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Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

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Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?
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VisakiUser avatarPosts: 765Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

I admit that I haven't watched this myself but I'd imagine that the following is worthwhile for people interested in this topic. I mean most things Matt does are worth checking out.

Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:33 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:Even secularists will claim "human rights" exist, and that states violate these rights regardless of whether or not these rights have been codified by one state or another. So I don't see what your problem is.


Sparhafoc wrote: It's not really my problem, it's an issue with your notion. You are conflating, and consequently getting confused, by prescription and description. My point was about description - that it is like this. Your point is about prescription: what should be. When I want to say that something 'should be' - I will write it very clearly, otherwise I am making a point about what is.

The issue raised is that secularists claim human rights exist? Well, I am a secularist, and I've just explained human rights to you in a way that both acknowledges that they exist, and simultaneously explains them as existing due to humans creating them. As they are created by humans, I don't assume that we have alighted on the One True Set of human rights. I very much expect human rights to continue expanding as they have done for centuries. New pressures on society and the environment will generate importance in human rights we have not yet explored, or even consider existing.

One you can watch unfolding now is marriage equality. It's rippling around the world, and it is becoming a central issue for many interactions between states with respect to human rights.


Thank you for taking the time to explain your thoughts on this to me.

Sparhafoc wrote:So there seems to be an implicit, albeit unstated question in your reply: by what right does one state criticize the human rights of another state that hasn't codified a given human right? Of course, there can be many answers to this


There are not "many answers to this."

Sparhafoc wrote: but the one I will propose is the one that maximized human liberty is the more compelling one because essentially all rights advances have provided a widening of the circle of those privileged under the various laws of those states. When a group of people is held in any way as a second class citizen relative to the justice of that nation, then there is an issue with equality of liberty, and it is not something generally desirable. If one person can do X, then another person should also be free do X.

As such, the operating principle you were questioning is really just fundamentally about equality.


You are just saying bullshit here that you yourself don't even really believe. I never would have made such a mistake. If one person can do X, then another person should also be free to do X? You just told me in another post that only certain people should be allowed to commit suicide.








Sparhafoc wrote: For me, there are some obvious problems with a blanket affirmative, such as states euthanizing sectors of their populace against their will, mentally ill people being potentially being unaware of the weight of the decision, and children being unable (by law) to make decisions for themselves.


thenexttodie wrote:I don't have these problems, I affirm that it is always wrong to kill yourself.


Sparhafoc wrote: Then I would warn against a paucity of imagination and/or empathy.

I can produce many thought experiments where, I think, you would find it very difficult to maintain that statement.


By "thought experiment" you really mean "impossible hypothetical". I have no reason to consider and apply impossibilities to a world view.

Sparhafoc wrote: I also think that you are failing to understand that your personal opinion doesn't supersede other peoples' freedoms to choose. Even from a Christian perspective, that's a redundant notion you possess as you are categorically not the judge of what is right or acceptable: you are obliged to believe that only God is.


God in the Bible tells us to judge rightly, He says we will judge the angels and there is even a little know book in the Bible called Judges.


Sparhafoc wrote: If someone committing suicide / euthanasia is a crime according to God, then it is up to God to judge and charge that person, not you or society. There are no other victims of that suicide / euthanasia (laying aside the emotional anguish of friends and family as that presents mutually contradictory distraction), and as such, even if your God belief is right, then they are employing the free will to choose to do right or wrong in accordance with what you believe the Creator of the entire universe and everything in it decreed.


The Bible does not support the idea that everything that happens was decreed by God. If you wish to argue that it does, in a formal debate on this forum, I will destroy you. Because you are wrong.




[





thenexttodie wrote:(Do you agree...) that there is no real irremediable medical condition in which a person is in so much physical pain that he would be screaming to die for days on end? Because I think this is this picture that supporters of euthanasia like to paint. AHHH! OHH GOD PLEAASE KILL ME I CANT TAKE THE PAIN AAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!



Sparhafoc wrote:Of course I don't agree with you because it's complete baloney to state that there are no irremediable conditions which produce such pain.


Well can you name just one or two of them?

Sparhafoc wrote:Of course, this is a vast and complex topic with so many different inputs its impossible ever to generalize with any honesty or accuracy,


I don't think it is.

The rest of your post is just you basically contradicting yourself and preaching to me the tenants of your imaginary form of Christianity. I don't understand why it is Atheists feel the need to pretend they are Bible experts. They don't pretend this with any other religion. Anyway...
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:11 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 826Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:The rest of your post is just you basically contradicting yourself and preaching to me the tenants of your imaginary form of Christianity. I don't understand why it is Atheists feel the need to pretend they are Bible experts. They don't pretend this with any other religion. Anyway...

From the resident imaginary-form-of-christianity-proponent, the "christian" who rejects mainstream tenants of christianity... The irony is astounding.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:47 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:So there seems to be an implicit, albeit unstated question in your reply: by what right does one state criticize the human rights of another state that hasn't codified a given human right? Of course, there can be many answers to this


There are not "many answers to this."


