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Ancient Irreligion

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Ancient Irreligion
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SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Ancient Irreligion

A claim often made in ignorance by fundamentalist theists is that atheism is a new idea, or that it's never been popular or important.

Of course, as with much of the rest of their assertions, this is formed by inspection of the fluff in their navel and is contradicted by evidence and reality.

In the real world, non-belief is an ancient tradition found all across the world wherever religious authorities didn't have the authority to torture and murder the heathen.

So this thread's aim is to cite excerpts from the past exposing the depth of non-theistic thinking back through human history.

There are thousands of such texts, and I couldn't hope to be comprehensive, but what I show will be sufficient to put an end to any similar claim in the future.

To start:

The first quote here is by Lucretius, written about 2050 years ago, was an Epicurean response to the god question. It's far too long to reproduce entirely, so a short piece and a link:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Acard%3D1

De Rerum Natura

That in no wise the nature of the world
For us was builded by a power divine-
So great the faults it stands encumbered with


Often transliterated as:

Had God designed the world, it would not be
A world so frail and faulty as we see.



Next up, an even more compelling example, a complete poem in a play addressing the nature of belief in gods, written by an unknown author (probably Euripides) but placed in the mouth of a character in Plato's plays.

https://people.wku.edu/jan.garrett/302/critias.htm


1 A time there was when disorder ruled
Human lives, which were then, like lives of beasts,
Enslaved to force; nor was there then reward
For the good, nor for the wicked punishment.
5 Next, it seems to me, humans established laws
For punishment, that justice might rule
Over the tribe of mortals, and wanton injury be subdued;
And whosoever did wrong was penalized.
Next, as the laws held [mortals] back from deeds
10 Of open violence, but still such deeds
Were done in secret,—then, I think,
Some shrewd man first, a man in judgment wise,
Found for mortals the fear of gods,
Thereby to frighten the wicked should they
15 Even act or speak or scheme in secret.
Hence it was that he introduced the divine
Telling how the divinity enjoys endless life,
Hears and sees, and takes thought
And attends to things, and his nature is divine,
20 So that everything which mortals say is heard
And everything done is visible.
Even if you plan in silence some evil deed
It will not be hidden from the gods: for discernment
Lies in them. So, speaking words like these,
25 The sweetest teaching did he introduce,
Concealing truth under untrue speech.
The place he spoke of as the gods' abode
Was that by which he might awe humans most,—
The place from which, he knew, terrors came to mortals
30 And things advantageous in their wearisome life—
The revolving heaven above, in which dwell
The lightnings, and awesome claps
Of thunder, and the starry face of heaven,
Beautiful and intricate by that wise craftsman Time,—
35 From which, too, the meteor's glowing mass speeds
And wet thunderstorm pours forth upon the earth.
Such were the fears with which he surrounded mortals,
And to the divinity he gave a fitting home,
By this his speech, and in a fitting place,
40 And [thus] extinguished lawlessness by laws.


Or to summarize: Man invented fear of the gods for mortals, so the wicked would have something to fear

We can find examples all over the world from recorded history. 2 of the primary schools of Hindu thought are explicitly atheist, and one other is agnostic.

The 10th chapter of the Nasadiya Sukta (Creation Hymn) in the Rig Veda:

Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.


The Samkhyakarika is an explicitly atheistic school of religious thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhyakarika

Paramārtha, in the 6th century, translated the work into Chinese, giving us a surviving record:

You say that God is the cause. This is not correct. Why so? Since He is without genetic constituents (Guna). God does not possess the three genetic constituents, whereas the world does possess the three genetic constituents. The cause and the effect would not resemble each other; therefore God is not the cause.


Funny how people around the world had already address the KCA, even though some theists think it's still noteworthy today. The uncaused causer, still blinding theists to their own inconsistencies.


The Carvaka school was also expressly atheistic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka

There is no other world other than this;
There is no heaven and no hell;
The realm of Shiva and like regions,
are invented by stupid imposters.


Sarvasiddhanta Samgraha, Verse 8

Vidyaranya, from the south of India in the 14th century wrote:

but how can we attribute to the Divine Being the giving of supreme felicity, when such a notion has been utterly abolished by Charvaka, the crest-gem of the atheistic school, the follower of the doctrine of Brihaspati? The efforts of Charvaka are indeed hard to be eradicated, for the majority of living beings hold by the current refrain:

While life is yours, live joyously;
None can escape Death's searching eye:
When once this frame of ours they burn,
How shall it e'er again return?



