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Why I'm a Deist.

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Why I'm a Deist.
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

hackenslash wrote:
tuxbox wrote:I know Hackenslash's position on the matter of Agnosticism and that is it is not a valid position.


I've never said that. I've said it isn't a position on the existence of deities.


My apologies! I misunderstood you. :)
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:26 am
surreptitious57Posts: 211Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:09 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

The difference between atheism and agnosticism is that atheism pertains to belief and agnosticism pertains to knowledge. So I myself
am an agnostic atheist which means that while I do not believe in God I cannot actually disprove his existence. I am convinced beyond
reasonable doubt that he does not exist but not however beyond all doubt. And no one regardless of their position on his existence can
prove or disprove God. However theists will usually try to move the goalposts by using emotional reasoning though the burden of proof
required is not one which they can actually meet. Since if they could it would be a fact and so consequently every one would be a theist

A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:53 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

surreptitious57 wrote:The difference between atheism and agnosticism is that atheism pertains to belief and agnosticism pertains to knowledge. So I myself
am an agnostic atheist which means that while I do not believe in God I cannot actually disprove his existence. I am convinced beyond
reasonable doubt that he does not exist but not however beyond all doubt. And no one regardless of their position on his existence can
prove or disprove God. However theists will usually try to move the goalposts by using emotional reasoning though the burden of proof
required is not one which they can actually meet. Since if they could it would be a fact and so consequently every one would be a theist


Nice response. However, I have a couple of questions. One, your position seems to be that you're pretty certain that a deity/creator does not exists, so where does you agnosticism come in. Two, what is your definition of agnosticism? Also, I disagree with Hackenslah that agnosticism cannot be a position when it comes to the exists of a deity/creator. We currently do not have the knowledge to determine if one exists but I'm not certain beyond a reasonable doubt that one doesn't exists, then that seems that agnosticism is a valid positon.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:46 pm
hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2199Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

tuxbox wrote:Also, I disagree with Hackenslah that agnosticism cannot be a position when it comes to the exists of a deity/creator. We currently do not have the knowledge to determine if one exists but I'm not certain beyond a reasonable doubt that one doesn't exists, then that seems that agnosticism is a valid positon.


Then you're still missing my point entirely.

As surreptitious57 has ably pointed out, agnosticism pertains to knowledge. As Huxley coined the term, it's the proposition that knowledge of god is not possible (not that we don't possess it; I hope I've already given sufficient reason to dismiss that as a definition). It has exactly nothing to do with whether or not a deity exists, or whether or not one believes in such an entity, it only pertains to the possibility that knowledge of such an entity can be had. An agnostic is specifically one who thinks that knowledge is not possible. As it pertains to deities at all, it can only serve as a qualifier. If you think that knowledge of a deity is not possible, you're agnostic. If you hold that position yet, at the same time, believe that a deity exists, you're an agnostic theist.

The over-riding point is that agnosticism is NOT any sort of middle ground between belief in a deity and non-belief, because no such middle ground exists; it's a true dichotomy.
Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:42 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

hackenslash wrote:
Then you're still missing my point entirely.

As surreptitious57 has ably pointed out, agnosticism pertains to knowledge. As Huxley coined the term, it's the proposition that knowledge of god is not possible (not that we don't possess it; I hope I've already given sufficient reason to dismiss that as a definition). It has exactly nothing to do with whether or not a deity exists, or whether or not one believes in such an entity, it only pertains to the possibility that knowledge of such an entity can be had. An agnostic is specifically one who thinks that knowledge is not possible. As it pertains to deities at all, it can only serve as a qualifier. If you think that knowledge of a deity is not possible, you're agnostic. If you hold that position yet, at the same time, believe that a deity exists, you're an agnostic theist.

The over-riding point is that agnosticism is NOT any sort of middle ground between belief in a deity and non-belief, because no such middle ground exists; it's a true dichotomy.


So if it is not a middle ground as you say and I don't consider myself a theist, since I do not believe in an intervening deity, then how does not make me an agnostic theist? If anything it would make me an agnostic deist. would it not? Or does that make zero sense? That being said, I'm not sure of anything when it pertains to a creator/deity at this point. All the arguments in this thread have made me rethink my position. However, I'm not sure if that makes me an atheist or not. Which I do not have a problem with that label. As of now, I'm completely confused.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:05 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3144Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

tuxbox wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Then you're still missing my point entirely.

