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Evolution Hates Atheists.

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Evolution Hates Atheists.
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Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Gnug215 wrote:
Yes, exactly.

I wasn't sure how to phrase my point, because it is absolutely clear that creationists don't really understand evolution. But evolution does seem more superficially accessible to them somehow.
It's probably also a lot more emotionally relatable. I bet they feel really scared sometimes when they get hit by some basic, animal urges, and so they feel a big need to deny their animal connection.

And yeah, some of them are definitely lying. But those that are don't understand evolution very well, either. They only understand it well enough to know what parts to lie about to those people that understand less than they do. And I don't think they even lose a bit of sleep over that, because as we know, lying for Jesus is A-OK!


http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/ ... -our-minds

This says a lot right here.
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Tue May 09, 2017 12:13 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 889Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:I am not avoiding anything, I openly admit that I don't know how to handle some verses in the bible (including those that deal with slavery)


Slavery was an acceptable method of man sustaining his life in a time where day to day where mere day to day survival was not guaranteed. In the earliest times of slavery, wealth would mostly have been held by tribal leaders and rulers of small kingdoms. There would have been little opportunity for independent, economic ventures. Slaves were subject to beatings as a punishment. And so were non-slaves of course.

Later, when modern civilization arose in force, Jesus simply told slaves to serve their masters well.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Tue May 09, 2017 8:14 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

thenexttodie wrote:
leroy wrote:I am not avoiding anything, I openly admit that I don't know how to handle some verses in the bible (including those that deal with slavery)


Slavery was an acceptable method of man sustaining his life in a time where day to day where mere day to day survival was not guaranteed. In the earliest times of slavery, wealth would mostly have been held by tribal leaders and rulers of small kingdoms. There would have been little opportunity for independent, economic ventures. Slaves were subject to beatings as a punishment. And so were non-slaves of course.

Later, when modern civilization arose in force, Jesus simply told slaves to serve their masters well.


So conquering neighboring tribes and enslaving members of that tribe (killing the rest) was an acceptable method of a man sustaining his life?

You have a pretty perverse view of reality.
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Wed May 10, 2017 4:12 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2669Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

thenexttodie wrote:
leroy wrote:I am not avoiding anything, I openly admit that I don't know how to handle some verses in the bible (including those that deal with slavery)


Slavery was an acceptable method of man sustaining his life in a time where day to day where mere day to day survival was not guaranteed. In the earliest times of slavery, wealth would mostly have been held by tribal leaders and rulers of small kingdoms. There would have been little opportunity for independent, economic ventures. Slaves were subject to beatings as a punishment. And so were non-slaves of course.

Later, when modern civilization arose in force, Jesus simply told slaves to serve their masters well.



So what you're saying is... that life back then was so shitty (which was according to God's plan) due to all wealth being concentrated among a few people, so the only way others could sustain themselves was by being slaves?

So God's proposed solution to this situation wasn't: "Yea, thou shalt not hog all the cash. Share the wealth, man!"

But instead: "Soo... this situation kinda sucks. The only way out is for you to let yourself be owned by someone else. Oh and btw... Don't revolt or fight for equality and fairness, btw? Those rich guys, they should be left alone and respected for their accumulation of wealth at the cost of everyone else. So be sure to obey them."

You're defending bad decision after bad decision that the Bible makes, in order to justify your faith in some entity whose existence has never been shown to be real.

You've actually gotten to the point where you're defending slavery!!
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Wed May 10, 2017 5:51 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

I've seen a lot of things on these forums. Claiming that slavery was necessary to human survival is above and beyond anything else.

Also isn't "it was okay in that context" exactly the kind of moral reasoning theists speak out against?

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Wed May 10, 2017 9:24 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 812Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Laurens wrote:I've seen a lot of things on these forums. Claiming that slavery was necessary to human survival is above and beyond anything else.

Also isn't "it was okay in that context" exactly the kind of moral reasoning theists speak out against?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Moral relativism, more or less. Which is funny because in the other thread Leroy is arguing for objective morality.

Though I don't know how this is relevant to the topic. Maybe slavery was a meme that has, largely, run it's course and is loosing it's interest?
Wed May 10, 2017 10:23 am
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Laurens wrote:I.