Kazimierz Lyszczynski, a 17th century Polish philosopher charged by the Catholic Church for heresy and executed because he wouldn't conform to the utterly pathetic idea of the Christian narrative, wrote this in De non existentia Dei:

II - the Man is a creator of God, and God is a concept and creation of a Man. Hence the people are architects and engineers of God and God is not a true being, but a being existing only within mind, being chimaeric by its nature, because a God and a chimaera are the same.

IV - simple folk are cheated by the more cunning with the fabrication of God for their own oppression; whereas the same oppression is shielded by the folk in a way, that if the wise attempted to free them by the truth, they would be quelled by the very people



Thomas Paine in the 18th century wrote much about the absurdity of Christianity and of organized religion

The world is my country, all mankind my brethren, to do good is my religion


The character of Moses, as stated in the Bible, is the most horrid that can be imagined. If those accounts be true, he was the wretch that first began and carried on wars on the score or on the pretence of religion; and under that mask, or that infatuation, committed the most unexampled atrocities that are to be found in the history of any nation.

...

Among the detestable villains that in any period of the world have disgraced the name of man, it is impossible to find a greater than Moses, if this account be true. Here is an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers, and debauch the daughters.



Let's keep collecting them here.

What's important to establish, and something that some theists think they can simply assert is false, is that atheism and non-belief in divine entities has as long a pedigree as belief.

Atheism has existed exactly as long as there has been religion, not a moment more, not a moment less. I have no doubt there are just as many atheists who would disagree with this (on account of the assumption of implicit atheism) as there are theists who pretend to themselves that atheism is a modern phenomenon.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:59 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 777Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Sparhafoc wrote:A claim often made in ignorance by fundamentalist theists is that atheism is a new idea, or that it's never been popular or important.

Even if we would give that premise (which we don't have to as you have shown); So what?

Western democracy wasn't popular or important 260 years ago. Universal sufferage, not only to women but men also, was not popular or important 160 years ago. Gay rights was not popular or important 60 years ago. Heck even Christianity was "never popular or important" 1860 years ago (not to mention almost all Christians follow something much, much younger). The value or the truth of an idea can not be determined by how popular or important it has been decades or centuries in the past, or even now.
Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:10 am
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Visaki wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:A claim often made in ignorance by fundamentalist theists is that atheism is a new idea, or that it's never been popular or important.

Even if we would give that premise (which we don't have to as you have shown); So what?

Western democracy wasn't popular or important 260 years ago. Universal sufferage, not only to women but men also, was not popular or important 160 years ago. Gay rights was not popular or important 60 years ago. Heck even Christianity was "never popular or important" 1860 years ago (not to mention almost all Christians follow something much, much younger). The value or the truth of an idea can not be determined by how popular or important it has been decades or centuries in the past, or even now.



Agreed, 100%

However, I think it's worthwhile noting that the victors write history, and as such, the history that gets taught to us is often curated. There are some quite wonderfully written counter-theism works from the ancient world, and some philosophy musing on the divine that's still contemporary (Aurelius is one of my favourite counter-theist writers, even though he was a theist!).

Too long have these lies been uncritically accepted. I think non-theists need to reappropriate the history of human thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation

In sociology and cultural studies, reappropriation or reclamation is the cultural process by which a group reclaims terms or artifacts that were previously used in a way disparaging of that group.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:24 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2959Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Greetings,

In Greek philosophy, the Sophists, Epicureans, and Skeptics were atheistic schools - the first dating back to the latter half of the fifth century.

Regarding Aurelius, as a Stoic, although he believed in Nature spirits ("gods"), he did not believe that such had anything to do with human destiny - thus, in that regard, he was an atheist.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:05 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Good points. I didn't even think to include Thales and Democritus, or any of the Ionian Pre-Socratics.

I'll add some quotes from them next! :)
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:37 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Dragan Glas wrote:Regarding Aurelius, as a Stoic, although he believed in Nature spirits ("gods"), he did not believe that such had anything to do with human destiny - thus, in that regard, he was an atheist.


I am not sure that's quite true.

