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Slavery in the bible discussion thread

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Slavery in the bible discussion thread
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SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Oh I forgot your Sparhafoc, the mysterious non-atheist! Congratulations. Let me know when you have the balls to tell us about the mysterious God you think exists.

What kind of a pussy are you?


It's very telling that the three supposed Christians here are such fucking asshats when it comes to doling out their knee-jerk prejudice whenever they get their panties in a twist.

Unlike you, chap, I don't need the validation of thrusting my beliefs down other people's throats.

But as you feel like being a cunt, I'll return the favour by ignoring the rest of your post there and instead spend this post just mocking your vapid viciousness.

I'm not your pigeon, TNTD - just because you've got a pre-made pigeon-hole you're looking to fill.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:08 am
SparhafocPosts: 1895Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Steelmage99 wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:
Well, sure Sparhafoc. The Bible does make many unvalidated claims. Some of which are extraordinary. I don't have evidence to give you for every thing in the Bible.


Well, then surely you should reject (or at least withhold belief in) the things that are "unvalidated".


Or even more importantly: not lend blind faith to
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:54 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 835Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparhafoc wrote:
Or even more importantly: not lend blind faith to


Well as a pointed out earlier in this thread ; As most wealth then would have been held by leaders of small kingdoms or tribes or by people who had a lot of cattle, there would have little opportunity for private business ventures or industry. God did free some slaves but he also did miracles to provide them with basic needs and many of the slaves he did free complained that they were better off being slaves.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:16 pm
leroyPosts: 1885Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Steelmage99 wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:
Well, sure Sparhafoc. The Bible does make many unvalidated claims. Some of which are extraordinary. I don't have evidence to give you for every thing in the Bible.


Well, then surely you should reject (or at least withhold belief in) the things that are "unvalidated".


If your wife (or girlfriend ) tells you that she went to the doctor and then to work, would you simply trust her and assume that she is being honest, or would you reject (or at least withhold belief in) until you verify (with cameras and and eye witnesses for example) that she is being honest?


The point that I am making is that “faith” and “trust” are the same thing, we all trust in people all the time even if we don’t always verify the assertions and claims, I don’t understand why atheist view “faith” as something intrinsically wrong or dishonest.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:28 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Greetings,

Trust and faith are not the same thing: we trust people we know - faith is putting trust in someone/something we don't know.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:04 pm
leroyPosts: 1885Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Trust and faith are not the same thing: we trust people we know - faith is putting trust in someone/something we don't know.

Kindest regards,

James


To have faith simply means to trust, you may or may not have good reasons to have faith/trust in something.


The point that I am making is that to have faith is not intrinsically bad, dishonest or fallacious, you may (or may not) have good reasons to justify your faith.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:12 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 186Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

leroy wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
Well, then surely you should reject (or at least withhold belief in) the things that are "unvalidated".


If your wife (or girlfriend ) tells you that she went to the doctor and then to work, would you simply trust her and assume that she is being honest, or would you reject (or at least withhold belief in) until you verify (with cameras and and eye witnesses for example) that she is being honest?


The point that I am making is that “faith” and “trust” are the same thing, we all trust in people all the time even if we don’t always verify the assertions and claims, I don’t understand why atheist view “faith” as something intrinsically wrong or dishonest.


"Faith" and "trust" are not the same thing. That's why we have two different words - to convey different meanings.
Trust in a person that have earned my trust is simply reasonable expectations.
I also have a reasonable expectation ("trust") that my chair will hold me up while I sit.

Will I occasionally sit in a chair that will collapse beneath me?
Sure.....
Should I model my life around all (or even most) chairs collapsing beneath me?
No......

Faith in an entity whose existence is still very much in question is something entirely different than trust in a girlfriend.

Take the following statements;

A. "I have a pet gerbil"

B. "I have a pet dog"

C. "I have a pet rhinoceros"

D. "I have a pet dragon"

Leroy, you do acknowledge that they are qualitatively different statements, with corresponding different standards of evidence, right?


...
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:00 am
leroyPosts: 1885Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Steelmage99 wrote:
"Faith" and "trust" are not the same thing. That's why we have two different words - to convey different meanings.
Trust in a person that have earned my trust is simply reasonable expectations.
I also have a reasonable expectation ("trust") that my chair will hold me up while I sit.

Will I occasionally sit in a chair that will collapse beneath me?
Sure.....
Should I model my life around all (or even most) chairs collapsing beneath me?
No......

Faith in an entity whose existence is still very much in question is something entirely different than trust in a girlfriend.

Take the following statements;

A. "I have a pet gerbil"

B. "I have a pet dog"

C. "I have a pet rhinoceros"

D. "I have a pet dragon"

Leroy, you do acknowledge that they are qualitatively different statements, with corresponding different standards of evidence, right?


...


All I am saying is that it is reasonable to trust (or have faith) in something if you have good reasons to trust it. In this particular case there are good resons to assume that you dont have a dragon, therefore there are good reasons not to trust you.

For example we cannot verify outside the gospels, that there was a criminal named “Barrabas” but given that the gospels do mention many different historical figures, whose existence has been verified, it makes sense to “trust” the authors of the gospels and trust that Barrabas was a real person.

