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Slavery in the bible discussion thread

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Slavery in the bible discussion thread
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thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparhafoc wrote:
Slavery or death?



That's how it was, yes. Because men have a tendency to do evil. That's why God had to do miracles to free slaves and had to personally provide for their care.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:59 pm
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:I think slavery is wrong too.


Bollocks.

If God says it's good, you fold.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
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Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:20 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:I think slavery is wrong too.


Sparhafoc wrote:Bollocks.

If God says it's good, you fold.


The only time it is ok for Atheists to consider that God exists is when they do it to blame Him for something.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:14 pm
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:If God says it's good, you fold.


The only time it is ok for Atheists to consider that God exists is when they do it to blame Him for something.



Where did I say your god exists?

Where did I say I was an atheist?

Next time, just wave your hands around at the monitor - it will save you time, give you a little exercise, and produce precisely the same degree of distraction; i.e. none.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
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Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:00 pm
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:
Slavery or death?



That's how it was, yes. Because men have a tendency to do evil. That's why God had to do miracles to free slaves and had to personally provide for their care.



Except God didn't do miracles to save all the hundreds of millions of other humans enslaved by Christians.

Magic-8-Ball says NO
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
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Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:02 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparhafoc wrote:

Except God didn't do miracles to save all the hundreds of millions of other humans enslaved by Christians.

Magic-8-Ball says NO


After freeing the slaves in Egypt, God never again did any other miracles to free any other slaves and slavery continued to remain a reality for a long time.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:04 pm
AkamiaUser avatarPosts: 87Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:41 pmLocation: Alaska Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:

Except God didn't do miracles to save all the hundreds of millions of other humans enslaved by Christians.

Magic-8-Ball says NO


After freeing the slaves in Egypt, God never again did any other miracles to free any other slaves and slavery continued to remain a reality for a long time.
And you think this is acceptable... how?


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Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:25 pm
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:After freeing the slaves in Egypt, God never again did any other miracles to free any other slaves and slavery continued to remain a reality for a long time.



So the notion of....


That's why God had to do miracles to free slaves and had to personally provide for their care.


Is rather a bit more restricted as God only magically freed fictitious slaves in a work of fiction, not any of the hundreds of millions of real human beings factually enslaved by Christians.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
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Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:12 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
After freeing the slaves in Egypt, God never again did any other miracles to free any other slaves and slavery continued to remain a reality for a long time.


Akamia wrote: And you think this is acceptable... how?


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I'm going to soon start a new thread on this very typical style of argument used on this forum: God is bad for not doing miracle X in order to prevent Y from happening.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:56 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparhafoc wrote:Is rather a bit more restricted as God only magically freed fictitious slaves in a work of fiction


There have already been so many historical truths that have been discovered which were originally first revealed to us in the Bible that I don't see any reason to consider the Bible a "work of fiction".

Interestingly enough the price of a slave as recorded in the Bible through several time periods is supported by external sources dating to that specific time period. Virtually every athiest one this forum, when trying to discredit the Bible will say the story about Joseph(who ended up in Egypt) being sold into slavery for 20 sheckels(1/3 of a mina) was written about... 870 years afterwards.

Probably now you will give some stupid argument like "God should have miraculously made the price 1 million sheckels" or something like that.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:02 pm
AkamiaUser avatarPosts: 87Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:41 pmLocation: Alaska Gender: Time Lord

Post Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
I'm going to soon start a new thread on this very typical style of argument used on this forum: God is bad for not doing miracle X in order to prevent Y from happening.
You’re missing the point.

I’m just trying to figure out why you worship this guy. Why you think he’s “good” even. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The way this particular thing played out, it sounds like Superman saves group X from being crushed under a huge building... and then never saves anyone else from falling buildings (or anything else, for that matter) again. Not even trying.

I sincerely doubt Superman has gained the respect he has throughout his years in DC Comics by following your god’s example.

I didn’t say your god was “bad”, but he certainly doesn’t meaningfully seem “good” either.