The Meditations

http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/medit ... 1.one.html

To the gods I am indebted for having good grandfathers, good parents, a good sister, good teachers, good associates, good kinsmen and friends, nearly everything good. Further, I owe it to the gods that I was not hurried into any offence against any of them, though I had a disposition which, if opportunity had offered, might have led me to do something of this kind; but, through their favour, there never was such a concurrence of circumstances as put me to the trial. Further, I am thankful to the gods that I was not longer brought up with my grandfather's concubine, and that I preserved the flower of my youth, and that I did not make proof of my virility before the proper season, but even deferred the time; that I was subjected to a ruler and a father who was able to take away all pride from me, and to bring me to the knowledge that it is possible for a man to live in a palace without wanting either guards or embroidered dresses, or torches and statues, and such-like show; but that it is in such a man's power to bring himself very near to the fashion of a private person, without being for this reason either meaner in thought, or more remiss in action, with respect to the things which must be done for the public interest in a manner that befits a ruler. I thank the gods for giving me such a brother, who was able by his moral character to rouse me to vigilance over myself, and who, at the same time, pleased me by his respect and affection; that my children have not been stupid nor deformed in body; that I did not make more proficiency in rhetoric, poetry, and the other studies, in which I should perhaps have been completely engaged, if I had seen that I was making progress in them; that I made haste to place those who brought me up in the station of honour, which they seemed to desire, without putting them off with hope of my doing it some time after, because they were then still young; that I knew Apollonius, Rusticus, Maximus; that I received clear and frequent impressions about living according to nature, and what kind of a life that is, so that, so far as depended on the gods, and their gifts, and help, and inspirations, nothing hindered me from forthwith living according to nature, though I still fall short of it through my own fault, and through not observing the admonitions of the gods, and, I may almost say, their direct instructions; that my body has held out so long in such a kind of life; that I never touched either Benedicta or Theodotus, and that, after having fallen into amatory passions, I was cured; and, though I was often out of humour with Rusticus, I never did anything of which I had occasion to repent; that, though it was my mother's fate to die young, she spent the last years of her life with me; that, whenever I wished to help any man in his need, or on any other occasion, I was never told that I had not the means of doing it; and that to myself the same necessity never happened, to receive anything from another; that I have such a wife, so obedient, and so affectionate, and so simple; that I had abundance of good masters for my children; and that remedies have been shown to me by dreams, both others, and against bloodspitting and giddiness...; and that, when I had an inclination to philosophy, I did not fall into the hands of any sophist, and that I did not waste my time on writers of histories, or in the resolution of syllogisms, or occupy myself about the investigation of appearances in the heavens; for all these things require the help of the gods and fortune.


Perhaps its best to say that he had a complicated relationship with the gods, but often mentioned piety - the Roman notion of caretaking for their gods, which i think suggests he actually believed in their existence, just perhaps not in the same way as most people at the time did.


EDIT: Ugh, I've got more quotes but then I would be wholly derailing my own thread! :lol: This is a thread for quotes about historical non-theism, not quotes about theism! :D
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:42 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2959Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Greetings,

I think this article may clear up the confusion. ;)

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:03 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Thanks and looks an interesting read, but I am going to try and keep this thread on quotes from history expressing non-theistic beliefs! :) Another thread would be fantastic, as I do like Aurelius's mind.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:08 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Sparhafoc wrote: A claim often made in ignorance by fundamentalist theists is that atheism is a new idea, or that it's never been popular or important...
The first quote here is by Lucretius, written about 2050 years ago, was an Epicurean response to the god question. It's far too long to reproduce entirely, so a short piece and a link:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Acard%3D1

De Rerum Natura

That in no wise the nature of the world
For us was builded by a power divine-
So great the faults it stands encumbered with


Often transliterated as:

Had God designed the world, it would not be
A world so frail and faulty as we see.


This sounds like something I would have said years ago, stoned and trying to get laid.



Sparhafoc wrote:Thomas Paine in the 18th century wrote much about the absurdity of Christianity and of organized religion

The world is my country, all mankind my brethren, to do good is my religion


The character of Moses, as stated in the Bible, is the most horrid that can be imagined. If those accounts be true, he was the wretch that first began and carried on wars on the score or on the pretence of religion; and under that mask, or that infatuation, committed the most unexampled atrocities that are to be found in the history of any nation.
I am assuming the only reason you such a late quote is because it expresses a commonly held sentiment of modern Atheists. Am I correct?

