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Homeopathic medication

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Homeopathic medication
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boonwPosts: 53Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:08 amLocation: Aurora ON Canada

Post Homeopathic medication

This is a rather frustrating subject for me. Many people I know, and especially my family in particular are big on homeopathic medication. Now, I am not claiming to be biased on this stuff, but I know for a fact some of these remedies work, such as arnica. However, the industry rather bothers me. When I am dragged to the health food store by my mother, I ask questions like "is there any statistical studies and peer review showing this stuff works?" and I am passed off as someone who is "ignorant" and "closed minded"

Indeed, this rather bothers me. The salespeople always make these factual claims about what they are selling, but give no evidence to show that what they are arguing is correct. Indeed, I have been told that the peer review is controlled by pharmaceuticals. this is what I often argue. Indeed, it is ignored that both the "conspiracy argument" is used by every group who cant get their views accepted such as flat earthists, creationists, and others, and the fact that many medicine journals have no link to pharmaceutical companies. Indeed, I have often been accused of being closed minded for asking for a double blind study, where say 2000 people were given the remedy and 2000 people were not given it to see if the statistics show pain relief or other cures. If they did this, they wouldnt have to go around and avoid pharmacies, they would actually get recommended by doctors and physicians and get right into the pharmacies.

What also bothers me is the accusation by supporters to say that the pharmaceutical companies are only out to get money and that they set up the system to sell drugs that dont work. It is both ignored that regulations require studies for the pharmacies to sell drugs, and if something goes wrong then those affected can sue. More ironically, some homeopathic medications can cost well over one hundred dollars. To argue that the these companies lie and sell ineffective products for money is perhaps more true for the homeopathic companies. Indeed, if there were some of the dramatic effects that proponents claim, why arent these companies all over it? and why arent they trying gain monopolies on this new form of treatment? Some homeopaths have dangerously implanted the idea that all non-natural medications are unhealthy for you regardless of how many lives they have proven to save.

The last thing i would like to touch on is the truly pseudoscience things I have heard about this stuff. Now, anyone selling this stuff will tell you you cant touch it, and if you do its unusable. I have heard two reasons. Now, while the real reason is to avoid contamination, actually touching the stuff should not make the medicine useless as the compounds in it are still intact, they try and make it sound like one contamination on it will make it useless. I guess you better not put it in your mouth, because there is a shitload of bacteria in there. The other thing I have heard is that the energies (you hear right, some chi shit) work in harmony with your bodies energies and if you touch it then the energy is lost. now, seriously..... people actually believe that shit? I really do need to think that these people need to get their stories right, because if they cant agree with themselves, why should we trust them at all?

Quite simply, homeopathic remedies has potential, however, the people pushing it are dimwits. I would suggest you try some of them, but not use it as an alternative to proven medicines. Also dont listen to any of the accusations by the supporting extremist groups, they are like mini kent hovinds.

I would also encourage others to share their opinion on homeopathic remedies
By the time you are done reading this, you will have realized you have wasted two seconds of your life.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:51 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Homeopathic "remedies" don't work, unless you count "placebo" as "working." Homeopathy doesn't work BY DEFINITION: that is to say, the ideas behind how it is supposed to work are so deeply and profoundly wrong that there's almost a 100% likelihood of failure. Diluting a chemical until it disappears doesn't make it a remedy, it makes it nothing at all. If you think drug companies are bad, at least they are selling you SOMETHING, and it might actually do SOMETHING. Homeopathy is nothing, that does nothing.

You should trust your instincts on this one: when someone calls you "closed minded" when you ask for evidence, it is because they know that there isn't any evidence, and they are trying to cheat you... and they might not even know it, they might be victims of the same fraud they are trying to convince you of.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:16 am
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

I think you are halfway there. Homeopathy has no proven benefit, it doesn't pass scientific tests, and it was even debunked by the James Randi crew.

Homeopathy contends that water has memory able to hold the 'chi' of a minutely diluted substance. How come water only remembers the good substances and forgets all the urine and feces that have passed through it?

If you want to pay $100 for a small vial of pure water go right ahead, but the purveyors of this junk shouldn't be allowed to make these health claims which are simply not true.
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:20 am
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OzymandyusUser avatarPosts: 986Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Well, the truth is homeopathy and related bullshit-ery is a multi-billion dollar a year industry. They don't want to risk their sweet deal of selling water as medicine by putting their claims on the line in scientific studies.