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Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:25 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Akamia wrote:
The way this particular thing played out, it sounds like Superman saves group X from being crushed under a huge building.


It does not sound anything like that. Have you even ever read about this in the Bible? Interestingly enough, the Bible does give an account of people being crushed under a building in the New Testement, while Jesus was walking around on earth. And they died.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Last edited by thenexttodie on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:52 pm
AkamiaUser avatarPosts: 87Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:41 pmLocation: Alaska Gender: Time Lord

Post Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
Akamia wrote:
The way this particular thing played out, it sounds like Superman saves group X from being crushed under a huge building.


It does not sound anything like that. Have you even ever read about this in the Bible?
Again, you miss the point.
Whether I read the Bible or not is irrelevant in this particular case; according to you, once the (fictitious) Hebrew slaves in Egypt were freed, your god never bothered to liberate anyone else afterward. That’s the same kind of behavior as Superman saving one group of people from some disaster and never doing it again.


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The very thing that gives us humans our advanced cognitive abilities can also be our greatest weakness.
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:01 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Akamia wrote:
The way this particular thing played out, it sounds like Superman saves group X from being crushed under a huge building.


thenexttodie wrote:It does not sound anything like that. Have you even ever read about this in the Bible?
Akamia wrote:Again, you miss the point.
Whether I read the Bible or not is irrelevant in this particular case; according to you, once the (fictitious) Hebrew slaves in Egypt were freed, your god never bothered to liberate anyone else afterward. That’s the same kind of behavior as Superman saving one group of people from some disaster and never doing it again.


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I understand your point that God should be like Superman, flying around the world and preventing every sort of injustice or calamity.

My point is that the Bible does not give an account of a Superman-like intevention, where you suggest that it does, in the case of freeing slaves from Egypt. Do you understand that?
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:19 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 838Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:[My point is that the Bible does not give an account of a Superman-like intevention, where you suggest that it does, in the case of freeing slaves from Egypt. Do you understand that?

I'm afraid he's got you there Akamia, there are no superman-like intervention.

Superman would have freed the Israëlites from slavery without killing anyone. Yaweh plagued and massacred the Egyptians.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:08 pm
AkamiaUser avatarPosts: 87Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:41 pmLocation: Alaska Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

MarsCydonia wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:[My point is that the Bible does not give an account of a Superman-like intevention, where you suggest that it does, in the case of freeing slaves from Egypt. Do you understand that?

I'm afraid he's got you there Akamia, there are no superman-like intervention.

Superman would have freed the Israëlites from slavery without killing anyone. Yaweh plagued and massacred the Egyptians.
This is something I am acutely aware of, and it is part of my point; what exactly about this god character is “good” to him? He definitely doesn’t act “good” in any way I could imagine.


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Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
thenexttodie wrote:
After freeing the slaves in Egypt, God never again did any other miracles to free any other slaves and slavery continued to remain a reality for a long time.


Akamia wrote: And you think this is acceptable... how?


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I'm going to soon start a new thread on this very typical style of argument used on this forum: God is bad for not doing miracle X in order to prevent Y from happening.



Firstly, it's you who's claiming that a) God did miracles b) that God exists c) that miracles exist.

If you think you can make a whole thread on this topic, I suggest you grasp these points first.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:33 am
Sparhafoc
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Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:There have already been so many historical truths that have been discovered which were originally first revealed to us in the Bible that I don't see any reason to consider the Bible a "work of fiction".


That has to be the most confused and convoluted nonsense I've ever read on this topic.

No, chap. Historical events weren't 'revealed' because, drum roll, by definition, history means that humans were there when that event happened. That's specifically what history means: recorded (by human observers) events.

Secondly, any even half-baked historian knows that a historical account actually has to be recorded at the time of the event, observed by first hand witnesses, for it to actually be a historical account. If I write now what happened 200 years ago, my account is not historical even if it is about history, and even if in the future people consider my own work to be historical as an example of what people of the 21st century thought about events of the 19th century.

