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Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

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Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?
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NiocanBannedUser avatarPosts: 769Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:57 amLocation: Winnipeg, Manitoba Gender: Male

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

My my, You can lucid dream? This just got far more interesting :)

As crazy as you might think I am, let me have some fun here. Forgive my symbolic like writing patterns, but let's get started.

Durakken wrote:I have a limited number of types of dreams... Nightmares are dominant.

Going back to what I said before, dreams are messages between your subconscious and conscious state; As such a nightmare is a sign of conflict between the two... One side wants something done, and the other is resisting. Don't worry about finding specific conflicts yourself, the conflict is known already, and it's just a matter of giving it expression / order / a label.

Durakken wrote:I have never had a dream like what other people describe where it all great and blah.

Dreams will never be completely the same between people, as we all view the world differently. There will be common themes though, and these are the archetypes I spoke of.

Durakken wrote:I have had 2 freakish "god speaking" dreams which i dismiss as brain chemicals as nothing has ever come of them.

Usually a god figure in dreams is your personal projection of overall perfection, and the message given will usually revolve around such insights. This can simply be a reflection or aspect of yourself trying to pass along some helpful hints, and if they didn't come true it's because a message passed between yourself to yourself about yourself won't come true without your effort.

It's important to drop all the baggage one has around these terms, seeing as how it's all just *how you view* things that determines how they're represented in your dreams.

Durakken wrote:1 dream where I literally dreamed an entire day and thought it was real, because of how realistic it was, and a few dozen future sight type dreams.

Congratulations, you had a lucid dream ^.~ I feel I have to mention that the more you try and accomplish lucid dreaming the easier it becomes. Find your mantra ;)

Durakken wrote:The last type ALWAYS ends with someone dying, which you would think would be an excellent clue, but considering the nightmares, not so much. this happens with every single one that I would say was predictive of the future about people and places i couldn't know about. This also throws out the ability for it to be a fake memory or deja vu.

Your reaction to my first response was interesting, and if you carry such hardset views into your dreams I feel the death part here is just your mind attempting to stop the dream before it becomes so apparent that this isn't a fluke of the mind that it'll shatter your ego.

In your dreams, you are God. Do what thou wilt with Love as the Law and you'll be fine dear Child of Light. ;)
/symbolism
Know, O man, that Light is thine heritage. Know that darkness is only a veil. Sealed in thine heart is brightness eternal, waiting the moment of freedom to conquer, waiting to rend the veil of the night. --Thoth
Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:25 am
ExeFBMUser avatarPosts: 169Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:39 pm

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Durakken wrote:The problem is I said I had told other about what i dreamed of before the event happened and thus could not be deja vu


You said that there were a few dreams that definitely weren't deja vu, as you'd told them to people before hand. Could you tell us about one of the dreams that came true that you talked about with others. Specifically what actually happened in the dream, and how it related to the actual event. I'd rather it was a dream that you spoke with others about, just so that any instances of deja vu, can be removed.
Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:34 am
jrparriUser avatarPosts: 120Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:25 amLocation: Chicago, Illinois Gender: Cake

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Dream journal or stfu.

You know what the standards of evidence are, stop dancing around and just do it.


Can we close this thread now?

edit: PS, Niocan --
In your dreams, you are God.

I like to fight zombies in my lucid dreams. ^_^v It just never gets old. If you want to lucid dream, then you need to strengthen your skeptical, rational side. The moment you're in a dream and recognize that "there's no way in hell this is real..." then it becomes a lucid dream and you can do whatever you want.

That's hard to do if you tend to be uncritical of fantasy even when you're awake.

Just some friendly advice.
$s=$ARGV[0];$l=length $s;@a=pack "B$l",$s;print "@a\n"
0100101001110101011100110111010000100000011000010110111001101111011101000110100001100101011100100010


"Dude, you aren't qualified to make such pronouncements." ... srsly.