Or are suggesting that what Thomas Paine (someone most people have never even heard of) thought about Moses was a decisive factor in the course of a rather late human history?

I am not sure what your point is, either way.

Sparhafoc wrote:Atheism has existed exactly as long as there has been religion, not a moment more, not a moment less.
You have not demonstrated this at all, anywhere in your post. Even when referring to Charvaka.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:53 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

thenexttodie wrote:This sounds like something I would have said years ago, stoned and trying to get laid.


Arguably a vastly more productive life than one spent living in belief of a magical man behind the cosmic carpet.



thenexttodie wrote:I am assuming the only reason you such a late quote is because it expresses a commonly held sentiment of modern Atheists. Am I correct?


Did you not read the OP? Perhaps you want to say that the quote's not 'ancient', but as I explained in the OP, this is about providing evidence against the theist canard of the modernity of non-theism. No more, no less.

As for the commonality of atheist belief canard; of course not. How many atheists even know who Thomas Paine is? I wouldn't be caught making any such dopey assumptions, not least that there's any commonality between atheists other than their non-belief in divine quantities.

Again, as the OP says, this is about NON-THEISM.

this thread's aim is to cite excerpts from the past exposing the depth of non-theistic thinking back through human history.


Is there something in that sentence you can't parse?

I don't really give a damn what you want to call it - I don't consider myself an atheist any more than I consider myself an afairyist. Not that either of the theists here have ever even paid the courtesy of asking me my position - they've just decided for me.

I credit the existence of gods with exactly the same credit you lend to the concept of fairies, gnomes, trolls, and boogeymen under the bed. If you don't define yourself in relation to your non-belief of those, then you will lend me the same right to not define myself in terms of your preferred supernatural fairy tale.


thenexttodie wrote:Or are suggesting that what Thomas Paine (someone most people have never even heard of) thought about Moses was a decisive factor in the course of a rather late human history?


Don't you think that if I had wanted to suggest that... that I might, you know, have written something like that?

Or do you suppose me incompetent at explaining my own thoughts? Perhaps you think you're better at explaining what I think than I am?


thenexttodie wrote:I am not sure what your point is, either way.


You could, you know, try reading the OP where I explain perfectly clearly what the point is of this thread and the quotes therein.


Sparhafoc wrote:You have not demonstrated this at all, anywhere in your post. Even when referring to Charvaka.


I didn't say I had demonstrated this, nor did I say I would demonstrate it. As for Charvaka - still outdates your preferred cultural mythology. ;)

But glad you learned something, even if your thinking was blinkered as you desperately rooted around for secret agendas that didn't exist.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:03 pm
Bango SkankPosts: 180Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Does Xenophanes of Colophon count?

EDIT: While searching about the topic i came across this new book and article of it:

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/disb ... s-religion

Could be interesting read.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:39 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Nice one - didn't even cross my mind but fits into that Ionian pre-Socratic group that was burned out of European history by one religious orthodoxy after another!

Xenophanes c. 570 – c. 475 BC

Ethiopians say that their gods are snub-nosed and black;
Thracians that theirs are are blue-eyed and red-haired.


But if cattle and horses and lions had hands
or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
horses like horses and cattle like cattle
also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies
of such a sort as the form they themselves have.


Nailed it.

One god, greatest among gods and humans,
like mortals neither in form nor in thought.
....
But mortals think that the gods are born
and have the mortals' own clothes and voice and form.


Interestingly contemporary when Christians still maintain the whole 'in His form' bollocks while simultaneously depicting the God ontology as far outside mortal ken, where human reasoning and morals are irrelevant, and abilities no human has ever known.


Homer and Hesiod have attributed to the gods
all sorts of things that are matters of reproach and censure among men:
theft, adultery, and mutual deception.


Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus all do this too. They depict nasty characters and tell us they're all about love, peace, and infinite oneness.


…and of course the clear and certain truth no man has seen
nor will there be anyone who knows about the gods and what I say about all things.
For even if, in the best case, one happened to speak just of what has been brought to pass,
still he himself would not know. But opinion is allotted to all.


Someone in this very forum could benefit from understanding this.


