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Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

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Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus
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DustniteUser avatarPosts: 493Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 9:11 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote: Is it really that hard for you people to understand that it is possible to speak without being spoken to?


I don't know, what other voices in your head do you talk to? I like invoking the spirit of Larry Czonka
"But this is irrelevant because in either case, whether a god exists or not, whether your God (with a capital G) exists or not, it doesn't matter. We both are, in either case, evolved apes. " - Nesslig20
Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:16 pm
Steelmage99
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Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:
Is it really that hard for you people to understand that it is possible to speak without being spoken to?


In that case i speak a lot to Joe Pesci. He seems to get things done a lot better than your god. (RIP George Carlin)
Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:32 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3104Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Steelmage99 wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:
Is it really that hard for you people to understand that it is possible to speak without being spoken to?


In that case i speak a lot to Joe Pesci. He seems to get things done a lot better than your god. (RIP George Carlin)


:lol:

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Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:24 pm
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LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2916Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

I like seeing that this thread is now about being able to communicate with imaginary beings. It's good when theists come along and raise the level of discussion

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Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:24 am
thenexttodie
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Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:It seems to me, that the Bible gives an account of the first and last time God ever spoke to anyone. This is consistent with my understanding of God's nature and reasons for him actually speaking to a certain few people.

So that doesn't really answer the question.

SpecialFrog wrote:Are you saying that the only people to whom God has spoken are the authors of the Bible (or characters in the Bible to whom God speaks)? This implies all other claims of this nature (such as made by alleged prophets of other gods, Joan of Arc, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, all the Republican presidential candidates, etc.) are false.
Yes.

SpecialFrog wrote:If so, this still imples that a majority of claims that your God has spoken to someone are still false.
I have never claimed this.

SpecialFrog wrote:But if you want we can define a special class of "biblical claims of God speaking to someone". Would you include authors of apocryphal gospels in this? What about books that are in the Orthodox cannon? What about the author or authors of the Pauline epistles not written by Paul (which includes at least four letters and possibly as many as seven)?
Why should I do that?


SpecialFrog wrote:And do you agree that the claim "God spoke to Moses" can only be true if Moses actually existed?
Yes. And now I expect you will make a failing effort to prove Moses never existed.

thenexttodie wrote:We have 60 some other books of the Bible, which you could to study in order to determine whether or not Pauls teachings really came from God. I believe they do. Lots of other people do not.

SpecialFrog wrote:How does studying the Bible tell us if Paul's teaching came from God? How can we tell if any of the Bible really came from a god?

Because it makes perfect sense.
Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:56 am
DustniteUser avatarPosts: 493Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 9:11 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:If so, this still imples that a majority of claims that your God has spoken to someone are still false.
I have never claimed this.


That's why he said imply moron. It follows from the question you just answered in the affirmative to.

thenexttodie wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:How does studying the Bible tell us if Paul's teaching came from God? How can we tell if any of the Bible really came from a god?

Because it makes perfect sense.


We have different criteria on what makes perfect sense, but I guess it would when you start with a conclusion and try to work your way backwards. The mental gymnastics you have displayed on this thread and other threads is absolutely stunning.
"But this is irrelevant because in either case, whether a god exists or not, whether your God (with a capital G) exists or not, it doesn't matter. We both are, in either case, evolved apes. " - Nesslig20
Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:52 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2718Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
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Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:48 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2916Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up

Handwritten Draft Of King James Bible Discovered: Reveals No ‘Divine Powers’

Kindest regards,

James


Looks interesting, thanks :) I will have a read when I get the chance (probably not for a couple of days) and post my thoughts (if I have any pertinent ones).

Happy whatever it is you are celebrating :)
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Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:49 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2718Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Greetings,

Thanks - here's one more for you:

What did Jesus really look like?

Assuming, of course, he actually existed.

As a humanist, I'm not actually celebrating anything. The shortest day has already come and gone.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:46 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2916Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Thanks - here's one more for you:

What did Jesus really look like?

Assuming, of course, he actually existed.

As a humanist, I'm not actually celebrating anything. The shortest day has already come and gone.

Kindest regards,

James

I'll be celebrating a long weekend off work :)

I saw that article previously. I find it a little irksome that it is being touted as what Jesus really looked like. It's a reconstruction of someone from the area that Jesus might have lived at the time he might have lived. I tells us no more of what Jesus looked like than looking at my neighbour tells you what I look like...

But it is interesting when taken out of that sensationalist context.



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Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:03 pm
thenexttodie
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Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up


A conspiracy argument. It was all a hoax. It's all lies and forgeries. Yawn.

Dragan Glas wrote:Handwritten Draft Of King James Bible Discovered: Reveals No ‘Divine Powers’


Way to knock down a straw man.
Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:45 pm
thenexttodie
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Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

So, where's SpecialFrog? Normally he replies instantly without thinking. I guess he's probably busy celebrating the birth of Jesus somewhere with his family. I bet he hates that.
Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:50 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2718Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Greetings,

thenexttodie wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up

A conspiracy argument. It was all a hoax. It's all lies and forgeries. Yawn.

It's more a case of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of "Jesus" than an out-and-out lie.

thenexttodie wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Handwritten Draft Of King James Bible Discovered: Reveals No ‘Divine Powers’

Way to knock down a straw man.