The truth is half the people that use this shit have nothing wrong with them, its all in their heads. So yeah, they can be 'cured' by anything that they think works. Try to give this stuff to chemo patients instead of their normal regimen of real medicines and you will see them vomitting all over you or beating you to death for the real meds.

I admit that the pharmeceuticals industry is screwed up as hell. Still, they work... they just sometimes work TOO well or have side effects because they aren't just water.
And in an instant all progress towards the sublime, the great and enduring in man fell away and became a monkey's trick.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:39 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Ozymandyus wrote:I admit that the pharmeceuticals industry is screwed up as hell. Still, they work... they just sometimes work TOO well or have side effects because they aren't just water.

That's the biggest joke about the whole homeopathy thing: they brag about the lack of side effects, and ignore the complete lack of ANY effects.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:44 am
JosanUser avatarPosts: 426Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

boonw wrote:This is a rather frustrating subject for me. Many people I know, and especially my family in particular are big on homeopathic medication. Now, I am not claiming to be biased on this stuff, but I know for a fact some of these remedies work, such as arnica. However, the industry rather bothers me. When I am dragged to the health food store by my mother, I ask questions like "is there any statistical studies and peer review showing this stuff works?" and I am passed off as someone who is "ignorant" and "closed minded"


I'm sorry boonw, but you are wrong on this point, while arnica can be used for medicine, homeopathic arnica will not have any medicinal value other than a placebo, as it is way to deluted.

Quoted from wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:Medicinal uses
Arnica montana has been used medicinally for centuries.[1] The roots contain derivatives of thymol,[3] which are used as fungicides and preservatives and may have some anti-inflammatory effect.[4] Arnica is currently used in liniment and ointment preparations used for strains, sprains, and bruises. Commercial arnica preparations are frequently used by professional athletes.[5] Arnica should not be taken internally due to its toxicity, with the possible exception of homeopathic preparations that are diluted until none of the chemicals from the plant remain.[6][7]
The medicial effects of Arnica montana have been studied somewhat and many of the historical uses validated to some extent by clinical research. Some mechanisms are well-understood, but many researchers call for more research before drawing strong conclusions.
The thymol derivatives concentrated in the plants roots have been clinically shown to be effective vasodilators of subcutaneous blood capillaries.[citation needed] Arnica preparations used topically have been demonstrated to act as an anti-inflammatory and assist normal healing processes by facilitating transport of blood and fluid accumulations through a dilating action of subcutaneous blood capillaries.[citation needed] In one double-blind trial, Arnica montana was found to be equally effective as the more expensive diclofenac for accelerating wound healing after foot surgery, but was less effective than the same drug for pain relief.[8] A study of wound-healing after surgery to treat varicose veins found a trend towards a beneficial effect of reduction of pain and hematoma following surgery.[9]

Homeopathy
The homeopathic use of arnica, however, has been found by multiple studies to be no more effective than a placebo.[10][11] The fact that homeopathic studies of Arnica have even been the subject of published clinical trials has drawn criticism on the grounds that the basic premise of high dilution used in homeopathy is inherently flawed.[12]


You make many good points in your post, like for example the ones with testing and peer-review. And why wouldn't doctors use it if it really worked? I think you have really seen what is wrong with the homeopathic industry, but I don't think you have really seen why homeopathy doesn't work, why it CAN'T work. As many has pointed out, homeopathic medicine is just water, if homeopethy is proven to work, we would have to rewrite a LOT of textbooks in both chemistry, physics and medicine. Homeopathy goes against everything thing we know on the subject, and I think we know quite a lot.
boonw wrote:Quite simply, homeopathic remedies has potential, however, the people pushing it are dimwits. [...]

I would say you are wrong again here, and would suggest rewriting it to "Quite simply, homeopathic remedies has no potential whatsoever, and the people pushing it are dimwits.
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Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:44 am
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

There's that great comment:-
What do you call alternative medicine that has been proven to work?

Medicine!

Ba dum pshhhhh
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:51 am
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WhisperelmwoodUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:38 amLocation: Chippenham, UK Gender: Female

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Homeopathy is a BIG bugbear of mine, it simply gets on my tits. The stuff is useless, it's run by idiots and most of the people who back it are either gullible or have lacked hope anywhere else.

My biggest problem with Homeopathy is that the people behind it claim it can cure all sorts of things - from simply sleeplessness, to fucking cancer. NO IT DOESN'T. People who are ill or have no money, are being duped into using this stuff and putting waht little life they have left or what little money they have saved, at risk because of some multi-billion corporstion says 'we have the anecdotes!'

