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Evolution Hates Atheists.

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Evolution Hates Atheists.
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Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2688Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:the thing is that when my world view has a problem or an apparent contradiction, I simply admit it.


And then, after admitting it, you do the intellectually honest and reasonable thing and reject that world view.

Right?
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Wed May 03, 2017 10:42 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Gnug215 wrote:
leroy wrote:the thing is that when my world view has a problem or an apparent contradiction, I simply admit it.


And then, after admitting it, you do the intellectually honest and reasonable thing and reject that world view.

Right?


Given that I haven't done enough research, I simply maintain an agnostic position., I simply don't know what a Christian is suppose to think about homosexuality and it is not an area of my interest,
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 03, 2017 11:28 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote: Do you think it would convince us there's nothing wrong?



I don't have to convince you, you already believe that there is nothing wrong with slavery. remember you don't believe in objective moral values.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed May 03, 2017 11:37 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
MarsCydonia wrote: Do you think it would convince us there's nothing wrong?



I don't have to convince you, you already believe that there is nothing wrong with slavery. remember you don't believe in objective moral values.


Recognizing the fact that morals are subjective has nothing to do with whether or not one thinks there's anything wrong with slavery. Remember, the slave owners of the south justified slavery using their bibles.
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Thu May 04, 2017 1:56 am
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
MarsCydonia wrote: Does that convince you that there's nothing wrong with slavery? Do you think it would convince us there's nothing wrong? Just because you say it Leroy, does not mean you are right. Especially since you think you can prove objective morality but have done a hilariously bad job of it.


I don't have to convince you, you already believe that there is nothing wrong with slavery.

Tthat's a way to avoid answering the actual question Leroy, not unexpected from a coward, but it isn't a great way.

You're confusing me with a not-hypocritical bible-believing christian.

leroy wrote: remember you don't believe in objective moral values.

And since you're as brainless concerning morality as you are about pretty much everything else, you failt to see that it's not an issue.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Thu May 04, 2017 11:32 am
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Grumpy Santa wrote:[
Recognizing the fact that morals are subjective has nothing to do with whether or not one thinks there's anything wrong with slavery. Remember, the slave owners of the south justified slavery using their bibles.


ok granted, but the claim slavery is wrong, is just a personal opinion, like saying that chocolate Ice cream tastes better than vanilla ice cream.

others might have a different opinion and no one would be wrong.


is this your view?
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Last edited by leroy on Thu May 04, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu May 04, 2017 2:26 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote:Tthat's a way to avoid answering the actual question Leroy, not unexpected from a coward, but it isn't a great way.

You're confusing me with a not-hypocritical bible-believing christian.


I am not avoiding anything, I openly admit that I don't know how to handle some verses in the bible (including those that deal with slavery)
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Thu May 04, 2017 2:29 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:I am not avoiding anything, I openly admit that I don't know how to handle some verses in the bible (including those that deal with slavery)

But Leroy, that's a clear "yes-no" question. Is slavery morally wrong?

Not only is that a clear "yes-no" question, it's also a clear "yes-no" issue in the bible. If the bible is the word of god and god is the source of objective morality, then slavery is not morally wrong. So how can you possibly not know when it is plainly written?

Or is that another case of something clear and unambiguous being vague and hazy to you? So which part confuses you?
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Thu May 04, 2017 3:13 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote:
leroy wrote:I am not avoiding anything, I openly admit that I don't know how to handle some verses in the bible (including those that deal with slavery)

But Leroy, that's a clear "yes-no" question. Is slavery morally wrong?

Not only is that a clear "yes-no" question, it's also a clear "yes-no" issue in the bible. If the bible is the word of god and god is the source of objective morality, then slavery is not morally wrong. So how can you possibly not know when it is plainly written?

Or is that another case of something clear and unambiguous being vague and hazy to you? So which part confuses you?



Yes I would say that slavery is morally wrong

Yes I would say that the bible is the word of God


therefore, congratulations you made a valid argument against the divinity of the bible .......... see how easy it is to answer a yes or no question ? see how easy it is to admit when a valid argument is presented?


the standard answer that a Christian would provide is that the term slavery had a different connotation back then, But I don't claim to have enough knowledge to support that claim
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Last edited by leroy on Thu May 04, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu May 04, 2017 3:35 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:the standard answer that a Christian would provide is that the term slavery had a different connotation back then, But I don't claim to have enough knowledge to support that claim

No, Leroy, that's the standard answer of an hypocritical christian that tries to bullshit that objective morality comes from god but feels that slavery is wrong. Slavery was slavery.

