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Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

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Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?
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he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3222Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

I have limited time at the moment, but I submit this thread for your reading pleasure. It appears that most of the issues itsdemtitans has already brought up were addressed on that thread.
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Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:53 pm
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2860Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:12 am
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Study shows moral judgement influenced by locality, time and authority figures

Kindest regards,

James

Ciao
The issue is of "judgement" in the study, and not action.
The study indicated that moral outrage was common for acts which were not "good", so there seems to be a good number of universally accepted moral standards.
Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:07 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2860Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

Greetings,

red wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Study shows moral judgement influenced by locality, time and authority figures

Kindest regards,

James

Ciao
The issue is of "judgement" in the study, and not action.
The study indicated that moral outrage was common for acts which were not "good", so there seems to be a good number of universally accepted moral standards.

Which is the point I'm making: there's no "absolute (standard of) morality" - it's all relative.

Even in the case of religions - since they all promote their own "absolute (standard of) morality" according to their "god(s)" - it's still all relative.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:58 am
itsdemtitansBloggerUser avatarPosts: 698Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:36 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Study shows moral judgement influenced by locality, time and authority figures

Kindest regards,

James


Finally got my computer again!

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.
Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:24 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:I have limited time at the moment, but I submit this thread for your reading pleasure. It appears that most of the issues itsdemtitans has already brought up were addressed on that thread.


Morality was not touched on in that thread. ;) I did not bring it up because morality stems from social evolution. So I think this is a valid thread, even though it may have been a topic of an earlier thread that I am not aware of.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:48 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3222Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

tuxbox wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:I have limited time at the moment, but I submit this thread for your reading pleasure. It appears that most of the issues itsdemtitans has already brought up were addressed on that thread.


Morality was not touched on in that thread. ;) I did not bring it up because morality stems from social evolution. So I think this is a valid thread, even though it may have been a topic of an earlier thread that I am not aware of.


Itsdemtitans brought up morality and design in DNA. The latter was addressed in that thread.
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Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:08 am
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Itsdemtitans brought up morality and design in DNA. The latter was addressed in that thread.


Sorry, it just seemed you thought this thread was a waste of time because of a similar thread. My apologies! ;)
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:29 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3222Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

tuxbox wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Itsdemtitans brought up morality and design in DNA. The latter was addressed in that thread.


Sorry, it just seemed you thought this thread was a waste of time because of a similar thread. My apologies! ;)


Oh no. This thread is not a waste if time, I am just short on it. However, I did make arguments against top down design in nature in that thread, which would have been pretty much the same arguments I would have made here. There is not enough hours in the day to make those arguments over again.
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Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:36 am
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tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:Oh no. This thread is not a waste if time, I am just short on it. However, I did make arguments against top down design in nature in that thread, which would have been pretty much the same arguments I would have made here. There is not enough hours in the day to make those arguments over again.


Understood!
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:51 am
itsdemtitansBloggerUser avatarPosts: 698Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:36 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

First, I apologize it took me so long to get back to this thread. I recently went through a bout of Strep Throat, and the antibiotics didn't do much to help ease it. Worst week and a half in my life...so that's where I've been, and in between short comas on the couch I tried, somewhat, to think of a response to you, Hackenslash. Hope it has some substance.

Also you wiped the floor with my DNA argument, so I'll just try to respond to your points on morality from a theist perspective, even though I see it's a pretty weak argument to begin with :/



hackenslash wrote:If Genesis is purely allegorical, and you accept evolution, especially the place of humanity within the evolutionary paradigm, then we have an issue from a Christian perspective. The problem is this:

If Genesis is allegory, then Adam and Eve didn't exist. This also gels well with evolution, in that there could have been no 'first humans' (evolution is a population phenomenon). With that in mind, how are we to address original sin? Without original sin, what is it that we need original sin for?


There's many interpretations of just what original sin actually is. One that offers a potential solution for the question you pose is known as the Existential Interpretation. It's a purely allegorical framework where Adam and Eve are symbolic figures that represent every person (and indeed, in Hebrew Adam simply means human being, so it could be plausible Adam and Eve represent "every person"). The Genesis story and Original sin are an allegory for us making a choice of God over self as we become self aware. Pretty sure this is the main view within contemporary theology. This choice, which we continually make each day of our lives, is one in which we ultimately place ourselves at the center of existence, in which we depend on ourselves instead of God. This is the Fall, and is something that happens again and again everyday as we constitute our own self-existence.

So there is an allegorical framework out there that seems to work, although it has problems of it's own. Each of the ones I've read about does.

So maybe it's all bullshit? :lol:


Btw, did you mean 'without original sin, what did we need Jesus for?" Sorry, but that last bit didn't really make sense to me, so it was kind of hard to answer.



hackenslash wrote:Well, if morality is predicated on the commandments of a single individual, regardless of said individual's divinity, it's even more arbitrary.