…Let these things be believed (dedoxasthô) as like the realities…


An early formulation of a correspondence theory of truth coupled with both inductive reasoning and empirical evidence. A line of reasoning comprising elements of philosophies underlying our modern scientific method.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:51 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

Xenophanes was not an atheist.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:32 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

thenexttodie wrote:Xenophanes was not an atheist.


And nor was he a theist.

Proto-deist might be the best title.

Regardless, his arguments pre-emptively dispel the fatuous claim of Judaeo-Christianity where we are made in 'His' form.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:32 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

thenexttodie wrote:Xenophanes was not an atheist.


Sparhafoc wrote:And nor was he a theist.


He was a theist.


Sparhafoc wrote:Proto-deist might be the best title.


He was a theist.


Sparhafoc wrote:Regardless, his arguments pre-emptively dispel the fatuous claim of Judaeo-Christianity where we are made in 'His' form.


He was a theist.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:05 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

thenexttodie wrote:He was a theist.

You keep using this word, "theist", but you don't seem to know what it means.
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Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:10 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

MarsCydonia wrote:You keep using this word, "theist", but you don't seem to know what it means.


Theism

noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

Source dictionary.com

Xenophanes was not an atheist, He was a theist. He believed in God.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:17 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

I've requested that your attempted derail be removed because it's unfair that just because you dislike a topic that you think you can spoil it with ranting idiocy.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:26 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Deism... is a philosophical position which posits that a god does not interfere directly with the world. It also rejects revelation as a source of religious knowledge with the conclusion that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator of the universe.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandeism# ... ient_world

The earliest seeds of pandeism coincide with notions of monotheism, which generally can be traced back to the Atenism of Akhenaten, and the Babylonian-era Marduk. Weinstein in particular identified the idea of primary matter derived from an original spirit as found by the ancient Egyptians to be a form of pandeism.[20] Weinstein similarly found varieties of pandeism in the religious views held in China[21] (especially with respect to Taoism as expressed by Lao-Tze),[22] India, especially in the Hindu Bhagavad Gita,[23] and among various Greek and Roman philosophers.

Specifically, Weinstein wrote that 6th century BC philosopher Xenophanes of Colophon spoke as a pandeist in stating that there was one god which "abideth ever in the selfsame place, moving not at all" and yet "sees all over, thinks all over, and hears all over."[24] He similarly found that ideas of pandeism were reflected in the ideas of Heraclitus, and of the Stoics.[25] Weinstein also wrote that pandeism was especially expressed by the later students of the 'Platonic Pythagoreans' and the 'Pythagorean Platonists.'[26] and among them specifically identified 3rd century BC philosopher Chrysippus, who affirmed that "the universe itself is God and the universal outpouring of its soul,"[27] as a pandeist as well.[25]

Religious studies professor, F. E. Peters, however, found with respect[clarification needed] to the Pythagoreans and the Milesians that "[w]hat appeared... at the center of the Pythagorean tradition in philosophy, is another view of psyche that seems to owe little or nothing to the pan-vitalism or pan-deism that is the legacy of the Milesians.[28] Amongst the Milesians, English historian of philosophy Andrew Gregory notes in particular that "some construction using pan-, whether it be pantheism, pandeism or pankubernism describes Anaximander reasonably well," though he does go on to question whether Anaximander's view of the distinction between apeiron and cosmos makes these labels technically relevant at all.[29] Gottfried Große in his 1787 interpretation of Pliny the Elder’s Natural History, describes Pliny, a first-century figure, as "if not a Spinozist, then perhaps a Pandeist."[13]
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:30 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 848Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Ancient Irreligion

thenexttodie wrote:Theism

noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

Source dictionary.com

Xenophanes was not an atheist, He was a theist. He believed in God.

You still clearly do not understand the word "theist" or else you would not keep capitalizing "God". Or maybe you do understand and you are simply being your usual trollish self?

Theists believe in a "ruler" or "creator" who interferes in human affairs, a personal god who reveals or revealed his presence. Even when you use theism-writ-extremely-large, Xenophanes did not believe in a god who intervened in human affairs and revealed himself.

Of course, if you want to dilute theism to mean "whatever... as long as a divine is believed in", that's your prerogative as a troll. More power to you, less power to theism. Congratulations.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:47 pm
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