Also isn't "it was okay in that context" exactly the kind of moral reasoning theists speak out against?



Objective (as I am using the term) means independent form human opinion, not independent of context.


Something can be objectively true, but if you change the context it might be objectively wrong.


the statement I am 29yo is objectively true today, but it wont be true next year


MarsCydonia would answer wrote:I.

some stupid word game .....





My reply to his word game


I claim that objective means independent from human opinion, please feel free to use any other term to express what I meant.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 10, 2017 2:44 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 877Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Laurens wrote:I've seen a lot of things on these forums. Claiming that slavery was necessary to human survival is above and beyond anything else.

Also isn't "it was okay in that context" exactly the kind of moral reasoning theists speak out against?

I am not surprised from seeing such a claim as I've seen quite often from christian who are usually comitted to the idea their god can condone no wrong.

Type "slavery social safety net" in google and you'll get a lot of hits where christians try to argue that slavery was a social safety net for the poor in that era. What you will not find, even when you ask, is how the slavemasters could not simply hire the poor as employees as opposed to own them as property. Nations throughout the world manage to do it today, how could it possibly be against god's power to instore then?

- Slavery was a social safety net for the poor
- You're thinking too much about today slavery (owning human beings as property) but slavery back then was different (it was still owning human beings as property)
- "Slave" is a bad translation, the word "servant" is more accurate (a servant owned as property by a "servantmaster").

Those are the most common moral justifications christians come up with to defend how the bible condones slavery.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed May 10, 2017 3:51 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 877Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:Objective (as I am using the term) means independent form human opinion, not independent of context.

MarsCydonia would answer wrote:I.

some stupid word game .....


My reply to his word game

I claim that objective means independent from human opinion, please feel free to use any other term to express what I meant.

Leroy guessing again what someone will say/believes/thinks? He's 0 for 1057469 times so far, is this time going to be the first time he has it right?

Leroy, now 0 for 1057470.

As we've explained to your Leroy, that was and remains special pleading.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed May 10, 2017 3:55 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote:[

Leroy guessing again what someone will say/believes/thinks? He's 0 for 1057469 times so far, is this time going to be the first time he has it right?

Leroy, now 0 for 1057470.

As we've explained to your Leroy, that was and remains special pleading.


yes It would be special pleading if I ever affirm that slavery was ok in the past, without providing any reason. ..............until I do that you can accuse for committing that fallacy.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 10, 2017 4:12 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
MarsCydonia wrote:[

Leroy guessing again what someone will say/believes/thinks? He's 0 for 1057469 times so far, is this time going to be the first time he has it right?

Leroy, now 0 for 1057470.

As we've explained to your Leroy, that was and remains special pleading.


yes It would be special pleading if I ever affirm that slavery was ok in the past, without providing any reason. ..............until I do that you can accuse for committing that fallacy.


That's not what "special pleading" means, btw.

Special pleading would be claiming a special exception to the rules everyone/thing else must follow. For example, the argument "everything complex has a creator" is often rebutted with "then your creator must be incredibly complex, what created it?" Special pleading kicks in when the creator becomes the only exception... "My creator always existed".
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Wed May 10, 2017 4:35 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 877Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:yes It would be special pleading if I ever affirm that slavery was ok in the past, without providing any reason. ..............until I do that you can accuse for committing that fallacy.

Really Leroy?

- You quoted what you "predicted" my answer would be about your explanation of "objective morality" (which you obviously got wrong like always)
- I pointed out that it has been pointed out previously that your explanation was special pleading
- Then you appear to believe the comments were about slavery rather than your explanation of "objective morality"?

Your mind deluded itself from "objective morality" to "slavery"? How does it work? Again Leroy, please consider volunteering yourself as a psychology case study.

Leroy, now 0 for 1057476.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed May 10, 2017 4:47 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Grumpy Santa wrote:
That's not what "special pleading" means, btw.

