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Evidence for/against YEC

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Evidence for/against YEC
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Greetings,

tuxbox wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Not to disagree with Kaku but I'm not sure that "caused" is the right word - the Higgs boson's properties are fundamental to how/why our space-time "bubble" is the way it is.

Here is Kaku talking about the Higgs Boson starting the BB.

https://youtu.be/XWzPmK8KdL0?t=12m25s

Granted this is just his opinion on what occurred and I have also heard him talk a about a Multi-Verse as well. Which is the point I was trying to with JRChadwick, that there are competing theories out there, not just one.

Dragan Glas wrote:It's inconceivable that a state of Nature that resulted in our space-time "bubble" coming into existence hasn't caused other "bubbles" - if it can happen once, what's to stop it happening multiple times? Similarly to biogenesis - if it can happen on Earth, it can happen anywhere.

If Dark Matter is behaving like a known particle, it's fairly likely that it's made up totally or mostly of that particle.

Kindest regards,

James

How is it inconceivable? This is the only bubble that we know of, but I do believe it is a possibility. However, I have not seen conclusive evidence that is case.

If it can blow one "bubble", it can blow many.

It makes no sense that the state would occur that resulted in one "bubble", and then the state doesn't cause any others to arise.

tuxbox wrote:As far as the DM particle is concerned, what particle does it behave like? How can we know this if DM is not detectable yet?

Unknown, as of yet.

Dark Matter can be detected through observing how it behaves - it has effects, and thus its properties can be deduced.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:46 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

If it can blow one "bubble", it can blow many.


What is blowing the bubbles. This is a rhetorical question. Do need to respond. :)

Dragan Glas wrote:
It makes no sense that the state would occur that resulted in one "bubble", and then the state doesn't cause any others to arise.


Not making sense, does not equal it happened. This universe could have been a freak occurrence.

Dragan Glas wrote:
Unknown, as of yet.

Dark Matter can be detected through observing how it behaves - it has effects, and thus its properties can be deduced.

Kindest regards,

James


I agree DM can be observed which is why I believe it exists, or something exists that we are observing. DM supposedly passes through regular matter and if so it behaves differently to other particles, does it not?
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:02 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

JRChadwick wrote:Waaaaaaaahhh. Somebody call a waaaaambulance.


LMAO, now that is funny! Too bad you were not that funny from the start or maybe we would have gotten along.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:20 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

hackenslash wrote:
I was right about the gluon, but not the graviton.


Actually, the gluon arises from QCD, not any string framework. To my knowledge, only two unique, testable predictions have arisen from any stringy framework, namely supersymmetry, which is beginning to look on extremely shaky ground, and the prediction regarding the energy spectrum of primordial gravitational waves, and we've yet to detect any gravitational waves, let alone primordial ones. It's worth noting that if the B-mode polarisation is reliably observed in the CMBR, a prediction of inflationary theory, then brane-worlds will be falsified.

The idea that there's only one big bang theory is not correct, and any assertion that one of them shows the 'correct' history of the cosmos overlooks some of the core principles of science. No theory is ever proven correct, they merely withstand potential falsification.


Potential falsification? What does not mean? Or is it obvious by the phrase?
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:31 pm
JRChadwickLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 340Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:02 am

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

hackenslash wrote:
JRChadwick wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by multiple big bang theories, there is debate as to the beginning of our universe and it's distant future, but the expansion from a singularity is pretty robust and well supported.


Expansion, yes. Singularity, no. In fact, the authors of the singularity theorem, Hawking and Penrose, both repudiate the conclusion because it doesn't take QM into account, and the singularity is extremely problematic in QM, being an asymptote.

Here's Hawking:

Hawking";p="1895379 wrote:The final result was a joint paper by Penrose and myself in 1970, which at last proved that there must have been a big bang singularity provided only that general relativity is correct and the universe contains as much matter as we observe. There was a lot of opposition to our work, partly from the Russians because of their Marxist belief in scientific determinism, and partly from people who felt that the whole idea of singularities was repugnant and spoiled the beauty of Einstein’s theory. However, one cannot really argue with a mathematical theorem. So in the end our work became generally accepted and nowadays nearly everyone assumes that the universe started with a big bang singularity. It is perhaps ironic that, having changed my mind, [b2]I am now trying to convince other physicists that there was in fact no singularity at the beginning of the universe – as we shall see later, it can disappear once quantum effects are taken into account.[/b2]

Is not this part of the grand unification theory? The attempt to find a theory that can describe both quantum mechanics and the large scale of our universe as a whole?

hackenslash wrote:
I have not heard of anyone who has a theory that is better supported.