There is no evidence that Homeopathy works - there have actually been a number of investigations (the most recent is slightly controvertial, because it was run primarily by the BBC and involved James Randi and some other things that the Homeopaths dislike) and they've all come up with nothing - when the investigation has been done properly.

The only time you get favorable results, is when the people doing the investigation are incompetant, biased or just plain over-looking simple things that make the investigation insecure.

I wrote an essay on homeopathy a while ago, find it here: Homeopathy: An Essay

I suppose I should update it to include the recent BBC study and some other information that has since come to my attention. In the comments, you'll find a couple people who tried to ram their idea of evidence for it down my throat, one of them, John Bennet, has been debunked frequently by many sources, including the JREF, and he has a youtube channel: Bandershot where I have spoken with him a couple times.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:56 am
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WhisperelmwoodUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:38 amLocation: Chippenham, UK Gender: Female

Post Re: Homeopathic medication



Here's the first part of the BBC investigation. I would link you the whole thing that the JREF has up, but it looks like they've made the vids private, so no-one can watch them. >>
Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:41 am
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JosanUser avatarPosts: 426Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Great vid! I'll have to look for the rest.
Image
Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:53 am
DaealisUser avatarPosts: 235Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:48 pmLocation: Tampere

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Aught3 wrote:There's that great comment:-
What do you call alternative medicine that has been proven to work?

Medicine!
Ba dum pshhhhh

I don't know if this is taken straight from Tim Minchins beatpoem Storm, or was it self-made.

A great comedian/musician if you haven't seen him. Ponders on stupidity really quite nicely. And as regards to the OP, there is also a nice little bit about "natural" medicine as well.

Storm: Pharmaseutical companies are the enemy,
they promote drug dependency,
at the cost of natural remedies,
that are all our bodies need,
They're all immoral and driven by greed,
Why take drugs when herbs can solve it?

Tim: By definition,
alternative medicine,
Has either not been proven to work,
Or been proved, NOT to work.
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine

Storm: So you don't believe in any natural remedies?
Tim: On the contrary, Storm, actually,
Before we came to tea,
I took a natural remedy,
Derived from a bark of a willow tree.
A painkiller, Virtually side-effect free.
It's got a weird name, what was it again?
M-m-maspirin?
Baspirin? Oh yeah- Aspirin!



Either way, that is the single most perfect way to describe alternative medicine. If, IF the homeopathic shit would work you could acquire all the worlds diseases and cures to them by drinking water from a natural lake/river/ocean, where the water hasn't been tampered, if homeopathy claims that the cleaning procedures of water companies somehow reverse the dilution effects. The simplest refute to the whole homeopathy is the existence of diseases despite the watercycle in nature. If water had a long term memory, every disease-revoking agent would be in every water molecule.

From what I've understood to be the essence of homeopathy, you have some substances, that produce similar symptoms, when digested, as a disease has. If you then take those substances into your system, it will counter the illness causing those symptoms in you. The LESS you take the substance, the more potent it becomes in its counter-effect.

I have to admit I'm not sure if they have a list of herbs that only work, but lets for the fun of arguing say, that any herb with the effect does the trick. So by diluting a nanogram of tobacco in the water , and taking a drop of that solution into a pool, you should have a pool of medicine that cures nausea, fever and vomiting. If you've ever swam in a public pool, you should be cured of fever and nausea of any sorts(there is bound to be ONE smoker in the pool at some point who has rolled his own tobacco). I really don't understand how you could dress that up so that someone with half a brain would believe you.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
- Albert Einstein
Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:03 pm
Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2748Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

For accusations of "close mildness" I suggest you take a look at this:


And no, homeopathic couldn't possible work. The matter of the fact is who ever works in this industry only does so either for knowingly fraud or they simple are so amazingly stupid that they don't see that what they are doing is based completely on some one else's stupidity.

Homeopathic principle is very simplistic:
First of all it has absolutely no mechanics what so ever, whatever you make up is as valid as this, at there is absolutely no way to infer any of the properties they claim it has, neither they have any data that suggest that it should even do anything much less work.
There is the made up idea that like cures like. I.e. Whatever causes the symptoms of your affliction is what it is used to cure.
That is insane to say at least because:
1. There is no cause effect relations between similar symptomatic pathogens and the reason they cause what they cause. i.e. it could work the same way as it couldn't.
2. Because the compound that you are administrating might be the cause of the affliction in the first place.
The other absurd idea is dilution, although that the idea that diluting the compound will attenuate the harmful effect is not entirely incorrect, the idea that it somehow that makes it stronger has a remedy is absurd:
1. Because there is less of the compound that causes the effect.
2. Because the idea that somehow that happens implicates that chemistry has the ability to distinguish harmful from beneficial effects like it was a conscious being.
Furthermore there is a bigger problem associated whit the quantity of dilutions that they go to. The molecules of the compound are finite, and it is quite easy to know how much there is by its weight, and it has been calculated that the general amount of the dilutions doesn't guarantee that there is even a single molecule of the substance in it. In fact it is more probable to have 2 guys on each end of the golden gate bridge, have them shot a bullet to each other and that the bullets collide in mid air than to find a single molecule of the compound present in the remedy.