Thirdly, it's hardly miraculous that, at the advent of writing, humans recorded events in their lives. Look around the world: post-Ice Age agrarian city states had slowly developed in centralism and population, and at this time began recording their unique histories and special magical based bullshit to account for the unknown and to humanize their uncertainty.

Fourthly, there are many supposedly historical events in the Bible which factually never happened.

From an academic perspective, the Bible is a historical document insomuch as it tells us what people of the time thought about, what they talked about, how they perceived the world... but no one (except the religious) thinks it's actually a work of legitimate historicity. Just because someone can write words into a grammatically acceptable construct, it doesn't lend the resulting sentence's meaning factuality. For the non-religious scholars who give a damn about what's true and what just reflects the content of the belief system of the studied people - external, corroboratory evidence is not optional. If we are to decide whether X event happened, we don't just read a sentence that says it did and consider that done and dusted, and no more would you if you read any other religion's 'holy text'.

From an academic perspective, you could easily justify having a sticker on the front of the Bible saying

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.



thenexttodie wrote:Interestingly enough the price of a slave as recorded in the Bible through several time periods is supported by external sources dating to that specific time period.


Shoot at the side of the barn, then paint the targets on afterwards. Always ensures you have a very high accuracy rating.

But the Bhagavad Gita says the sky is blue, therefore the Bhagavad Gita is a credible source and its contents must be true!



thenexttodie wrote: Virtually every athiest one this forum,...


*yawn*


thenexttodie wrote:when trying to discredit the Bible...


The Bible literally only produces credence for CHRISTIANS - do you not comprehend this? It's a 'holy text' insomuch as all the other religious texts are 'holy texts'.

Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

See all those 'holy texts' which you don't feel compelled to assert are legitimate in the absence of knowledge about their relevant time periods? Guess who feels compelled to claim they are works of historical truth? Yep, the religious adherents who believe those texts are 'holy'.

I am not talking about wishy-washy emotional compulsion here, TNTD - I am talking about HISTORY. The Bible, and all these 'holy texts', are not valid sources from which we discover events in the ancient world. If you are under the misapprehension that the Bible is a valid historical source in this sense, you are very, very much mistaken.


thenexttodie wrote: will say the story about Joseph(who ended up in Egypt) being sold into slavery for 20 sheckels(1/3 of a mina) was written about... 870 years afterwards.


Well, I dunno about those atheists who you so often feel the need to speak for, but I can tell you what I think: it's a fictitious story and this dude Joseph never existed insofar as we know. Now, I might be wrong (although you can be assured even if he did exist, his name wasn't fucking 'Joseph') but as there is no evidence of the dude's existence, and as the story of Joseph requires a host of unvalidated claims being given free pass, and as the story of Joseph requires several known historical facts to be abandoned, the chances are pretty damn high that I am right. You might be correct in believing that Joseph was a real dude, but your belief is based on wish-thinking and intellectual subjugation. You have absolutely no more fucking justification for believing that Joseph exists than you do for any of the other positions you stake here: because it says so in the Bible.

Your absolute faith in one position leads you to absolute faith in the Bible which leads you to absolute faith in numerous factually incorrect and morally reprehensible positions.

I find it intriguing that a man like yourself who is clearly perfectly capable of independent thought routinely refuses to employ it.


thenexttodie wrote:Probably now you will give some stupid argument like "God should have miraculously made the price 1 million sheckels" or something like that.


I'll leave the stupid arguments to you.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
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Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:47 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:There have already been so many historical truths that have been discovered which were originally first revealed to us in the Bible that I don't see any reason to consider the Bible a "work of fiction".


Sparhafoc wrote:That has to be the most confused and convoluted nonsense I've ever read on this topic.

No, chap. Historical events weren't 'revealed' because, drum roll, by definition, history means that humans were there when that event happened. That's specifically what history means: recorded (by human observers) events.

