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Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

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Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

The article you cite, although raising a valid concern, is anecdotal in nature.

Within the first few sentences, he mentions a friend who died, before commenting:

While I can’t say for certain that his death was suicide, I can’t rule it out.

This is similar to saying that, if you know someone has died, but don't know the manner of their death, suicide's a possibility. It leads to the false belief that suicide is more prevalent than it actually is.

A article - to which both a commenter, and the author, link - is not available. However, searching the AJP website, offers this 2004 study of suicidal ideation in clinically depressed patients [N=371] by religious affiliation.

It should be noted that, given that many of the subjects in the study were already diagnosed as clinically depressed, this clearly introduces a bias into the study.

Further, the number of affiliated individuals [N=305] clearly indicates that - on a purely numerical comparison - suicide attempts amongst the religiously-affiliated outnumber those of the non-affiliated.

Having said that, the following is important to note:

Subjects with no religious affiliation were more often lifetime suicide attempters, reported more suicidal ideation, and were more likely to have first-degree relatives who had committed suicide than religiously affiliated subjects.

The religiously affiliated and unaffiliated subjects did not differ in terms of gender, race, education, or income. Religiously unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, and less often had children. Religiously affiliated subjects reported a more family-oriented social network, reflected in more time spent with first-degree relatives. In contrast, most unaffiliated subjects (74.3%) reported more nonfamilial relationships (friends and others) (Table 1).

It should be noted that suicide is statistically more prevalent in the young (teens, and those in their twenties) than older people. Also, given that this study is in America, coming out as non-believers tends to result in ostracization by one's family (not to mention the community ("church")) - which would have a major impact on psychological health.

The study goes on to note that:

The final model with suicidal ideation as the outcome variable and age, aggression, responsibility to family, religious affiliation, and moral objections to suicide as the independent variables revealed that high aggression scores, low moral objections to suicide, and younger age were significantly and independently associated with suicidal ideation. Religious affiliation and responsibility to family were not (Table 4).

Note the above!

Another study - a 2005/2008 Gallup poll - also shows a correlation between suicide and non-affiliation, although the reasons why people commit suicide are unknown due to the fact that people take their own life for many different reasons.

Bearing in mind that this is a poll, rather than a proper study, any conclusions are fraught with danger.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:15 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 203Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Then don't believe atheism has a problem with suicide.

Kinda like ostrich in sand syndrome I guess.


You didn't really read Dragan's response, did you....
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:06 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Then don't believe atheism has a problem with suicide.

Kinda like ostrich in sand syndrome I guess.

You're going with belief rather than evidence.

This is like when the Southern Baptists funded a study comparing religious and non-religious groups as to how they performed on various social/moral issues - teen pregnancy, abortion, extra-marital affairs, divorce, etc - expecting that the SBs would perform the best (amongst the religious), with atheists worst.

To their consternation, they discovered that atheists came out on top - with SBs worst amongst the religious.

As Steelmage99 noted above, you didn't read my response - or take it in.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:09 pm
itsdemtitansBloggerUser avatarPosts: 706Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:36 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

It is 4 u :^)
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:06 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Again this topic is about atheism and suicide.

Not about southern Baptist tests.

Atheist analogies does not equal the suicide problem affecting atheists.

False equivalency

You don't seem to understand what I meant.

Firstly, I replied to your original posts with two articles - one a study, the other a poll.

You essentially dismissed these out-of-hand by simply claiming that I don't believe what you claimed.

My reply was to give an example of how you approach the subject - you have a pre-existing belief that theists are better than atheists, regardless of evidence.

My using an analogy to point this out isn't a false equivalency..

Now, why don't you address my first response by discussing the two articles to which I linked?

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:53 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

Bernhard.visscher wrote:From your article:

RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children......

Kinda proves my point....

Missing the point.

A history of depression-related mental health issues associated with suicidal tendencies is the deciding factor - not that the individuals with higher life-time suicide attempts in this study happen to be atheist.

As I already pointed out - and as is pointed out in the study - suicide tends to be more prevalent in youth.

The main reasons being that they are less emotionally stable, less likely to be in a stable relationship, such as marriage; nor have children.