Well, the problem is that all models have expansion, which is what the big bang deals with, but it's not just one theory, and indeed, the theory that most people talk about as the big bang is not what it once was, because cosmologists talk about inflationary theory, which is itself an alternative to the classical big bang. The classical big bang has been dead for decades because of unsolvable problems.

The way I have heard the singularity described is a representation of where the mathematical equations of the relevant fields break down and are no longer describe the universe in the state that it was in at that time.

hackenslash wrote:There simply isn't any one theory called 'the big bang theory', it's a group of theories that deal with the expansion of the cosmos, and has exactly nothing to say on origin, because we're limited theoretically to the Planck time, and observationally until the surface of last scattering, which is 380,000 years or so after the Planck time.

That time period you mention is what I have heard described as the period where the fundamental forces completely separated allowing light to travel through the early universe thus making it observable.

Also, that is something I have had to explain to many creationists; the big bang does is not the same theory as the origin of the universe because they were controlled by different mechanisms.

hackenslash wrote:Edit: It's worth reading the 'before the big bang' thread, in which I deal with all the current thinking in cosmology.

I'm on my way out of town for a week, but I will try to read it. Thanks for the info.
Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:54 pm
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JRChadwickLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 340Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:02 am

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

tuxbox wrote:Potential falsification? What does not mean? Or is it obvious by the phrase?

To us it is, not so sure about you. For a theory, or even a hypothesis to be viable, it has to have a means to be falsified. In other words, there has to be a way to disprove it. Want to disprove common decent for example? Find where the taxonomic and phylogenetic trees do not match.

tuxbox wrote:
JRChadwick wrote:Waaaaaaaahhh. Somebody call a waaaaambulance.


LMAO, now that is funny! Too bad you were not that funny from the start or maybe we would have gotten along.

I really don't care.
Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:57 pm
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hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2379Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

JRChadwick wrote:Is not this part of the grand unification theory? The attempt to find a theory that can describe both quantum mechanics and the large scale of our universe as a whole?


Well precisely! If we have no theory that deals with events that dovetail both arenas, then there's no good theory to deal with the singularity.

The way I have heard the singularity described is a representation of where the mathematical equations of the relevant fields break down and are no longer describe the universe in the state that it was in at that time.


Certainly, and in fact that's the rigorous definition of singularity, but it isn't thge popular image of one, which is an area of infinite density and infinite curvature. The point is that we have models on the table that remove the singularity under either definition. Also, because of that rigorous definition, we can hardly say we have a theory in which the cosmos arises from a singularity, because we have no theory to treat such an event. In short, all pre-Planck attempts are thus far empirically equivalent, and there are no front-runners, let alone any single theory.

That time period you mention is what I have heard described as the period where the fundamental forces completely separated allowing light to travel through the early universe thus making it observable.


No, the surface of last scattering is nothing to do with unification. Again, I deal with all of this in the 'before the big bang' thread, so it seems a bit pointless to go over it all again here. What allowed light to travel unimpeded was simply the expansion/cooling to below a certain level. Unification occurred long before this time, somewhere not far from the very beginning.

Also, that is something I have had to explain to many creationists; the big bang does is not the same theory as the origin of the universe because they were controlled by different mechanisms.


Well, the big bang was certainly formulated as a theory of cosmic origin, but it fails in that regard, because it can't get to the origin. The mechanisms are still not entirely known, so to say that they were different is probably a bit premature. The best guess is some sort of runaway quantum fluctuation that was taken over by repulsive gravity, but that's not nailed-on.

I'm on my way out of town for a week, but I will try to read it. Thanks for the info.


My pleasure.
Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:23 pm
hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2379Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

tuxbox wrote:Potential falsification? What does not mean? Or is it obvious by the phrase?


This has been covered, but just for super-clarity:

For any model to be scientific, there has top be a way to show that the model is wrong. Indeed, it can be argued that scientific knowledge only progresses by showing that a given model is not correct. This is the only place for 'proof' in science, because it's the only place in science where you have an axiomatically complete system of deductive logic. I covered this in one of the early posts in the 'before the big bang' thread, in which I detailed how falsification works in terms of propositional calculus.
Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:27 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

JRChadwick wrote:
I really don't care.


I never thought you did nor did I expect you to respond to that post. That said, your hostility towards me is and was unwarranted. It takes a lot to piss me off, but one of things I will not stand for is being called a liar or dishonest which you did without any evidence to the contrary. What peaked my interest in this thread is when Dragon Glas made a claim that Nature was eternal. I questioned him on that and that was subject of this argument. If you did not like my inquire into this matter or disliked me for whatever reason, then you did not have to respond. However, you did respond and I would like to know why you responded with such hostility? My skepticism's of everything, including scientific theories are just. Or is skepticism in your book only for everything else other than scientific theories? I make inquires in this forum to learn, to adjust my own positions and think outside of my box. That is the bottom line. Even Hackenslash meets my stupid questions and inquires without being hostile as do most of the other Atheists in this forum. I’m not expecting you to respond to this, but felt the need to put this out on the table.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Greetings,

tuxbox wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

If it can blow one "bubble", it can blow many.