If that isn't reason enough to call it quackery, I don't know what is.

Careful! Not all of the "pseudo-drugs" sold in homeopathic stores are homeopathic, there has been a counter-production of fake homeopathic remedies (fake-fakes) to counter the effect of people not taking a real medication for certain diseases.
"I have an irrefutable argument for the existence of...." NO, STOP! You are already wrong!
Last edited by Master_Ghost_Knight on Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:13 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

boonw wrote: Now, I am not claiming to be biased on this stuff, but I know for a fact some of these remedies work, such as arnica.

I missed this the first time through. This might be one of those "fake homeopathic remedies" that is just "arnica." There's a chemical in it that acts as an anti-inflammatory effect... so it isn't "alternative medicine" at all, it is just medicine.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:40 pm
JosanUser avatarPosts: 426Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

I might be a little slow Master_Ghost_Knight, but this seems to go against everything else in your post:

Master_Ghost_Knight wrote:And no, homeopathic could possible work.
Image
Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:30 pm
ebbixxUser avatarPosts: 227Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:33 amLocation: Nüå Jøïzæð

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Whisperelmwood wrote:Here's the first part of the BBC investigation. I would link you the whole thing that the JREF has up, but it looks like they've made the vids private, so no-one can watch them. >>


Speaking of JREF, see the vid below for the details (from JR himself) about the recent suspension. The video in question might be one of those they're reviewing to ensure it doesn't violate copyright.

Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:00 pm
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ebbixxUser avatarPosts: 227Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:33 amLocation: Nüå Jøïzæð

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Master_Ghost_Knight wrote:And no, homeopathic could possible work. The matter of the fact is who ever works in this industry only does so either for knowingly fraud or they simple are so amazingly stupid that they don't see that what they are doing is based completely on some one else's stupidity.


Or, Ockham's Razor on the job, they could just be fond of having food and shelter and found their way into the business by any number of means, like answering a want ad. In my experience, people will say all sorts of things they don't necessarily believe if there's a paycheck as incentive.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:06 pm
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Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2748Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Josan117 wrote:I might be a little slow Master_Ghost_Knight, but this seems to go against everything else in your post:


I miss speled it I meant couldn't possibly work, thx for the heads up.

ebbixx wrote:Or, Ockham's Razor on the job, they could just be fond of having food and shelter and found their way into the business by any number of means, like answering a want ad. In my experience, people will say all sorts of things they don't necessarily believe if there's a paycheck as incentive.

Obviously I generalized allot, but it all sums up to those who do know that is BS and do it anyway, and those who are ignorant of what it is. There is no real legit education in the busines (and I didn't include any none-research personel).
"I have an irrefutable argument for the existence of...." NO, STOP! You are already wrong!
Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:26 pm
Aught3ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 4290Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 amLocation: New Zealand Gender: Male

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Daealis wrote:I don't know if this is taken straight from Tim Minchins beatpoem Storm, or was it self-made.
Ah, I couldn't remember where it came from well done for getting it.
Wanderer, there is no path, the path is made by walking.
Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:01 pm
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Th1sWasATriumphLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 415Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:24 amLocation: About two feet behind AndromedasWake, with a brick in a sock

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

ImprobableJoe wrote:I missed this the first time through. This might be one of those "fake homeopathic remedies" that is just "arnica." There's a chemical in it that acts as an anti-inflammatory effect... so it isn't "alternative medicine" at all, it is just medicine.


Yeah, there's a difference between naturally occuring (herbal) remedies and complete bullshit.
An omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God would know exactly why I don't believe in him, but would send me to hell regardless. Have I just described your God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwah_9O_4i4
Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:23 pm
OzymandyusUser avatarPosts: 986Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Post Re: Homeopathic medication

Arnica is also used homeopathically, that is, it is diluted millions of times and then ingested. That use of it is most certainly not effective.
And in an instant all progress towards the sublime, the great and enduring in man fell away and became a monkey's trick.
Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:50 pm
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