As surreptitious57 has ably pointed out, agnosticism pertains to knowledge. As Huxley coined the term, it's the proposition that knowledge of god is not possible (not that we don't possess it; I hope I've already given sufficient reason to dismiss that as a definition). It has exactly nothing to do with whether or not a deity exists, or whether or not one believes in such an entity, it only pertains to the possibility that knowledge of such an entity can be had. An agnostic is specifically one who thinks that knowledge is not possible. As it pertains to deities at all, it can only serve as a qualifier. If you think that knowledge of a deity is not possible, you're agnostic. If you hold that position yet, at the same time, believe that a deity exists, you're an agnostic theist.

The over-riding point is that agnosticism is NOT any sort of middle ground between belief in a deity and non-belief, because no such middle ground exists; it's a true dichotomy.


So if it is not a middle ground as you say and I don't consider myself a theist, since I do not believe in an intervening deity, then how does not make me an agnostic theist? If anything it would make me an agnostic deist. would it not? Or does that make zero sense? That being said, I'm not sure of anything when it pertains to a creator/deity at this point. All the arguments in this thread have made me rethink my position. However, I'm not sure if that makes me an atheist or not. Which I do not have a problem with that label. As of now, I'm completely confused.


Do you believe in a god (this is a "yes" or "no" question)?
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Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:17 am
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Do you believe in a god (this is a "yes" or "no" question)?


It is not as easy, as yes or no. I am 100% certain that a theistic god doesn't exist. However, I'm not 100% certain that a deistic creator does not exist.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:29 am
hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2199Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

I typed up 500 words in response, and then realised that I was waffling. I'll come back to this later but, for the moment, it's sufficient to say that this is a problem of nomenclature. It needs unpacking properly, which is what I started to do, but I really need to be careful about how I phrase my response to avoid ambiguity or equivocation.

I'll come back to it on the morrow.
Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:33 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3144Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

tuxbox wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Do you believe in a god (this is a "yes" or "no" question)?


It is not as easy, as yes or no. I am 100% certain that a theistic god doesn't exist. However, I'm not 100% certain that a deistic creator does not exist.


Certainty has nothing to do with this. This is about what you believe. For example: a deistic god could exist, but I would still be an atheist until such an entity was shown to exist (i.e. I lack belief in such a thing). On the other hand, if a god does not exist, but I still believed, that would make me a theist (i.e. I have a belief in such a thing).

Now, do you believe such an entity exists?
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
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Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:51 am
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Certainty has nothing to do with this. This is about what you believe. For example: a deistic god could exist, but I would still be an atheist until such an entity was shown to exist (i.e. I lack belief in such a thing). On the other hand, if a god does not exist, but I still believed, that would make me a theist (i.e. I have a belief in such a thing).

Now, do you believe such an entity exists?


I do not at this time believe that a creator exists.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:55 am
InfernoContributorUser avatarPosts: 2298Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pmLocation: Vienna, Austria Gender: Cake

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

tuxbox wrote:I do not at this time believe that a creator exists.


Then by definition you are an agnostic atheist. Welcome to the club.
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." ― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I shall achieve my objectives through the power... of Science!" --LessWrong
Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:11 pm
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

tuxbox wrote:I do not at this time believe that a creator exists.

Kind of a "gotcha" moment.
It would be good to understand what makes evolution work, or why there needs to be our universe.
And the idea there is something actually driving it does give a degree of comfort.
The problem is that based on what we know "life" has a relatively narrow window of opportunity in cosmic time, in a miniscule fraction of the universe, before the universe disavows it.
I personally cannot make sense of that, especially if one wants to invoke a "creator". What purpose would such a creator be fulfilling?
At the level of "purpose" I can find nothing which makes sense from our perspective. I am not sure that means that there is no purpose but, rather, if there were to be a purpose, it is not one which accords "life" any special significance.
Now that I am this site, maybe I will find others with better ideas!.
Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:54 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3144Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

Inferno wrote:
tuxbox wrote:I do not at this time believe that a creator exists.


Then by definition you are an agnostic atheist. Welcome to the club.


As Inferno points out, that would make you an atheist by definition. However, I understand why one might not want to adopt that label for oneself. To be perfectly honest, I could not careless what you label yourself. Language exists to serve us, and the moment it gets in the way of our understanding each other, the basics if what we believe (or not) should be spelled out to help facilitate communication. Everything else is getting in the way of the conversation.
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
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Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:21 am
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hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2199Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

^^This.
Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:22 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Why I'm a Deist.

Inferno wrote:
tuxbox wrote:I do not at this time believe that a creator exists.


Then by definition you are an agnostic atheist. Welcome to the club.


lol, I guess I am, but I really do not care what my label is anymore. I also came out of the closet and told all my Christian family and friends that I no longer believe in a creator/god. I am content with my current position on the matter.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:24 am
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