That's a problem isn't it? Claiming that objective morality should be one thing yet feeling that something that is supposed to be morally right is morally wrong? Congratulations. You just admitted that you reject god's morality and that your opinion on morality is subjective.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Thu May 04, 2017 3:45 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote:
leroy wrote:the standard answer that a Christian would provide is that the term slavery had a different connotation back then, But I don't claim to have enough knowledge to support that claim

No, Leroy, that's the standard answer of an hypocritical christian that tries to bullshit that objective morality comes from god but feels that slavery is wrong. Slavery was slavery.

That's a problem isn't it? Claiming that objective morality should be one thing yet feeling that something that is supposed to be morally right is morally wrong? Congratulations. You just admitted that you reject god's morality and that your opinion on morality is subjective.


That is the answer that Christians that know much more about the bible than I (and that you) would provide if you think they are wrong, then go to and tell them. The fact that I am a Christian does not prove that I have an answer for everything, in the same way the fact that you are a naturalist, does not imply that you can explain everything with natural mechanisms


Yes that is a problem that I cant solve, it is much better to admit that your world view has a problem, rather than ignore it, and insulting those who point out that problem, it is also better to admit that there is a problem rather than providing contradictory and ambiguous answers

Yes slavery constitutes a sound argument against the divinity of the bible,


At this point if you where an honest person you would say something like this, I believe in objetive morality, I believe that some things like slavery are objectively wrong, but I cant reconcile objective morality with atheism ......... Admitting that there are good arguments for god and good arguments against atheism, does not necessarily imply that you have to become a theist. but it does strongly suggests that you are open minded and intellectually honest
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Thu May 04, 2017 4:23 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 203Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

I think we are slowly and gently moving closer to a very central issue regarding this discussion.

Leroy, is it possible for a person to make some kind of value judgement based on something other than a divine entity?
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Thu May 04, 2017 5:39 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Steelmage99 wrote:I think we are slowly and gently moving closer to a very central issue regarding this discussion.

Leroy, is it possible for a person to make some kind of value judgement based on something other than a divine entity?



you could judge anyone without a divine authority ........but that judgement would be just a subjective opinion, ...............you can judge that chocolate ice-cream and conclude that it taste better than vanilla ice/cream

in the absence of a law giver all judgements would be subjective
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Thu May 04, 2017 6:09 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 203Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:I think we are slowly and gently moving closer to a very central issue regarding this discussion.

Leroy, is it possible for a person to make some kind of value judgement based on something other than a divine entity?



you could judge anyone without a divine authority ........but that judgement would be just a subjective opinion, ...............you can judge that chocolate ice-cream and conclude that it taste better than vanilla ice/cream

in the absence of a law giver all judgements would be subjective


So I could be justified in saying that slavery is morally wrong, for example - even if that justification is not grounded in a divine entity?

I could reject the concept of objective morality and/or the idea that objective morality (should it exist) must be based on a divine entity - and still be able to pass moral judgements, based on some system other than a divine entity?
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Thu May 04, 2017 6:36 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:That is the answer that Christians that know much more about the bible than I (and that you) would provide if you think they are wrong, then go to and tell them.

It isn't the answer of christians that know more about the bible. Are you under the impression that I've never thought about this issue while I was christian myself? Or that I have not discussed this with christians since then?

I've heard all possible admissions, justifications and excuses. Some acknowledge that slavery is not morally wrong according to the bible, some try to pretend that "bible slavery" was morally ok because it was different from "regular slavery" (it wasn't) and some just plain deny that the bible condones slavery. But if it was the answer of "christians that know more about the bible" then all of those christians would agree. They don't.

MarsCydonia wrote:Yes that is a problem that I cant solve, it is much better to admit that your world view has a problem, rather than ignore it, and insulting those who point out that problem, it is also better to admit that there is a problem rather than providing contradictory and ambiguous answers.

The fact that I am a Christian does not prove that I have an answer for everything, in the same way the fact that you are a naturalist, does not imply that you can explain everything with natural mechanisms.

That's also wrong Leroy.