0000010100000110010101110010011011000010000001101000011000010110001101101011011001010111001000101100
Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:30 pm
MarcusUser avatarPosts: 284Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:26 pmLocation: NW England

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

I dreamed about this thread two weeks ago and now it's happenig exactly like it did in my dream!
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house." - Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:59 pm
scalyblueUser avatarPosts: 1417Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:02 am

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

That's funny, I dreamed about you dreaming about this thread...except there was a zombie robot jesus in it....
_________________
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共に滅びの道を歩まん
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Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:22 pm
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3527Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

jrparri wrote:Dream journal or stfu.
No need to be rude. He's not trying to prove it to us, he's asking if he's rationally justified in thinking it's true for himself. I can understand frustrations with Niocan, because the guy rejects evidence as having value (or at the very least, he rejects objective evidence as being the arbiter of truth), but Durakken here is asking a simple question.

My answer is, of course, no. But I answer that from the position that I used to have the same experience until a few things happened: I researched deja vu, I learned how poor our memory is, I learned how much our brain really works to make things fit even if they don't, and I learned about statistically unintuitive things like the birthday problem/paradox. From the group of which I determined that my specific experience was some combination of all of these.

From a more general standpoint, is repeated personal experience evidence? No, because it relies on your own subjective view of the world, and is subject to your inability to account for something. If you watch qualiasoup's youtube video on "open mindedness" he has this wonderful example of his friend seeing a "ghost" moving a lampshade, but qualiasoup goes and turns off a fan. Had the latter not been present, the former would have had one more personal experience verifying that ghosts are real. I reject repeated personal experience as personal evidence because I understand all the flaws in my perception (memory is poor, our brain loves to make things fit even if they don't, my personal inability to account for something outside of the supernatural does not mean there isn't a natural explanation, and we as a species do not have a good intuitive understanding of statistics (with possible exception of mathematicians or maybe statisticians)).
Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:26 pm
DurakkenPosts: 682Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:02 am

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Niocan, the least you can do is do a little bit of researching before you make claims like that.

People with higher intellects tend to have a lot of nightmares. You are claiming every intellectual person is in massive conflict and that is just idiotic.

How are you, who just said that dreams are for the dreamer to interpret, able to say what anything in a dream means? Faulty logic. Also I have read up on what people think dreams mean and they are pretty much worthless. Different sources contradict each other, in my experience are never right, and as pointed out it is pretty stupid to claim that only x can do something, and I'm not x but here is me trying to do it.

What I described is not a lucid dream. A Lucid dream is when you realize you are dreaming and are able to control it. Anyone who does enough research and cares to do it can. I would think that Lucid dreaming is bad considering what researchers think is going on while one is dreaming. The better way to control dreams is to tell yourself a story as you fall asleep so that a dream flow from that. Also in many cases the dreams that you had are dropped in favor of the memory of the story which is also reinforced by the dream.

Please, stop your nonsense. Had this been somewhere else and someone else they might have given weight to what you are saying and you might have caused them problems. That, to me, is wrong.

ExeFBM, I mentioned it before. I had a dream that took place in a class. Just a regular lecture. The first time I entered the class room I knew it was the one from the dream and i recognized both the teacher a number of other students, almost all of which at that time I had not met yet.

burrofburi, It was probably a number of things coinciding with each other that gave the effect, some of which are probably things you pointed out, but I think there is probably more to it. For example, I used to auto cold read people and could tell a lot about a person just by looking at them. I didn't understand where the info was coming from, but now that I know how aging works/wrinkles form, meaning behind colors, and a number of other things it's fairly obvious that my subconscious was feeding me info based on the interpretations of these things. After figuring this all out, I don't do it any more because I find that it is a bit boring and rude.
Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:42 pm
ExeFBMUser avatarPosts: 169Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:39 pm

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Durakken wrote:ExeFBM, I mentioned it before. I had a dream that took place in a class. Just a regular lecture. The first time I entered the class room I knew it was the one from the dream and i recognized both the teacher a number of other students, almost all of which at that time I had not met yet.