Sure the burden proof is not the Christian, he is the one who has to show that there are good reasons to trust (have faith) in God, the bible etc.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:02 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 186Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

leroy wrote:
For example we cannot verify outside the gospels, that there was a criminal named “Barrabas” but given that the gospels do mention many different historical figures, whose existence has been verified, it makes sense to “trust” the authors of the gospels and trust that Barrabas was a real person.



And since the Spiderman comics repeatedly mentiones many different historical figures and locations , whose existence has been verified, it makes sense to "trust" the authors of those comics and trust that Spiderman is a real person.
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:02 am
leroyPosts: 1885Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Steelmage99 wrote:
leroy wrote:
For example we cannot verify outside the gospels, that there was a criminal named “Barrabas” but given that the gospels do mention many different historical figures, whose existence has been verified, it makes sense to “trust” the authors of the gospels and trust that Barrabas was a real person.



And since the Spiderman comics repeatedly mentiones many different historical figures and locations , whose existence has been verified, it makes sense to "trust" the authors of those comics and trust that Spiderman is a real person.


But it is obvious that Spiderman was not intended to be a real person.

All I am saying is that if a historical document is correct in most of the verifiable claims that it makes, it makes sense to “trust” the whole document Including the statements that are nor verifiable, unless you have good reasons not to trust them.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:58 pm
Bango SkankPosts: 199Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

leroy wrote:All I am saying is that if a historical document is correct in most of the verifiable claims that it makes, it makes sense to “trust” the whole document Including the statements that are nor verifiable, unless you have good reasons not to trust them.


Historical method is about probabilities. Supernatural claims are the least probable explanation what happened in the past (due rarity and physical impossibility), so it is very good reason not to trust the supernatural claims of a text which has some non extraorinary claims included as well.

Gospels are also heavily biased, they are propaganda. That needs to be taken account when examining them from historical perspective.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:54 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 186Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

leroy wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
And since the Spiderman comics repeatedly mentiones many different historical figures and locations , whose existence has been verified, it makes sense to "trust" the authors of those comics and trust that Spiderman is a real person.


But it is obvious that Spiderman was not intended to be a real person.



But it is obvious that Jesus was not intended to be a real person.

Like I said earlier, there is a difference in claims.
Each claim stands on its own - especially as claims become more outlandish.

If I make 100 (or however many you would like) rather mundane, but totally verifiable, claims about myself, would you then believe my 101st outlandish extreme claim about me?
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:06 pm
leroyPosts: 1885Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bango Skank wrote:
leroy wrote:All I am saying is that if a historical document is correct in most of the verifiable claims that it makes, it makes sense to “trust” the whole document Including the statements that are nor verifiable, unless you have good reasons not to trust them.


Historical method is about probabilities. Supernatural claims are the least probable explanation what happened in the past (due rarity and physical impossibility), so it is very good reason not to trust the supernatural claims of a text which has some non extraorinary claims included as well.

Gospels are also heavily biased, they are propaganda. That needs to be taken account when examining them from historical perspective.




I´ll say that it could be taken as historical certain (or nearly certain) that Jesus did what others interpreted as miracles.

Whether if they where actual miracles, illusions or frauds is beyond the scope of the historical method........agree?


Supernatural claims are the least probable explanatio


I would like to see a justification for that assertion.

If the existence of God is at least “probable” as 99% of the world’s population would grant, then supernatural events don’t seem to be so improbable.

Only if you show that the existence of God is impossible or extremely unlikely you would be justified in affirming that supernatural events are the least probable explanation.




in this context with probable, I simply mean that there is a realistic possibility.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:58 pm
leroyPosts: 1885Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Steelmage99 wrote:If I make 100 (or however many you would like) rather mundane, but totally verifiable, claims about myself, would you then believe my 101st outlandish extreme claim about me?

Only if I have good reasons to reject that claim.

but to say that Barabbas was the name of a criminal does not sound to outlandish to me
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:01 pm
Bango SkankPosts: 199Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

leroy wrote:I´ll say that it could be taken as historical certain (or nearly certain) that Jesus did what others interpreted as miracles.

Whether if they where actual miracles, illusions or frauds is beyond the scope of the historical method........agree?


He was probably doing so called "faith healing" yeah. There are videos about those plenty in youtube nowdays. Illusion or fraud is more probable explanation than a miracle.

leroy wrote:I would like to see a justification for that assertion.


I need to clarify a bit. I meant miracles. Yes, miracles are also supernatural events, but they also are like the name suggests, extraordinary events, temporary exceptions to the ordinary course of nature, thus making them improbable events for the historians (and others). There are plenty of miracle claims in the NT.

leroy wrote:If the existence of God is at least “probable” as 99% of the world’s population would grant, then supernatural events don’t seem to be so improbable.


99% of world's population are not historians and don't understand historical method. Besides many many people claim natural events as supernatural/miraculous, for example God causing earthquakes to punish people for their sins or if some person recovers almost certain death in hospital.

leroy wrote:Only if you show that the existence of God is impossible or extremely unlikely you would be justified in affirming that supernatural events are the least probable explanation.


Sure, if you believe in existence of God then absolutely nothing is no longer impossible.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:49 pm
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