What "straw man"?

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:24 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2444Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:So, where's SpecialFrog? Normally he replies instantly without thinking. I guess he's probably busy celebrating the birth of Jesus somewhere with his family. I bet he hates that.


Lol, sure, because non-believers are so busy walking around hating that over-commericalized gift-fest that comes around one year, which really proves the existence of Jesus. Just like Wednesday proves the existence of Odin.

Oh, I bet you must hate every Wednesday!
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Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:20 am
Steelmage99
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Posts: 76Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:So, where's SpecialFrog? Normally he replies instantly without thinking. I guess he's probably busy celebrating the birth of Jesus somewhere with his family. I bet he hates that.


Do you mean in the same way that you have spent the last few days being busy celebrating the winter solstice?
Last edited by Steelmage99 on Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:04 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3104Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:So, where's SpecialFrog? Normally he replies instantly without thinking. I guess he's probably busy celebrating the birth of Jesus somewhere with his family. I bet he hates that.


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Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:47 am
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SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:Are you saying that the only people to whom God has spoken are the authors of the Bible (or characters in the Bible to whom God speaks)? This implies all other claims of this nature (such as made by alleged prophets of other gods, Joan of Arc, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, all the Republican presidential candidates, etc.) are false.
Yes.

SpecialFrog wrote:If so, this still imples that a majority of claims that your God has spoken to someone are still false.
I have never claimed this.

As others have noted, it is a direct consequence of what you have said.

The group of people who claim God has spoken to them = (group of people to whom God has spoken) + (group of people to whom God has not spoken though they claim He has). By your own statements, the second group is larger, making the bold statement above something to which you have agreed.

thenexttodie wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:But if you want we can define a special class of "biblical claims of God speaking to someone". Would you include authors of apocryphal gospels in this? What about books that are in the Orthodox cannon? What about the author or authors of the Pauline epistles not written by Paul (which includes at least four letters and possibly as many as seven)?
Why should I do that?

If you don't accept that "people who claim God has spoken to them" is the correct reference class to use for considering prior probability than you may wish to define another one, which is not unreasonable.

As an aside, do you consider the authors of the Pauline epistles not written by Paul to have been spoken to by God? Or any of the gnostic gospel authors?

SpecialFrog wrote:And do you agree that the claim "God spoke to Moses" can only be true if Moses actually existed?

thenexttodie wrote:Yes. And now I expect you will make a failing effort to prove Moses never existed.

To some extent, I don't have to. It is the overwhelming scholarly consensus at this point. That link has a brief summary of the evidence if you are actually interested.

thenexttodie wrote:We have 60 some other books of the Bible, which you could to study in order to determine whether or not Pauls teachings really came from God. I believe they do. Lots of other people do not.

SpecialFrog wrote:How does studying the Bible tell us if Paul's teaching came from God? How can we tell if any of the Bible really came from a god?

thenexttodie wrote:Because it makes perfect sense.

You can construct a narrative that is perfectly consistent with all known evidence without it actually being true. That's how conspiracy theorists and pseudo-historians operate. At best, what you claim "makes perfect sense" is not contradicted by available evidence.

So what? Without evidence that "the Bible comes from a god" is the most probable hypothesis it doesn't matter how pleasing you find the claim.

Here is another hypothesis: the biblical texts were written by humans who had no knowledge not available to humans of the time and place in which the text originated.

Both of our hypotheses could be true, but the evidence required to establish mine is much, much lower.

thenexttodie wrote:So, where's SpecialFrog? Normally he replies instantly without thinking. I guess he's probably busy celebrating the birth of Jesus somewhere with his family.

Even scholars who think Jesus was historical agree he wasn't born on December 25th.
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Last edited by SpecialFrog on Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:37 pm
thenexttodie
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Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up

thenexttodie wrote:A conspiracy argument. It was all a hoax. It's all lies and forgeries. Yawn.

Dragan Glas wrote:It's more a case of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of "Jesus" than an out-and-out lie.
I see. Did you have a nice time celebrating Jesus's Birthday with the rest of the world?

Dragan Glas wrote:Handwritten Draft Of King James Bible Discovered: Reveals No ‘Divine Powers’

thenexttodie"Way to knock down a straw man.[/quote]
[quote="Dragan Glas wrote:
What "straw man"?

Kindest regards,

James


Actually I take that back. It seems that there are some Christians that believe the King James Bible was just handed down to us from heaven by God. I, myself, do not believe this.
Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:51 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2444Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

thenexttodie wrote: I see. Did you have a nice time celebrating Jesus's Birthday with the rest of the world?


Yes, Christmas Eve was this Thursday. Thursday. Day of Thor. How was that for you?


thenexttodie wrote:Actually I take that back. It seems that there are some Christians that believe the King James Bible was just handed down to us from heaven by God. I, myself, do not believe this.


Yeah, because THAT would be totally dumb, right?
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Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:10 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2718Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus

Greetings,

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:So, where's SpecialFrog? Normally he replies instantly without thinking. I guess he's probably busy celebrating the birth of Jesus somewhere with his family. I bet he hates that.


Image

"Cultural appropriation" anyone!? :lol:

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:35 am
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