This seems like quite a mundane situation to have dreamed. Was there a reason that you told other people about it before the actual event occured? Normally I'd only tell people about dreams that had something more unusual or noteworthy about them.
Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:48 pm
scalyblueUser avatarPosts: 1417Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:02 am

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Seriously, how do you know it was the exact classroom? Were there distinguishing features? To me, classrooms are pretty...generic.
_________________
悪夢の王の一片よ
空のいましめ解き放たれし
凍れる黒き虚無の刃よ
我が力 我が身となりて
共に滅びの道を歩まん
神々の魂すらも打ち砕き
Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:12 pm
NiocanBannedUser avatarPosts: 769Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:57 amLocation: Winnipeg, Manitoba Gender: Male

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Durakken wrote:People with higher intellects tend to have a lot of nightmares. You are claiming every intellectual person is in massive conflict and that is just idiotic.

It's far more common then you might think, and my claim was that anyone with a nightmare has a conflict within them. A problem with 'intellectuals' imho is that they fail to fully apply what they know to their lives, and as such problems they have aren't cleared up and are more recognized by the subconscious. I'm being rather vague here for a reason, as it's just an archetype.

Durakken wrote:How are you, who just said that dreams are for the dreamer to interpret, able to say what anything in a dream means? Faulty logic.

Archetypes Archetypes Archetypes, besides I said that only you can *fully* interpret it.

Durakken wrote:Also I have read up on what people think dreams mean and they are pretty much worthless. Different sources contradict each other, in my experience are never right, and as pointed out it is pretty stupid to claim that only x can do something, and I'm not x but here is me trying to do it.

You're trying to understand Japanese by reading German, stop that, forget what other people say about it and look for the commonalities. You form your dreams, you're the painter of the images you see.. What do they mean to you?

Durakken wrote:The better way to control dreams is to tell yourself a story as you fall asleep so that a dream flow from that. Also in many cases the dreams that you had are dropped in favor of the memory of the story which is also reinforced by the dream.

Story? or message :)


I also ask how this is going to cause someone problems, seeing as how all I'm telling you is that dreams give us a window of our subconscious. It's up to you to learn something from them, because you're the one doing the teaching.
Know, O man, that Light is thine heritage. Know that darkness is only a veil. Sealed in thine heart is brightness eternal, waiting the moment of freedom to conquer, waiting to rend the veil of the night. --Thoth
Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:04 pm
jrparriUser avatarPosts: 120Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:25 amLocation: Chicago, Illinois Gender: Cake

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

borrofburi wrote:No need to be rude.

If mine were the first reply, it'd been rude (but no less valid a response). But we're on page 2 here. You've done well doing Durakken's research for him - but he just comes back with yeahbuts:
... "yeah but it's not deja vue"
....... "yeah but I told people"
.............."yeah but... "

I stand by my bitchiness, dammit. (I don't even really pay attention to Niocan).
$s=$ARGV[0];$l=length $s;@a=pack "B$l",$s;print "@a\n"
0100101001110101011100110111010000100000011000010110111001101111011101000110100001100101011100100010


"Dude, you aren't qualified to make such pronouncements." ... srsly.

0000010100000110010101110010011011000010000001101000011000010110001101101011011001010111001000101100
Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:52 pm
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3527Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Durakken wrote:burrofburi, It was probably a number of things coinciding with each other that gave the effect, some of which are probably things you pointed out, but I think there is probably more to it. For example, I used to auto cold read people and could tell a lot about a person just by looking at them. I didn't understand where the info was coming from, but now that I know how aging works/wrinkles form, meaning behind colors, and a number of other things it's fairly obvious that my subconscious was feeding me info based on the interpretations of these things. After figuring this all out, I don't do it any more because I find that it is a bit boring and rude.
First, how much do you know about deja vu, surprising statistical results (e.g. birthday paradox), how hard the mind works to make things fit, and how bad our memories really are (e.g. grouping phenomenon, false memories, certainty that a memory being true not being correlated to it actually being true (except extremely loosely), 1956 airshow disaster in england (example of a large group *all* remembering incorrectly))? If you do know about those, then how precisely do you think your specific "my dreams predict reality" experience is different from all the ones that can be easily explained by a combination of those factors? What precise distinguishing characteristic do your dreams have?