What is blowing the bubbles. This is a rhetorical question. Do need to respond. :)

Dragan Glas wrote:It makes no sense that the state would occur that resulted in one "bubble", and then the state doesn't cause any others to arise.

Not making sense, does not equal it happened. This universe could have been a freak occurrence.

Sense, here, meaning mathematical.

The idea that a state exists that causes just one space-time "bubble" to come into existence doesn't make sense.

tuxbox wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Unknown, as of yet.

Dark Matter can be detected through observing how it behaves - it has effects, and thus its properties can be deduced.

Kindest regards,

James

I agree DM can be observed which is why I believe it exists, or something exists that we are observing. DM supposedly passes through regular matter and if so it behaves differently to other particles, does it not?

From what I've read, Dark Matter appears to behave like pions, which has yet to be confirmed.

Kiindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:01 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Dragan Glas

I'm no longer a skeptic of the Multiverse and I have a better understanding of Dark Matter now. Thanks for your response.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:12 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2956Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Greetings,

Alright, tuxbox. :)

Back on topic...

French teen finds 560,000 year-old tooth

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:27 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Back on topic...

French teen finds 560,000 year-old tooth

Kindest regards,

James


Sweet!
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:31 am
Steelmage99Posts: 171Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Alright, tuxbox. :)

Back on topic...

French teen finds 560,000 year-old tooth

Kindest regards,

James


Of course, that won't help one bit to convince the classic radical evangelical Christian because they don't accept the dating methods used. :)
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:08 pm
hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2379Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

They don't accept any dating methods, because none of them can get a date. :lol:
Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:17 pm
JRChadwickLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 340Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:02 am

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

tuxbox wrote:
JRChadwick wrote:
I really don't care.


I never thought you did nor did I expect you to respond to that post. That said, your hostility towards me is and was unwarranted. It takes a lot to piss me off, but one of things I will not stand for is being called a liar or dishonest which you did without any evidence to the contrary. What peaked my interest in this thread is when Dragon Glas made a claim that Nature was eternal. I questioned him on that and that was subject of this argument. If you did not like my inquire into this matter or disliked me for whatever reason, then you did not have to respond. However, you did respond and I would like to know why you responded with such hostility? My skepticism's of everything, including scientific theories are just. Or is skepticism in your book only for everything else other than scientific theories? I make inquires in this forum to learn, to adjust my own positions and think outside of my box. That is the bottom line. Even Hackenslash meets my stupid questions and inquires without being hostile as do most of the other Atheists in this forum. I’m not expecting you to respond to this, but felt the need to put this out on the table.

You really think that was hostile? I thought I was relatively kind. I admit I don't take kindly to P.R.A.T.T.s like what you said about the definition of a scientific theory. I think you got upset because I made you feel foolish with your comments about the meaning of eternal, more than any dickishness on my part. I do not know much about quantum physics, that's why I try not to make any strong claims about it and when Hackenslash corrected a misstatement I made, I accepted it. When I corrected your statement about graphing something "eternal" on a 2-d Cartesian plain, you responded with: :roll:

Speaking of which; in my last response, I should have said a singularity, not the singularity.
Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:33 pm
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

JRChadwick,

This thread is back on track, kind of. and that is where it should remain. If you would like to carry this any further via PM, then I am game. If not, then I am done responding to you in this thread. Take care.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:48 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:49 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2952Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Why pretend that such idiocy as YEC is even up for debate?

It's really not.

Engaging with it legitimises it. There is no debate, the idea that the world is 6000 years old is a childish and ridiculous fantasy.
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:04 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3338Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Evidence for/against YEC

Laurens wrote:Why pretend that such idiocy as YEC is even up for debate?

It's really not.

Engaging with it legitimises it. There is no debate, the idea that the world is 6000 years old is a childish and ridiculous fantasy.


Well, we cannot just ignore it, that strategy was tried in the 80s and 90s here in the U.S. What did it get us, but a whole political party using science denialism in their platform. It seems obvious to me that one major reason science denialism is so ramped here is because scientists stepped away from the public with the thought that "if people want to learn real science they will come to us." That did not happen. Thus, my generation is having to step in and promote science on social media since the denialism has gotten so bad that major networks have shows looking for Bigfoot, "lost" mythical cities, and aliens (with hints of young earth creationism sprinkled into all those).
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