Well, of course there are - if I didn't have many answers come into my mind, I wouldn't have said that there were many answers. Note I am not saying that all answers are reasonable, desirable, or logical.


thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote: but the one I will propose is the one that maximized human liberty is the more compelling one because essentially all rights advances have provided a widening of the circle of those privileged under the various laws of those states. When a group of people is held in any way as a second class citizen relative to the justice of that nation, then there is an issue with equality of liberty, and it is not something generally desirable. If one person can do X, then another person should also be free do X.

As such, the operating principle you were questioning is really just fundamentally about equality.


You are just saying bullshit here that you yourself don't even really believe. I never would have made such a mistake. If one person can do X, then another person should also be free to do X? You just told me in another post that only certain people should be allowed to commit suicide.


Your argument doesn't follow. Anyone with x set of characteristics - that's equality. We don't give 2 month old infants the right to vote, but we give all 18 year olds the right to vote, regardless of anything else about them as people. My list of characteristics delineates the set needed to have equality in this regard.


thenexttodie wrote:
By "thought experiment" you really mean "impossible hypothetical". I have no reason to consider and apply impossibilities to a world view.


No, I mean 'thought experiments' where we talk about highly plausible scenarios that actually occur in the real world.


thenexttodie wrote:God in the Bible tells us to judge rightly, He says we will judge the angels and there is even a little know book in the Bible called Judges.


The Bible also expressly warns you not to judge. Matthew 7:1-5, for example.

As for the latter sentence, yeah that's God doing the judging, ergo according to Christian doctrine, it's no place of yours to be judging other people because it is solely for God to decide.

Given that you are not a crackpot and do not believe you can intuit the mind of God - who do you think you are to deny other human beings the freedom to choose to do right or wrong? Who do you think you are to decide what God's judgment would be?

Perhaps you are mistaken. Perhaps there are times when God would be very accepting of someone committing suicide depending on the circumstances - you surely do not and cannot know.

Further, there are no express commandments proscribing suicide in the Bible - only apologetics to interpret certain scriptures to mean they proscribe suicide. How do you know your translation is accurate? How do you know that you are not misapplying a translation and thereby engaging in harm of other human beings?



thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote: If someone committing suicide / euthanasia is a crime according to God, then it is up to God to judge and charge that person, not you or society. There are no other victims of that suicide / euthanasia (laying aside the emotional anguish of friends and family as that presents mutually contradictory distraction), and as such, even if your God belief is right, then they are employing the free will to choose to do right or wrong in accordance with what you believe the Creator of the entire universe and everything in it decreed.


The Bible does not support the idea that everything that happens was decreed by God. If you wish to argue that it does, in a formal debate on this forum, I will destroy you. Because you are wrong.


1) Your response is a complete non-sequitur. Nowhere did I write that 'everything that happens was decreed by God'
2) As such, of course I don't want to argue something I didn't write.
3) Perhaps you could respond to what I actually wrote - that Christianity holds the notion that human being have free will to choose to do right or wrong, and that it is up to God to judge them.
4) With respect to yourself, I don't think you'd destroy me in any formal debate. You do not know the awesome power you face, padawan! ;)



thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Of course I don't agree with you because it's complete baloney to state that there are no irremediable conditions which produce such pain.


Well can you name just one or two of them?


I can name dozens. Note the below are specifically referring to extreme versions:

Trigeminal neuralgia. This hits close to home for me as I started experiencing this a month or so ago. In extreme cases, the pain can be so bad it causes seizures and makes people live in fear of an attack. My insomnia has redoubled because I have to sleep with aircon (I live in Bangkok) and the cold air starts it off.

Endometriosis.

Dercum's disease.

I.B.S.

Paroxysmal Extreme Pain Disorder

Various inoperable cancers.

Sickle cell disease. When this repeatedly reoccurs, it's nasty.

Fibromyalgia. I've got several friends who suffer with this, and when it's bad, it's really bad. They drastically change personality.



thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Of course, this is a vast and complex topic with so many different inputs its impossible ever to generalize with any honesty or accuracy,


I don't think it is.


Because you're grossly oversimplifying it.


thenexttodie wrote: The rest of your post is just you basically contradicting yourself and preaching to me the tenants of your imaginary form of Christianity.


Contradictions which you will declare but fail to point out? Useful hand waving operation, nothing more.

As for your contention that I am espousing an imaginary form of Christianity - you should know by now that I will always support any and all claims I make. This stands in stark contrast with your version of Christianity which appears to have bugger all to do with the doctrine or any church that I know of. In fact, you have said yourself that many churches wouldn't even accept you, so I am not sure why you're suddenly placing yourself as the arbiter of Christianity.

Regardless, if you want to dismiss something I say on manufactured grounds - have the fucking decency to be specific and give me the opportunity to source my claims. Don't pretend you get to be the arbiter by default.



thenexttodie wrote: I don't understand why it is Atheists feel the need to pretend they are Bible experts. They don't pretend this with any other religion. Anyway...


I don't understand why the 3 alleged Christians here keep calling me 'atheist' even though I've told them all repeatedly that I am not an atheist.