It's not your worldview that has a problem. It's you that has a problem with your worldview.

You being a christian and me being an atheist has absolutely no impact whether the bible condones slavery or not. It simply is clear that it does. So the problem is with you: you are not consistent with your worldview. So you have to find the answer about why you believe in a worldview that believe is both right and wrong. I don't really care but if you try to pass your fictional worldview as valid, you shouldn't have such issues with it.

leroy wrote:Yes slavery constitutes a sound argument against the divinity of the bible,

How? Because you think that slavery is morally wrong and that the bible, as the word of god, would condone something morally wrong?

But objective morality wouldn't care what you think Leroy, it would just be what it is.

That "slavery is morally wrong" is not objective morality on your part Leroy, its your moral opinion. If the bible says slavery is right (and the bible does condone slavery), then slavery is morally right and any other belief or feeling that does not agree with this is simply false.

Unless of course:
- If objective morality exists, its not based on god
- Objective morality does not exist.

Now I could pull a Leroy and ask "Since you reject the objective morality of god, which one do you think is more likely true" :lol:

leroy wrote:At this point if you where an honest person you would say something like this, I believe in objetive morality, I believe that some things like slavery are objectively wrong, but I cant reconcile objective morality with atheism admitting that there are good arguments for god and good arguments against atheism, does not necessarily imply that you have to become a theist. but it does strongly suggests that you are open minded and intellectually honest

You don't know what an honest person would do Leroy because honesty does not matter to you. So what you think honesty would be for me is completely wrong, because you don't care.

I don't believe in objective morality. I can't admit there are good arguments for god because I've never seen one. Any "good arguments against atheism" would be good argument for theism but as I said, I've yet to see any. And that's counting profesional apologists and not brainless forum trolls like you. And that's actually being honest is.

If you want to know what honesty is like for me, why don't you try? Try to be honest Leroy, you might understand others better when they are.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Thu May 04, 2017 7:27 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Steelmage99 wrote:
So I could be justified in saying that slavery is morally wrong, for example - even if that justification is not grounded in a divine entity?

I could reject the concept of objective morality and/or the idea that objective morality (should it exist) must be based on a divine entity - and still be able to pass moral judgements, based on some system other than a divine entity?


without a law giver, slavery would only be wrong according to your own personal opinion, it would be like saying that chocolate ice cream is more tasty than vanilla icecream

others might have a different option and none of you would be wrong
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Thu May 04, 2017 7:46 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

MarsCydonia wrote:
leroy wrote:That is the answer that Christians that know much more about the bible than I (and that you) would provide if you think they are wrong, then go to and tell them.

It isn't the answer of christians that know more about the bible. Are you under the impression that I've never thought about this issue while I was christian myself? Or that I have not discussed this with christians since then?

I've heard all possible admissions, justifications and excuses. Some acknowledge that slavery is not morally wrong according to the bible, some try to pretend that "bible slavery" was morally ok because it was different from "regular slavery" (it wasn't) and some just plain deny that the bible condones slavery. But if it was the answer of "christians that know more about the bible" then all of those christians would agree. They don't.

MarsCydonia wrote:Yes that is a problem that I cant solve, it is much better to admit that your world view has a problem, rather than ignore it, and insulting those who point out that problem, it is also better to admit that there is a problem rather than providing contradictory and ambiguous answers.

The fact that I am a Christian does not prove that I have an answer for everything, in the same way the fact that you are a naturalist, does not imply that you can explain everything with natural mechanisms.

That's also wrong Leroy.

It's not your worldview that has a problem. It's you that has a problem with your worldview.

You being a christian and me being an atheist has absolutely no impact whether the bible condones slavery or not. It simply is clear that it does. So the problem is with you: you are not consistent with your worldview. So you have to find the answer about why you believe in a worldview that believe is both right and wrong. I don't really care but if you try to pass your fictional worldview as valid, you shouldn't have such issues with it.

leroy wrote:Yes slavery constitutes a sound argument against the divinity of the bible,

How? Because you think that slavery is morally wrong and that the bible, as the word of god, would condone something morally wrong?

But objective morality wouldn't care what you think Leroy, it would just be what it is.

That "slavery is morally wrong" is not objective morality on your part Leroy, its your moral opinion. If the bible says slavery is right (and the bible does condone slavery), then slavery is morally right and any other belief or feeling that does not agree with this is simply false.