Secondly, any even half-baked historian knows that a historical account actually has to be recorded at the time of the event, observed by first hand witnesses, for it to actually be a historical account. If I write now what happened 200 years ago, my account is not historical even if it is about history, and even if in the future people consider my own work to be historical as an example of what people of the 21st century thought about events of the 19th century.

Thirdly, it's hardly miraculous that, at the advent of writing, humans recorded events in their lives. Look around the world: post-Ice Age agrarian city states had slowly developed in centralism and population, and at this time began recording their unique histories and special magical based bullshit to account for the unknown and to humanize their uncertainty.

Fourthly, there are many supposedly historical events in the Bible which factually never happened.




Many people once said that it was a fact that David never existed. Or that it was a fact that certain cities or peoples did not exist but the Bible named them and we eventually discovered them. I don't understand what your point is. I am sure historical accounts are observed by witnesses and that it is not "miraculous" that people recorded events in their lives. No argument from me there.





Sparhafoc wrote:From an academic perspective, the Bible is a historical document insomuch as it tells us what people of the time thought about, what they talked about, how they perceived the world... but no one (except the religious) thinks it's actually a work of legitimate historicity

From an academic perspective, you could easily justify having a sticker on the front of the Bible saying

"This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental."


I am not sure why you would say that. The Bible gives accounts, in detail, of people, rulers, military campains that have all been confirmed by outside sources. Lachish for example and the siege aganst it by Assyria. Was Belshazzar not the 2nd ruler in Babylon? Did Cyrus not free the Jews from captivity?

thenexttodie wrote:Interestingly enough the price of a slave as recorded in the Bible through several time periods is supported by external sources dating to that specific time period.


Sparhafoc wrote:Shoot at the side of the barn, then paint the targets on afterwards. Always ensures you have a very high accuracy rating. .


I didn't write the Bible. But I do read it.







thenexttodie wrote: Virtually every athiest one this forum,...


Sparhafoc wrote:*yawn*


Oh I forgot your Sparhafoc, the mysterious non-atheist! Congratulations. Let me know when you have the balls to tell us about the mysterious God you think exists.

What kind of a pussy are you?


thenexttodie wrote:when trying to discredit the Bible...


Sparhafoc wrote:The Bible literally only produces credence for CHRISTIANS - do you not comprehend this? It's a 'holy text' insomuch as all the other religious texts are 'holy texts'.


Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text.[/quote]

See all those 'holy texts' which you don't feel compelled to assert are legitimate in the absence of knowledge about their relevant time periods? Guess who feels compelled to claim they are works of historical truth? Yep, the religious adherents who believe those texts are 'holy'.

I am not talking about wishy-washy emotional compulsion here, TNTD - I am talking about HISTORY. The Bible, and all these 'holy texts', are not valid sources from which we discover events in the ancient world. If you are under the misapprehension that the Bible is a valid historical source in this sense, you are very, very much mistaken.


thenexttodie wrote: will say the story about Joseph(who ended up in Egypt) being sold into slavery for 20 sheckels(1/3 of a mina) was written about... 870 years afterwards.


Sparhafoc wrote:Well, I dunno about those atheists who you so often feel the need to speak for, but I can tell you what I think: it's a fictitious story and this dude Joseph never existed insofar as we know. Now, I might be wrong (although you can be assured even if he did exist, his name wasn't fucking 'Joseph') but as there is no evidence of the dude's existence, and as the story of Joseph requires a host of unvalidated claims being given free pass,


Well, sure Sparhafoc. The Bible does make many unvalidated claims. Some of which are extraordinary. I don't have evidence to give you for every thing in the Bible.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:33 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 171Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

thenexttodie wrote:
Well, sure Sparhafoc. The Bible does make many unvalidated claims. Some of which are extraordinary. I don't have evidence to give you for every thing in the Bible.


Well, then surely you should reject (or at least withhold belief in) the things that are "unvalidated".
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:52 pm
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