All of which results in a more psychologically stable person.

For example, NASA tends to use married people as astronauts - can you surmise why?

You're latching on to the wrong reason for suicide.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:57 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

You are indeed missing my point.

Those in the study came from families with a history of mental health issues associated with suicide - that's the deciding factor, not the one you seem to believe.

in general, being of a different religious affiliation than one's family - any other religion, not just non-theist - also causes psychological stress: having friends doesn't always make up for the loss of familial bonds. "Blood's thicker than water", as the saying goes.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Last edited by Dragan Glas on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:55 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

Bernhard, if - by your own admission - you're not interested in psychiatric studies nor denial of (your) anecdotal evidence, then you're leaving no room for discussion except for your claims being accepted at face value.

Your supposed solution is simplistic. Do you think Islam should be banned and/or builders of mosques should be charged more because of those Muslims who've committed suicide-bombings?

I, personally know of no atheist who's committed suicide. I do, however, personally know of a number of (Protestant) Christians who have committed suicide.

Just because you don't know of any doesn't make your claim valid, and mine invalid.

You're simply making a claim based on your own particular religious view - that doesn't make you right.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Your missing the point.

Atheists experience a higher rate of suicides.

The question is why do you think those reasonable atheists kill themselves?

I've already explained this to you.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:56 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2689Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Your missing the point.

Atheists experience a higher rate of suicides.

The question is why do you think those reasonable atheists kill themselves?



Mod Note:

When Dragan Glas' godlike patience isn't enough, you know it's bad.

It is clear that you're not here to listen, but to troll and be petulant. I can honestly not tell if it's just stupidity, or faith-induced blindness to reason. Probably a bit of both. A lot of both.

I pity the children in your educational care, and hope you behave very, very differently to them than you have here.

You are now banned for the duration of... well, until I forget your sorry existence. Shouldn't be much more than a month maybe, once all your topics and posts drizzle out of eyesight on the actives list.

Enjoy!
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:21 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 812Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

As a reply to the original question; Yes, sometimes it is.
Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:36 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3210Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Greetings,

I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression, Gnug - I wasn't losing patience with Bernhard.

Perhaps I should have repeated what I'd said in the relevant post.

In other words, they have fewer and/or weaker stabilizing social ties.

Humans are social animals - we're literally hard-wired for culture, for social interaction.

Having lost links to family, and religious communities (their church), they are more prone to psychological stress, including depression. Social bonds with friends don't provide as much psychological support as having family. That's why losing one's parents is stressful - we realize, and feel that, we're "on our own".

It should be noted that we are all prone to depression due to how our brain's biochemistry works - it's relatively easy to become depressed; the good thing is, it's relatively easy to recover. The main problem being that people can do a lot of self-harm, including suicide, when they are suffering from the most chronic form; clinical depression.

As I''ve said before, Bernhard, your claim seems to be based on a "theists are better/more moral than atheists" approach, which doesn't hold water.

I mentioned that I knew of Christians who'd committed suicide. I realize that this is anecdotal but a individual who I knew through work committed suicide - he was married with children. I - and no-one else, including his family - understood why he took his own life. He was Protestant.

The reasons why people take their life are many, and often unidentifiable - all it needs is for them to be particularly depressed by *something* and/or act on a sudden impulse to kill themselves.

Again, an anecdote.

A teen drug addict in the UK was eating chips at the side of the road with friends, when he suddenly threw himself in front of a bus. He wasn't high at the time. His friends couldn't understand what happened. A possible explanation is that, being an addict, and believing he'd never escape addiction, he felt a moment of hopelessness, and acted on a impulse to kill himself.

This is my own explanation - perhaps I'm wrong.

As I said earlier, it's very difficult to know why people kill themselves. There are some indicators known to be associated with suicidal tendencies - youth, being single, not having children; all strong social bonds - including, of course, having family to lean on - and even then they don't always protect people from suicidal tendencies, as my work colleague's suicide shows.

The idea that it's "because they're atheist" is simplistic, and - like most simplistic explanations - wrong.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Last edited by Dragan Glas on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:10 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2689Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression, Gnug - I wasn't losing patience with Bernhard.

[...]