Special pleading would be claiming a special exception to the rules everyone/thing else must follow. For example, the argument "everything complex has a creator" is often rebutted with "then your creator must be incredibly complex, what created it?" Special pleading kicks in when the creator becomes the only exception... "My creator always existed".



yes, If I argue that slavery was only ok in ancient Hebrew culture, without providing a justification, it would be special pleading
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 10, 2017 5:08 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote:
Your mind deluded itself from "objective morality" to "slavery"? How does it work? Again Leroy, please consider volunteering yourself as a psychology case study.

.



granted, I made a mistake, I missed.in fact I made 2 mistakes, I wrongly predicted you r answer and I wrongly assumed that you where talking about slavery (see how easy it is to admit a mistake)
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 10, 2017 5:19 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
Grumpy Santa wrote:
That's not what "special pleading" means, btw.

Special pleading would be claiming a special exception to the rules everyone/thing else must follow. For example, the argument "everything complex has a creator" is often rebutted with "then your creator must be incredibly complex, what created it?" Special pleading kicks in when the creator becomes the only exception... "My creator always existed".



yes, If I argue that slavery was only ok in ancient Hebrew culture, without providing a justification, it would be special pleading


Not "special pleading", just making an assertion without evidence to support the assertion. I found a definition (and will link it...)

Description: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... l-Pleading
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Wed May 10, 2017 6:53 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Grumpy Santa wrote:
yes, If I argue that slavery was only ok in ancient Hebrew culture, without providing a justification, it would be special pleading


Not "special pleading", just making an assertion without evidence to support the assertion. I found a definition (and will link it...)

Description: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... l-Pleading[/quote]


sure, to say that slavery was ok just because they where Hebrews without a justification would be special pleading ................you are applying a special rule to Hebrew Masters
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 10, 2017 7:48 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 877Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:granted, I made a mistake, I missed.in fact I made 2 mistakes, I wrongly predicted you r answer and I wrongly assumed that you where talking about slavery (see how easy it is to admit a mistake)

Easy? If it was easy for Leroy, you'd do more of it.
You're confusing "easy" with "easier than understanding morality, free will, the actual position of other commenters, etc.".

Easier Leroy, not easy.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed May 10, 2017 9:27 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
Grumpy Santa wrote:

Not "special pleading", just making an assertion without evidence to support the assertion. I found a definition (and will link it...)

Description: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... l-Pleading



sure, to say that slavery was ok just because they where Hebrews without a justification would be special pleading ................you are applying a special rule to Hebrew Masters


Not exactly. If you're stating that it was OK to them at their time because that was their culture then you'd simply be making a statement of fact, as well as demonstrating the subjectiveness of morality by showing how morality changes over time. If you were saying slavery is wrong but then defending the ancient Hebrews for keeping slaves because they were (for example) God's chosen peeps then you'd be venturing into special pleading.
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Thu May 11, 2017 2:02 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2669Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Ok, so the status so far of the things we've established:

1: Evolution does NOT hate atheists.

2: According to theists, "evolution" is an entity and/or a religion.

3: The above point was proven to be an absurd falsehood.

4: According to theists, slavery can be a good thing.

5: Morality for theists, according to God, or more accurately, the Bible, is objective...

6: ... until it isn't anymore. Then it's up for interpretation and situational context.

7: Internet debates hate theists.


Well, this topic has been fun.

For as much as we've gone off topic numerous times, at least we settled the initial (absurd) proposition.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Thu May 11, 2017 6:50 am
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Gnug215 wrote:Ok, so the status so far of the things we've established:

1: Evolution does NOT hate atheists..



not in the literal sense, (obviously) but natural selection tends to select organisms that reproduce efficiently over those who are less efficient.

and religious people reproduce more efficiently than atheist.

2: According to theists, "evolution" is an entity and/or a religion.


sure but also fanatic atheist treat evolution like a religion

3: The above point was proven to be an absurd falsehood.

proven?

4: According to theists, slavery can be a good thing.

depending on what you mean by slavery and depending on the context

5: Morality for theists, according to God, or more accurately, the Bible, is objective...



does the bible teach that morality is objective? I don't think so, but feel free to prove me wrong

6: ... until it isn't anymore. Then it's up for interpretation and situational context.


are you talking about morality in this point?
7: Internet debates hate theists.



maybe
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Thu May 11, 2017 10:21 pm
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