Unless of course:
- If objective morality exists, its not based on god
- Objective morality does not exist.

Now I could pull a Leroy and ask "Since you reject the objective morality of god, which one do you think is more likely true" :lol:

leroy wrote:At this point if you where an honest person you would say something like this, I believe in objetive morality, I believe that some things like slavery are objectively wrong, but I cant reconcile objective morality with atheism admitting that there are good arguments for god and good arguments against atheism, does not necessarily imply that you have to become a theist. but it does strongly suggests that you are open minded and intellectually honest

You don't know what an honest person would do Leroy because honesty does not matter to you. So what you think honesty would be for me is completely wrong, because you don't care.

I don't believe in objective morality. I can't admit there are good arguments for god because I've never seen one. Any "good arguments against atheism" would be good argument for theism but as I said, I've yet to see any. And that's counting profesional apologists and not brainless forum trolls like you. And that's actually being honest is.

If you want to know what honesty is like for me, why don't you try? Try to be honest Leroy, you might understand others better when they are.




I already admitted that you presented a challenge to my view that I cant answer, I already admitted that I don't know the answer,.............how can I be more honest than that?


I could have used MarsCydonian dishonest tactics and play word games and provide ambiguous answers all the time. I preferred to be honest and admit that you presented a valid argument,





Unless of course:
- If objective morality exists, its not based on god
- Objective morality does not exist.


there are many other alternatives, that would not imply that OMV exist


Maybe slavery is not objectively wrong in some contexts

Maybe slavery had a different connotation in the past


Maybe slavery was necessary to achieve a grater good

Maybe the bible is not the word of God

Maybe those particular books that condone slavery are not the word of God

Maybe the bible doesn't condone slavery, maybe you misinterpreted the texts


but my answer is still, I don't know
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Thu May 04, 2017 8:10 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:I could have used MarsCydonian dishonest tactics and play word games and provide ambiguous answers all the time. I preferred to be honest and admit that you presented a valid argument,

Except it wasn't an argument against the divinity of the bible and still isn't.

leroy wrote:Maybe slavery is not objectively wrong in some contexts

Maybe slavery had a different connotation in the past

Maybe slavery was necessary to achieve a grater good

All of these are basically saying that slavery is not morally wrong.

leroy wrote:Maybe the bible is not the word of God

Maybe those particular books that condone slavery are not the word of God

These are saying that christianity is wrong.

leroy wrote:Maybe the bible doesn't condone slavery, maybe you misinterpreted the texts

The bible is clear and unambiguous Leroy. Just like I am. The excuse of "I'm too stupid to understand" does not work.

leroy wrote:but my answer is still, I don't know

Before arguing for objective morality or christianity, you should really know what they are.

But that you "don't know" is something we all already knew except for you.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Thu May 04, 2017 8:24 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 203Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

leroy wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
So I could be justified in saying that slavery is morally wrong, for example - even if that justification is not grounded in a divine entity?

I could reject the concept of objective morality and/or the idea that objective morality (should it exist) must be based on a divine entity - and still be able to pass moral judgements, based on some system other than a divine entity?


without a law giver, slavery would only be wrong according to your own personal opinion.....(snip)


As I just explained to you.....in my example I do have a law giver of sorts. it just isn't a divine entity. My "law giver" is better.

In addition, any law giver gives laws based on his or her opinions. Meaning that, according to you - as far as I have understood you -, those laws cannot be wrong (and subsequently cannot be right either) as they are only wrong (or right) according to the law giver's personal opinions.
There is nothing objective about that.



At this point I feel a really strong urge to preempt your response to this, but I will bite my tongue and see where this goes.
Who knows? Perhaps you will surprise me.
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Thu May 04, 2017 9:00 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution Hates Atheists.

Greetings,

Leroy, slavery in the Bible is the same as in Islam.

Kuwaiti Cleric Othman Al-Khamis: When a Slave-Girl Gets Married, Her Owner Must Stop Having Sex with Her

Do you think that slavery is wrong?

If you do, then you must acknowledge that the Bible's - and the Qur'an's - inspiration cannot be a deity.

Which is not surprising - there is no evidence that any religious text is the result of a deity, just of man.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu May 04, 2017 11:52 pm
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