me an Islamophobe in the eyes of the Left in my country. I also have no problem calling out the evilness of Christianity, however, that is fair game in my country in the eyes of the Left. The double standard makes me sick. In San Bernardino, a neighbor of the terrorists saw suspicious activity, but did not call anyone for fear of being called a racist. This pussyfooting around Islam, so not to hurt or offend anyone, is ridiculous.

Just my opinion on the matter.


Did you even read the post I made though? I cited numerous examples of Muslims calling out terrorists and rallying against violence in the name of Islam. How can you go on to make broad statements like the "evilness of Islam"? It's just simply unfounded, fearful hyperbole.

I admitted in my article that Islam has some dangerous sects such as that Salafis, who are ultra conservative and prone to violence. But that cannot be said for all Islam. It's not a case of pussyfooting around anything, its a case of being reasonable with regards to the fact that the majority of Muslims in the world do not want to kill you. Thus avoiding sweeping generalizations like the one you just made.

When you say "evilness of Islam" do you really mean all of Islam? If not perhaps you should be more clear in your statements.
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:34 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2950Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Jerry Coyne posted a comment and linked article on Islam that may be of interest:

Ed Suominen on the frightening tenets of Islam

Kindest regards,

James


I don't see this as largely relevant. Whatever the Qu'ran says and whether it is difficult or not to arrive at a peaceful interpretation of it, it's clear that many have arrived at a peaceful interpretation. How they got there is beside the point, the point is that they are there and they are not all horrendously violent. Thus what the Qu'ran says is beside the point. The Bible is pretty horrible too in places. That doesn't speak for how Christians act as a whole.

As I mentioned there are ultra-conservatives who might take the violent parts more seriously than others, and that is a problem. Not a problem however that requires vilifying and hating all Muslims to the point where people start being violent towards them for no reason other than their being Muslim.
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:48 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Laurens wrote:My main point is not that Islam doesn't have its dangerous sects (I mentioned that in the article) my point is that this hatred and suspicion of all Muslims needs end. As I pointed out innocent people are being targeted in attacks just for being Muslim or Sikh in some cases. I even demonstrated that a lot of Muslims worldwide denounce violence contra what a lot of people say.


I agree that hatred and suspicion needs to end, and it is sad that innocents are being targeted by evil people. I also a agree that Muslims are denouncing terrorist who kill in the name of Islam. I posted an article about that on my FB page.

Laurens wrote:I never once said that this minority of Muslims was not dangerous and should not be dealt with (I'm curious as to where Harris gets 320 million, I have no reason to accept his assertion as fact). My point is that innocent Muslims are now subject to abuse in the streets by bigoted morons and this needs to end. As does the idea that we should treat them differently under the law which is precisely what Harris advocates (in stating we should profile for Muslims at airports).

I will read the linked article soon, but that is my pre-breakfast response.

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There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims and Harris estimates that 20% in some form or another are bad. That is where I got the number or 320 million. This includes the ones who believe in Sharia Law, who do not allow women to drive, make them wear burkas, not allowed to talk to other men without their husbands present, who stone adulterers to death, and who imprison or kill gay people. List goes on and on. I understand that you didn't say the minority of Muslims are not bad, however, a minority in the numbers I have mentioned above, is unsettling to say the very least.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:59 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Laurens wrote:
Did you even read the post I made though? I cited numerous examples of Muslims calling out terrorists and rallying against violence in the name of Islam. How can you go on to make broad statements like the "evilness of Islam"? It's just simply unfounded, fearful hyperbole.

I admitted in my article that Islam has some dangerous sects such as that Salafis, who are ultra conservative and prone to violence. But that cannot be said for all Islam. It's not a case of pussyfooting around anything, its a case of being reasonable with regards to the fact that the majority of Muslims in the world do not want to kill you. Thus avoiding sweeping generalizations like the one you just made.

When you say "evilness of Islam" do you really mean all of Islam? If not perhaps you should be more clear in your statements.


I did read your post and I agree with it, and do not doubt innocents are being targeted just because they are Muslims. That is wrong on so many levels and it is evil. I also agree that the majority of Muslims do not want to kill me or anyone else.

How am I making sweeping generalizations?

I believe all revealed religions are evil, not just Islam, and when I say evil, I mean they cause harm to others in some way or another.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:12 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2950Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

tuxbox wrote:I agree that hatred and suspicion needs to end, and it is sad that innocents are being targeted by evil people. I also a agree that Muslims are denouncing terrorist who kill in the name of Islam. I posted an article about that on my FB page.