You yourself used to think you were psychic, you had repeated personal evidence that you were, and yet you now know the reasons you weren't. Why precisely do you think this is different?

I already did a quick estimate (earlier in this thread) that most people have on the order of 800 dreams per year that are loosely transcribed into their memories. For me it's much larger than that because I like to hit snooze a couple times per morning (it's even *larger* for people who have sleep apnea or something else that prevents proper sleeping through the night). How many of your dreams are mundane? It's probably even more than you think, because the most mundane ones are the ones that we are least likely to consciously remember when we wake up, so let's say on average 600 per year (for me it's more like 1200 to 1400 per year).

Now comes the important questions. How many of those would have to be "hits" for you to start to wonder if maybe you were predicting the future? For me it'd be like 10 a year and I'd start to think something might be up, but that's a "success" rate of less than a tenth of a percent. How many details of that specific dream do you think you actually have transcribed as data, as opposed to merely fuzzy values? How likely is it that the brain will make up details in one of its astounding efforts to make things fit? Keeping in mind both the lack of details in a memory of a dream, and the incredible amount of effort the brain will work to *make* things fit, how close do you think a dream has to correlate to reality for it to be considered a "hit"? How many situations do you experience a year? If you still go to highschool, I estimate on the order of several hundred a day, we'll say 100. So, we have 100 situations a day, 3,650 per year, all of which possibly correlate with thousands of dreams stored in memory (on the order of 600 to 1400 per year, some of which will be overwritten, many of which will stay and compound with future years), and keeping in mind the results of things like the birthday paradox, what do you think the odds are?

Every single situation you walk into has hundreds if not thousands of possible detail deficient memories of dreams it can correlate to, and your brain will work incredibly hard to make it correlate, even to go so far as to *invent* a memory (our brains do it all the time). Why, precisely, do you think that this is not the case? Why, precisely, do you think this is not another cold reading fluke, or different from the "ghost" qualiasoup's friend saw (that I mentioned in my last post)? Looking at our rather poor statistical analysis, doesn't this indicate the odds are actually quite low, especially keeping in mind how detail-deficient our memories are, how our mind likes to make memories up, and how our mind will simply *make* things fit? We're essentially asking how many of thosuands of real life experiences per year might correlate (loosely correlate, keeping in my the detail-deficiencies of memories of dreams, and the mind's propensity to just force things to fit) with thousands of dreams in your lifetime, making it what is effectively a fuzzier birthday paradox. So why, precisely, do you think your dreams correlating to reality are different? What, precisely, makes you think you're really predicting the future, and not simply experiencing a combination of these well know effects?
Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:50 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Personal experience is only personal evidence. It cannot be used in arguments to convince other people. And I speak from personal experience. :lol:

Something that I've started saying... which means if you see it elsewhere, that person is ripping me off (like that "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby thing" that should be attributed to me!!!!)... anyhoo, I've been saying "I don't care what you think you know, I only care about what you can actually show." Personal experience is by definition personal. What we generally call "evidence" is that category of things that can be observed by more than one person. So personal experience can't be considered evidence by anyone but the person who has the experience.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:09 am
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3527Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

ImprobableJoe wrote:(like that "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby thing" that should be attributed to me!!!!)
First, imitation is the highest form of flattery. Second, sometimes multiple people come up with the same idea at similar times.
Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

borrofburi wrote:First, imitation is the highest form of flattery. Second, sometimes multiple people come up with the same idea at similar times.

I admit to all sorts of ego on this... but I started collecting stamps in 1981, and was online in 1991. So, I don't think I'm crazy to claim credit... especially since I've been asked personally for attribution on three different occasions.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:43 am
DurakkenPosts: 682Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:02 am

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

borrofburi, I did say I think it's a combination of things and that I don't think it's predicting the future. So I'm agreeing with you and just not that it's only those exact things...