Well, it was in reference to you saying you'd already explained it to him. But really, it was more my patience that had run out.

This was going nowhere. He was clearly infested with Faithitis, and didn't seem at all interested in listening or hearing.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:25 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

I did not have the time to comment in the past few days but it isn't the reason I stayed away from this particular thread. It is because despite how the title was worded, this thread had actually nothing to do with it.

With a title like Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?, one would think that the discussion would circle around the acceptability of suicide such as in cases of severe depression or in cases of terminal illnesses.

But this hasn't been discussed at all, least of all by the author of the thread himself.

Rather it seems the title was just a way for Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist to take a shot at atheists the likes of "You atheists sure do kill yourselves a lot".

A shot and actually nothing more because Dragan Glas actually did discuss Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist's shot by discussing societal factors relevant to the issue. But what did Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist do? He ignored Dragan Glas' points, either willfully or out of stupidy, to take another shot (with one of these shots containing factually false statements).

Even if we ignore the topic of slavery, he shouldn't have to wonder why decent people find him vile.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:33 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Your missing the point.

Atheists experience a higher rate of suicides.

The question is why do you think those reasonable atheists kill themselves?



I'll say that you should look each case individually, there is nothing intrinsic in atheism that promotes suicide.



I don't know if your statistics are correct, but if atheists are indeed more likely to commit suicide than Christians, I would atribute that fact, to the fact that Christians have an extra layer of confort during hard times.


we all (well most of us) have family, friends, jobs, goals, and many other things that motivates us even during hard times, Christians have all that + God, so if family, friends, jobs, goals don't motivate you and are not good enough to prevent you from committing suicide, Christians still have a chance to find confort and motivation in God.



this would explain why atheist are more likely to commit suicide, and this would be true regardless if God is real or just a placebo.




but in any case, this is at best a curios fact, this in no way counts as evidence for God
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:21 pm
Steelmage99Posts: 203Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

leroy wrote:
Bernhard.visscher wrote:Your missing the point.

Atheists experience a higher rate of suicides.

The question is why do you think those reasonable atheists kill themselves?



I'll say that you should look each case individually, there is nothing intrinsic in atheism that promotes suicide.



I don't know if your statistics are correct, but if atheists are indeed more likely to commit suicide than Christians, I would atribute that fact, to the fact that Christians have an extra layer of confort during hard times.


we all (well most of us) have family, friends, jobs, goals, and many other things that motivates us even during hard times, Christians have all that + God, so if family, friends, jobs, goals don't motivate you and are not good enough to prevent you from committing suicide, Christians still have a chance to find confort and motivation in God.



this would explain why atheist are more likely to commit suicide, and this would be true regardless if God is real or just a placebo.




but in any case, this is at best a curios fact, this in no way counts as evidence for God


Once in a while you come off as downright reasonable, leroy.

Good on ya.
Blunder that theists make all the time;

Pretending to know what other people think.
Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:19 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2628Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

MarsCydonia wrote: But what did Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist do? He ignored Dragan Glas' points, either willfully or out of stupidy, to take another shot (with one of these shots containing factually false statements).



False dichotomy.

He ignored Dragan Glas' points willfully and stupidly! ;)
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:38 pm
leroyPosts: 2030Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Steelmage99 wrote:Once in a while you come off as downright reasonable, leroy.

Good on ya.



I make reasonable comments in this forum all the time, the only difference is that sometimes I say things that you personally don't like or that conflict with your world view.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:20 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 880Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

leroy wrote:I make reasonable comments in this forum all the time, the only difference is that sometimes I say things that you personally don't like or that conflict with your world view.

You may keep repeating that to convince yourself but it will not convince us.
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"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:20 pm
SparhafocPosts: 2628Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

MarsCydonia wrote:
leroy wrote:*masturbatory noises*.


You may keep repeating that to convince yourself but it will not convince us.


LEROY enjoys the pretense that he's the judge, jury and executioner. Shame that such behavior makes other people think he's a turd. I am glad I don't understand the mind-set that would have someone obsessively spend time with people they possess nothing but hatred and contempt for. It's a wasted life on so many levels.
"a reprehensible human being"
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:22 pm
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