So I've realized.

hackenslash wrote:Really, though, this entire line of argument simply overlooks what morality is. I don't want to give the game away here, but I'd venture that you haven't actually worked out for yourself what morality is, and have simply gone with what you've been told (I don't mean that as any sort of slight, simply a statement of my assessment).


Well, now I have, and I'll continue too. Dragan Glass' linked paper is a good start, I'll probably spend a while pouring over the scientific literature.

hackenslash wrote:Ask yourself this question seriously. What is morality really?


My position has pretty much fallen too morality is centered around the observable effects of actions on others and is based on common sense.

Does it exclude God from the picture entirely? Not really. Is he necessary for morality to exist? Nope. So I realize it's a poor argument.

hackenslash wrote:If there's no lawgiver, how can there be law?


Oy, that sounds like ol' Ravi Zachariahs. Never did like him much, probably cause he made the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument.

hackenslash wrote:Right? Wrong? Are you sure? Is your right the same as mine? Your wrong?


I don't know. It seems to me all humans share a basic moral compass, but I'm not sure where exactly the line is drawn and subjectiveness from upbringing / culture comes into play.

It has made me come up with an experiment of sorts, although I'd never carry it out. If one was to take ten children, around the age of three, and raise them isolated from the rest of the world, with only lab technicians coming in to teach them basics like reading and writing, and to feed them and stuff, we could observe their behaviors and look for that imbedded moral sense. Would all of the kids grow up and, as they develop, agree that say stealing toys from one another is wrong? Or food? Or harming each other? Or would it turn into an absolute free for all? I'd be curious to know
Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:28 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

itsdemtitans wrote:Btw, did you mean 'without original sin, what did we need Jesus for?" Sorry, but that last bit didn't really make sense to me, so it was kind of hard to answer.


I hope this is not derailing the thread, but why would a God/Creator entity create humans with the knowledge that they were going to sin, then punish them for sinning, then send Himself to earth in the form of a human to be killed to cleanse us of our sins but only if we except Him into our hearts and follow his teachings? Then punish the ones that do not believe He existed in the first place due to lack of evidence?

Now just my thoughts on morality. It is my position that morality is based partially on culture and the rest is due to how we evolved. For example, Western morality is different than Middle Eastern morality, and don't get me started on past civilizations, which some of them were pretty barbaric. And remember it wasn't considered immoral to own slaves not too long ago. :)
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:06 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2860Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

Greetings,

Personally, I'd place evolution as the backbone of morality, with culture as window-dressing.

As regards the proverbial "Adam and Eve" references in Genesis...

Depending on context, Adam can either be translated as "Man(kind)" or "a man", Eve means "(red) earth", which may be a reference to haematite.

Thus, two key verses could be translated as:

"God created Man(kind) and/from (red) earth".

And...

"A man had two sons, Cain and Abel".

Which throws the idea of a literal "Adam and Eve" out the window.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:18 am
itsdemtitansBloggerUser avatarPosts: 698Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:36 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

tuxbox wrote:
I hope this is not derailing the thread, but why would a God/Creator entity create humans with the knowledge that they were going to sin, then punish them for sinning


If you give your child a choice between broccoli and cake, it's probably safe to say with 100% certainty they'll take the cake (pun). But just because you know their choice ahead of time doesn't remove their making that choice.

Not sure if that's a good analogy or not. Of course, it all hinges on God being truly omniscient, or to what extent. I'd assume God doesn't know the future, the biblical narrative sure comes off that way.


tuxbox wrote: then send Himself to earth in the form of a human to be killed to cleanse us of our sins


The way it's been explained to me is Jesus was needed to bridge the gap between us and God, and that gap is by us not living up to his standard (or nature, depends on who you talk too). Of course, God applying this standard seems pretty arbitrary which is the thing I'm trying to figure out an answer too.

tugbox wrote:but only if we except Him into our hearts and follow his teachings?


Basically. I understand that's confusing (or maybe stupid to you), I'm a little iffy on it too. I've never really been given an answer for questions like "What about people who never hear the gospel?" other than fundie nonsense. It's an issue I've never overcome.

tuxbox wrote:Then punish the ones that do not believe He existed in the first place due to lack of evidence?


Well, I fall into the annihilationist camp so I don't believe in the whole eternal punishment thing. But I don't think he punishes people in any sense for not believing based on evidence. He simply casts judgement on sin (which brings us back to the issue of him setting an arbitrary standard), regardless of your belief. I'm not a theologian so I can't really give a great answer, sorry.

tuxbox wrote: just my thoughts on morality. It is my position that morality is based partially on culture and the rest is due to how we evolved. For example, Western morality is different than Middle Eastern morality, and don't get me started on past civilizations, which some of them were pretty barbaric. And remember it wasn't considered immoral to own slaves not too long ago. :)


My whole thing is that the core basics i.e. don't kill, steal, etc. are inborn. But that has many problems of it's own. Case in point, if it did come from God why did most of humanity not seem to think it was wrong owning others as property?