There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims and Harris estimates that 20% in some form or another are bad. That is where I got the number or 320 million. This includes the ones who believe in Sharia Law, who do not allow women to drive, make them wear burkas, not allowed to talk to other men without their husbands present, who stone adulterers to death, and who imprison or kill gay people. List goes on and on. I understand that you didn't say the minority of Muslims are not bad, however, a minority in the numbers I have mentioned above, is unsettling to say the very least.


How does he justify that estimate? I could equally just pull 0.004% out of my arse and say that only 64 thousand extremists out there. Without knowing how he gets that figure its as good as useless to me.

It is unsettling that religious extremists are out there. The Paris attacks were horrendous and I hope we can move towards a world where that does not happen. The correct response however is not a campaign of dehumanization and vilification of all Muslims. For a start that is a contributing factor towards radicalization.
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:18 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2950Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

tuxbox wrote:
I did read your post and I agree with it, and do not doubt innocents are being targeted just because they are Muslims. That is wrong on so many levels and it is evil. I also agree that the majority of Muslims do not want to kill me or anyone else.

How am I making sweeping generalizations?

I believe all revealed religions are evil, not just Islam, and when I say evil, I mean they cause harm to others in some way or another.


I should have been clearer perhaps. You appeared to be making a sweeping generalization. Which is why I asked the question to clarify.

If you put it in those terms initially I might have objected to it less, this is why it's important to be clear in this minefield of a discussion.
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:20 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

SpecialFrog wrote:This "double standard" is largely imaginary. No one on the left claims that Christianity inherently leads to shooting up abortion clinics or that people who favour doing so are the only real Christians, which is essentially what Sam Harris says about Islam and jihadism..


That is not the double standard I am referring to. I am talking about people, like the ones on The View and other TV programs who make fun or Christians, yet they go out of their way not to offend Muslims. Here is another example of disrespecting Christians. There are also the ones who make jokes about Catholic Priests for being pedophiles when the majority are not.


SpecialFrog wrote:And Harris seems to have an extremely poor understanding of how probability works and yet draws sweeping conclusions based on it.

tuxbox wrote:In San Bernardino, a neighbor of the terrorists saw suspicious activity, but did not call anyone for fear of being called a racist.

Citation needed. This sounds like bullshit to me.



Here is your citation. A man who has been working in the area said he noticed a half-dozen Middle Eastern men in the area in recent weeks, but decided not to report anything since he did not wish to racially profile those people.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:23 pm
SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

tuxbox wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:This "double standard" is largely imaginary. No one on the left claims that Christianity inherently leads to shooting up abortion clinics or that people who favour doing so are the only real Christians, which is essentially what Sam Harris says about Islam and jihadism..

That is not the double standard I am referring to. I am talking about people, like the ones on The View and other TV programs who make fun or Christians, yet they go out of their way not to offend Muslims. Here is another example of disrespecting Christians. There are also the ones who make jokes about Catholic Priests for being pedophiles when the majority are not.

I have never watched the view so I have no idea what you are talking about. However, there is a difference between criticizing the dominant culture and criticizing a minority one.

The bad parts of Islam should be criticized and regressive practices should not be tolerated just because they are part of a particular religion or culture. However, you can oppose this in a way that doesn't make common cause with bigots.

Look at groups like Ex Muslims of North America if you want to see people effectively fighting both bad Islamic practices and Islamophobia.

tuxbox wrote:Here is your citation. A man who has been working in the area said he noticed a half-dozen Middle Eastern men in the area in recent weeks, but decided not to report anything since he did not wish to racially profile those people.

According to that article, the neighbour didn't see anything suspicious unless you consider Middle-Eastern men in your neighbourhood suspicious. Do you think failing to call the police every time six or more brown people are spotted together is an example of being excessively sensitive about race?
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:24 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

SpecialFrog wrote:I have never watched the view so I have no idea what you are talking about. However, there is a difference between criticizing the dominant culture and criticizing a minority one.


How is that not a double standard? If you willing to mock one religion, you should be able to mock another. Scientologists are a minority and they are also mocked. So please tell me the difference?

SpecialFrog wrote:
The bad parts of Islam should be criticized and regressive practices should not be tolerated just because they are part of a particular religion or culture. However, you can oppose this in a way that doesn't make common cause with bigots.


Agreed!

SpecialFrog wrote:
Look at groups like Ex Muslims of North America if you want to see people effectively fighting both bad Islamic practices and Islamophobia.


Never heard of them. That being said, criticizing Islam does not make one an Islamophobe and that is my point.

