australopithecusPosts: 4232Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord
This is a debate between bluejatheist and DepricatedZero. Standard debate rules apply and there are no time limits of posting.
As always a discussion thread will be found in General Discussion.
bluejatheist will open.
|Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:21 pm||
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male
Note: This does not reflect my actual positions, ideology or beliefs. My pro-fascist position is for the purposes of this debate only, in order to have a challenging and unusual experience.
Also note: Unlike the previous debate I participated in, I will have the time to see this one through.
Thanks to DepricatedZero for taking time for a debate and Austra for setup.
My points will be organized into lettered sections with numbered sub-sections, for ease of rebuttal. I will use brevity and keep content simple and straightforward and avoid unnecessary content that may slow down load times. Once again, this debate doesn't reflect my 'true' position, but rather is for the sake of intellectual discussion of a challenging subject.
Section A: Pre-Argument Clarifications
Before proceeding to make my opening arguments I would like to establish an agreement of terminology and settle any disputes before they become a problem later in the debate.
A-1: My Thesis/Position: Fascism is demonstrably capable of establishing a stable, peaceful and prosperous society and is ideal for circumstances where international conflict is likely or expansion is necessary. The failures of historical fascist governments are not due to their system of government failing.
A-2: I will be debating with the following definitions in use:
(World English Dictionary)
Disagreements with my given definitions will be addressed with priority if they are voiced.
A-3: Based upon the previous definition, when I refer to the term Fascism I will mean:
A system of government with:
1: A single leader with absolute power who may be replaced via a process of appointing a successor or hierarchical advancement upon death or expulsion.
2: Authority over all aspects of society including the press, the courts, healthcare, the military, and civil rights.
3: Control of all industry and trade.
4: An emphasis on nationalistic pride, loyalty and patriotism.
5: An 'us or them' policy that is not necessarily based upon race.
A-4: I wish to distinguish Fascism from Nazism. Nazism was unique to Hitler's Third Reich, particularly in it's racial policies. I do not recognized the illogical National Socialist positions on race as relevant criticisms of general Fascism.
Once any criticisms of the above are addressed I will move on to the meat of the debate.
|Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:25 pm||
DepricatedZeroPosts: 1319Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:43 amLocation: Cincinnati, OH Gender: Pinecone
Before I begin, an aside: I want to keep personal stuff out of this, naturally, but first and foremost I want to offer a HUGE thank you to Bluejay and everyone else who has been incredibly understanding about me having some personal issues that have been keeping me too busy/bent to focus on a sound reply. Things are still rough, but they're starting to calm down. I apologize that it's taken much longer than I had anticipated to get to this. I felt it would be a disservice to Bluejay and everyone here for me to give a half-cocked, rushed response.
To begin with, I accept your definitions as stated with no objections.
My stance will be the counterpoint, that Fascism is counter to the moral purpose of government and is therefore not viable or capable of maintaining a stable, peaceful and prosperous society.
Some terms I use may differ from their dictionary definition. I do not have this mapped out so I will clarify when I come to them.
I'll be perfectly honest, I've not done a formal debate in this style before. I will turn the floor over to Bluejay to begin. I have no objections.
And death is forever
And does forever have a life to call its own?
Don't give me an answer cause you only know
As much as I know
Unless you've been there once
And I hardly think so
Green Day - One of My Lies
|Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:24 am||
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male
I haven't formally debated much myself. I'm writing this more in a casual or conversation style with less emphasis on citations, basically as a structured discourse on this subject. We both have things going on outside of LoR so the simpler the better.
I'll post my points in sets to avoid huge posts and I propose we discuss each section before moving on to the next claim I have. I'll post a claim, we take turns on it and give our points and then move on to my next claim when we both have made our cases, unless you object to this idea.
Claim 1: Fascism allows for internal control and stability:
1: Centralized Authority:
I: Centralized authority reduces bureaucracy, increases efficiency. Mandated goals are directly addressed more quickly than in a system involving chambers of representatives.
II: Class system: The inner class of people that are involved in the government must be segregated from the common people. Status incentives discourage inner dissent.
2: Command Economy(Definition: An economy controlled by the State):
I: Direct control of industry results in a dedication of resources and industrial capacity to the State.
II: Depending on resources and population the people may more fairly be provided with goods and services on equal terms. This allows for material appeasement of the people in order to garner support for the State.
*Allows for fast mobilization of a war economy in time of crisis.
I: A propaganda state combined with a dedicated secret police can isolate and eliminate resistance and discourage dissenting thought. The people must be kept afraid of some threat and the State must be presented as the protector from that threat. The people must be kept confident in their government as a source of prosperity and the only thing standing between them and destruction by outside threats.
II: Total immersion from childhood can, in the space of one to two generations, create an entirely indoctrinated populace. Secret police ensure that individuals that know of pre-fascism times keep it to themselves.
III: Propaganda that instills the atmosphere of external threat during peacetime motivates the people into wartime efficiency and patriotism without the casualties and spending of war. The state of paranoia leads to self policing by the people against dissenters. This benefits both the pacification of the people and the economy.
I: A fascist state is a stable state. A centralized authority ensures a focused direction for the government. A government class controls the common class, both are otherwise segregated. A command economy ensures an efficient use of resources and the ability of the state to devote its GDP to material appeasement, rationing or military support in situations of crisis. Employment and material appeasement keeps the people from being aimless or resentful due to poverty. Propaganda keeps the people in a state of believing they have no good reason to not support their government and keeps them afraid of outside influence. A secret police identifies and neutralizes dissent that could undermine the propaganda. In other words, a pacified people under supervision by police and under a centralized authority creates a climate hostile to dissent or civil conflict.
|Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:28 pm||