I really don't like the morality argument anymore :lol:
Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:31 pm
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

itsdemtitans wrote:Not sure if that's a good analogy or not. Of course, it all hinges on God being truly omniscient, or to what extent. I'd assume God doesn't know the future, the biblical narrative sure comes off that way.
[/quote]What makes you think there is only one god?
If there were to be something beyond nature the only argument against multiple entities would be Occam's razor. But there being a less than "good" god makes more sense than a perfect god given the shambles of a universe we have which is mostly lifeless and destined for oblivion. Maybe we got a trainee god for our universe and her next one will be an improvement!
Anyhoos, just putting it out there (way out, maybe).

(Edited to correct the attribution of this quote - Apologies Tutbox)
Last edited by red on Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:08 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

itsdemtitans wrote:

If you give your child a choice between broccoli and cake, it's probably safe to say with 100% certainty they'll take the cake (pun). But just because you know their choice ahead of time doesn't remove their making that choice.


That argument might work if there is not omniscient God, which if there is a God I do not believe it is omniscient.

itsdemtitans wrote:
Not sure if that's a good analogy or not. Of course, it all hinges on God being truly omniscient, or to what extent. I'd assume God doesn't know the future, the biblical narrative sure comes off that way.


I'm glad you do not explain away the fact that the Bible seems to indicate that it is not omniscient. Too many or Christians put their head in the sand on this issue, and make excuses.

itsdemtitans wrote:
The way it's been explained to me is Jesus was needed to bridge the gap between us and God, and that gap is by us not living up to his standard (or nature, depends on who you talk too). Of course, God applying this standard seems pretty arbitrary which is the thing I'm trying to figure out an answer too.


I hope you keep searching for the truth. I know I am. :)

itsdemtitans wrote:
Basically. I understand that's confusing (or maybe stupid to you), I'm a little iffy on it too. I've never really been given an answer for questions like "What about people who never hear the gospel?" other than fundie nonsense. It's an issue I've never overcome.


I don't believe it is stupid, just illogical. :)

itsdemtitans wrote:
Well, I fall into the annihilationist camp so I don't believe in the whole eternal punishment thing. But I don't think he punishes people in any sense for not believing based on evidence. He simply casts judgement on sin (which brings us back to the issue of him setting an arbitrary standard), regardless of your belief. I'm not a theologian so I can't really give a great answer, sorry.


I would rather you not give a great answer and be humble about it, than to give BS apologetic answer that some Christians tend to do.

itsdemtitans wrote:
My whole thing is that the core basics i.e. don't kill, steal, etc. are inborn. But that has many problems of it's own. Case in point, if it did come from God why did most of humanity not seem to think it was wrong owning others as property?


Indeed it does have many problems.

itsdemtitans wrote:
I really don't like the morality argument anymore :lol:


I don't really like it either. If I think about too long my head explodes! ;)
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:29 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Personally, I'd place evolution as the backbone of morality, with culture as window-dressing.


Kindest regards,

James


Are you talking about social evolution or genic evolution? If it is the former then I agree.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:31 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

itsdemtitans wrote:Not sure if that's a good analogy or not. Of course, it all hinges on God being truly omniscient, or to what extent. I'd assume God doesn't know the future, the biblical narrative sure comes off that way.


red wrote:
What makes you think there is only one god?
If there were to be something beyond nature the only argument against multiple entities would be Occam's razor. But there being a less than "good" god makes more sense than a perfect god given the shambles of a universe we have which is mostly lifeless and destined for oblivion. Maybe we got a trainee god for our universe and her next one will be an improvement!
Anyhoos, just putting it out there (way out, maybe).


You quoted the wrong person. I fixed it for you. :)
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:36 pm
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

tuxbox wrote:Are you talking about social evolution or genic evolution? If it is the former then I agree.

If so many animal species exhibit similar moral characteristics, and their social environments are dissimilar, the case for genetic evolution is prima facie more sound.
Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:55 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Critiques of my arguments for the existence of God?

red wrote:
tuxbox wrote:Are you talking about social evolution or genic evolution? If it is the former then I agree.

If so many animal species exhibit similar moral characteristics, and their social environments are dissimilar, the case for genetic evolution is prima facie more sound.


We have not evolved (genetically) much since the 18th and 19th century when slavery was not considered immoral. So how do you account for that? Also, like I mentioned before, Western morals differ from Middle Eastern morals today. So how do you account for that as well?
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:23 pm
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