SpecialFrog wrote:According to that article, the neighbour didn't see anything suspicious unless you consider Middle-Eastern men in your neighbourhood suspicious. Do you think failing to call the police every time six or more brown people are spotted together is an example of being excessively sensitive about race?


Actually, you make a good point here.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:37 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Greetings,

Laurens wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Jerry Coyne posted a comment and linked article on Islam that may be of interest:

Ed Suominen on the frightening tenets of Islam

Kindest regards,

James


I don't see this as largely relevant. Whatever the Qu'ran says and whether it is difficult or not to arrive at a peaceful interpretation of it, it's clear that many have arrived at a peaceful interpretation. How they got there is beside the point, the point is that they are there and they are not all horrendously violent. Thus what the Qu'ran says is beside the point. The Bible is pretty horrible too in places. That doesn't speak for how Christians act as a whole.

As I mentioned there are ultra-conservatives who might take the violent parts more seriously than others, and that is a problem. Not a problem however that requires vilifying and hating all Muslims to the point where people start being violent towards them for no reason other than their being Muslim.

Agreed, Laurens, I was posting it as a viewpoint on the issue of extremism in Islam and people's reaction to it.

The problem, as I see it, is that whereas all three monotheistic religions have been ameliorated in Europe over many centuries, the recent influx of Muslim refugees are bringing with them a "raw form" of Islam into Europe.

It is this "clash of civilisations" that's exacerbating the situation.

We have the fact that young people of Muslim immigrants brought up in the West are falling between two chairs: on the one hand, they don't identify with their parents' more conservative cultures, whilst - on the other hand - they don't feel that they fully belong in ours. As a result, they become the proverbial "disaffected youth" with the added problem that they fall prey to radicalisation, in a desperate effort to "fit in" and "find acceptance" - to find their own place and purpose in the world.

The main problems are socio-economic, as all too often occurs - Suominen's article notes this point as well.

The knee-jerk reaction to extremism in Islam, and Muslims in general, represents a inability to understand people being willing to ensure that they die whilst taking as many of the "infidel" with them as possible. This is a perfectly understandable reaction, given the circumstances - it renders you unable to tell whether you're safe or not in the presence of those who look Arabic.



In the nineteenth century, faced with young Muslim men running "amok", the British Empire forces - instead of killing them, as they sought in their quest to die as martyrs - captured them, and put them in asylums for the insane. The shame of being treated as if they were insane, rather than inspired (by Allah), resulted in the spate of men running amok coming to a swift end.

The idea that there's only one interpretation of the Qur'an, rather than many, is also a contributing factor. Brown's recent Misquoting Muhammad is a useful book, which clarifies a lot of the common misconceptions about the Qur'an and its singular interpretation.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:02 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:14 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

Greetings,

A recent survey of Americans' views of Muslims and Islam - note the distinction they make between people versus ideology.

What Americans really think about Muslims and Islam

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:45 pm
SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

tuxbox wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:I have never watched the view so I have no idea what you are talking about. However, there is a difference between criticizing the dominant culture and criticizing a minority one.

How is that not a double standard? If you willing to mock one religion, you should be able to mock another. Scientologists are a minority and they are also mocked. So please tell me the difference?

No one has ever been assaulted on the street because someone thought they were a Scientologist.

I have the right to mock Islam and in certain contexts I may do so. However, I recognize that when a group is facing discrimination and threats of violence I do not want to validate the actions of bigots.

It is not a double standard to recognize that the rules of appropriate behaviour are influenced by context.

SpecialFrog wrote:Look at groups like Ex Muslims of North America if you want to see people effectively fighting both bad Islamic practices and Islamophobia.

Never heard of them. That being said, criticizing Islam does not make one an Islamophobe and that is my point.[/quote]
Indeed, but treating Islam and Muslims as monolithic is at best unhelpful.

Islam is the religion practised by Muslims. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims.

A worldview that fails to recognize the existence of nuance is unlikely to yield useful solutions.
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:54 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: A Response to Islamophobia

SpecialFrog wrote:No one has ever been assaulted on the street because someone thought they were a Scientologist.

I have the right to mock Islam and in certain contexts I may do so. However, I recognize that when a group is facing discrimination and threats of violence I do not want to validate the actions of bigots.

It is not a double standard to recognize that the rules of appropriate behaviour are influenced by context.


That makes sense.

SpecialFrog wrote:Indeed, but treating Islam and Muslims as monolithic is at best unhelpful.

Islam is the religion practised by Muslims. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims.

A worldview that fails to recognize the existence of nuance is unlikely to yield useful solutions.


Again, that makes sense.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:19 pm
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