Also, gotta point out, people who don't sleep well have less dreams. Dreams happen when someone enters REM sleep. If you aren't entering REM sleep you are not sleeping well or you're waking up often. Often times the dream that you have is repeated during the other 4 or 5 REM cycles you have during the night if you sleep well, but not always.
Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:02 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

Durakken wrote:Also, gotta point out, people who don't sleep well have less dreams.

Not true. Or, at least it is true that people who sleep poorly remember their dreams. Or maybe I remember more dreams than most and also sleep poorly...
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:19 am
DurakkenPosts: 682Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:02 am

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

ImprobableJoe wrote:
Durakken wrote:Also, gotta point out, people who don't sleep well have less dreams.

Not true. Or, at least it is true that people who sleep poorly remember their dreams. Or maybe I remember more dreams than most and also sleep poorly...


It's one of those things when you say it without really thinking about it is odd, but if you think about it isn't.

poor sleepers, depending on how deep they get per sleep session, will likely remember more dreams, but have overall less.

Let's say a normal person hits 5 REM cycles a night and remembers 1
If someone wakes up after each REM cycle but still has 5 they are more likely to remember all 5
If someone only has 3 REM cycles and wakes up between 1 and 2 and then sleep through 2 and 3 they will remember 1 and 2 or 3 more likely than the first person who has 5 dreams, but can only remember 1 on average.
Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:47 am
jrparriUser avatarPosts: 120Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:25 amLocation: Chicago, Illinois Gender: Cake

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

borrofburi wrote:Every single situation you walk into has hundreds if not thousands of possible detail deficient memories of dreams it can correlate to, and your brain will work incredibly hard to make it correlate, even to go so far as to *invent* a memory (our brains do it all the time).


In fact, this is also a helpful way to understand Scientology, UFO abductions, and other "recovered memory" scams.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/10/07/1213245.htm


Actually this thread reminds me of when I read tarot cards during HS and college - I always started out with a disclaimer about what cold reading is and how it works (I also started doing it by accident before I discovered it) and how tarot cards are like a guided Rorschach test that echos back whatever you are already thinking (maybe subconsciously).

My disclaimers never worked - people still thought it was magic or whatever. I quit doing it altogether a few years back. Maybe that's why I'm pissy -- frustrating memories.
$s=$ARGV[0];$l=length $s;@a=pack "B$l",$s;print "@a\n"
0100101001110101011100110111010000100000011000010110111001101111011101000110100001100101011100100010


"Dude, you aren't qualified to make such pronouncements." ... srsly.

0000010100000110010101110010011011000010000001101000011000010110001101101011011001010111001000101100
Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:54 pm
OnkelCannabiaUser avatarPosts: 156Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:46 pmLocation: Germany

Post Re: Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

For example one was just sitting in a class room during a lecture. Nothing special. When I had the dream I had never even been in the class room or met any of the people, but where and while the events happened I knew everyone in the classroom and the classroom.

I distinctly remember the dream several times before, and I remember and can predict the events as they happened in those dreams and the dreams that I don't have clear memory of before the events begin to occur I remember within the first few seconds of the events.


I'm interested in what exactly you were able to predict. And by predict I mean that you could predict any specific action someone would take in advance. The sentences I put in bold are definite signs of déjà -vu, yet you listed them as evidence. So Please tell us your most unlikely and precise predictions and how often you make them. Without knowing what these predictions are, we can't really give you anything but very generalized answers about brain functions and probability. What you said so far sounds more like déjà -vu than anything else.

I'm especially interested in what you have to say, because my sister makes repeated claims about transcendental experiences, but she has a strong tendency to interpret things as supernatural and uses postmodernism as a shield against any kind of rational criticism. So it is nice to hear a skeptical person talk about such experiences.

Oh, and while I would put it much more politely, I have to agree with "dream journal or stfu" ;)
Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:34 pm
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