As for expertise - yeah, it's called study. As an anthropologist, you will find I am fairly knowledgeable about all the world's major religions both extant and extinct.

Again though, I find your sudden aggression here very odd given that you've acknowledged in the past that certain aspects of your religious belief are not standard Christian positions.

If you want to play the shell game, perhaps it's just because you can't respond effectively to what I wrote, and so you're looking for a distraction.

Either which way, given your stated desire to destroy me in a debate, I find it somewhat amusing that you don't know Christianity as well as one might expect from someone claiming to be a Christian.
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Last edited by Sparhafoc on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:47 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

MarsCydonia wrote:From the resident imaginary-form-of-christianity-proponent, the "christian" who rejects mainstream tenants of christianity... The irony is astounding.



Perplexing, innit?

Also seems out of character for TNTD for me, although other people here have expressed ideas that seem to suggest TNTD has patches of this kind of behavior.

Given the other 2 alleged Christians on this forum and their apparent desire to position themselves almost as prophets divining the will of God, I wonder whether it's brushed off on TNTD here.

Any which way, I am quite confident that I know a damn sight more about Christianity and Christian doctrine than all 3 supposed Christians on this forum put together.

As I've said before - the internet is a problem when it comes to honest dialogue. Get them round a table in a pub and see how comprehensive their knowledge is without Google. I bet there'd be a damn sight more humility in that scenario.
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:50 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

James 4:12
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:37-42
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Romans 14:1-13
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.


Is it embarrassment to be caught acting in contradiction to stated Christian doctrine? Or is it hubris that makes a Christian declare themselves saved without bothering to do as expressly commanded?

A Christian doing their religion right would know that following all of God's commands and demands is difficult - it's supposed to be - and just as when they fall off the bandwagon but assume they'll still be ok because God will know their true intent... how can they not then extend that to others who apparently have failed too?

Either which way, TNTD - you are very much mistaken. I expressly echoed the sentiment of the Bible when I wrote....

Sparhafoc wrote:I was already perfectly specific in the post you're replying to, but further, as I've already told you - I think it's an individual's decision, not yours, and not the state's. It's not something you can stop happening - you can only burden them with guilt and hatred. How about that Christian love, tolerance, and acceptance? Why do you feel it's down to you to make judgments about other peoples' lives when it's supposedly expressly God's domain?


And yet somehow... you didn't recognize it as Christianity and tried to pretend it is some 'atheist' thing so that you could dismiss it without consideration.

Are you absolutely sure you are Christian? How many tenets do you need to ignore before you stop being an actual Christian? Or is simply self-applying the label sufficient to convince God of your authentic beliefs?
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:01 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3317Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Sparhafoc wrote:As for your contention that I am espousing an imaginary form of Christianity - you should know by now that I will always support any and all claims I make. This stands in stark contrast with your version of Christianity which appears to have bugger all to do with the doctrine or any church that I know of. In fact, you have said yourself that many churches wouldn't even accept you, so I am not sure why you're suddenly placing yourself as the arbiter of Christianity.


For your enjoyment.
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:50 pm
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SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:As for your contention that I am espousing an imaginary form of Christianity - you should know by now that I will always support any and all claims I make. This stands in stark contrast with your version of Christianity which appears to have bugger all to do with the doctrine or any church that I know of. In fact, you have said yourself that many churches wouldn't even accept you, so I am not sure why you're suddenly placing yourself as the arbiter of Christianity.


For your enjoyment.



See now... the circular reasoning I can understand - it's part of the territory (God chose to communicate with us via the Bible - how do we know? - It says so in the Bible).... rather it's when the same Christian who happily uses this 'reasoning' then simply ignores all the bits in the Bible they don't personally agree with that it becomes perversely contorted.

If that's the case, then how the fuck do they ever expect someone who's not a Christian to accept the validity of the Bible as a source of anything other than a window into a historical culture?
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:11 am
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Christian reality check:

In the Bible:

No explicit proscription against suicide.

Explicit proscription against judging people.


But those who fail abominably at doing their religion get the two positions arse about tit. This is where religion as an egotistical power trip begins. The religion they follow isn't really Christianity as some kind of monolithic entity because there's no such thing. There are a plethora of distinct but overlapping traditions based in varying degrees on Christian doctrine with extended interpretational arguments (apologetics) written quite specifically by other humans to interpret the will of the divine.

People who do religion like this are really committing an act of intellectual idolatry, fetishizing their school of thought's interpretation, unaware that any and all human interpretation can only ever hope - according to Christian doctrine - to be barely a shadow of the actual intent of the divine.

Born again zealots love to talk about how sinful we are as humans based on the scriptural supposition of humanity's fallibility in contrast to the god. But somehow, their interpretation of scripture must be taken as directly mandated by the divine, even though we know that Christians murdered other Christians for centuries over differing fucking interpretations.

Fuck atheists - God's going to have a lot of work cut out for him judging those who pretended to know 'his' mind, and none more so than those who persecuted others under the auspices of their supposedly infallible interpretations.

Christianity as Fetishism.
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:42 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Sparhafoc wrote:James 4:12
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:37-42
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Romans 14:1-13
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.


Is it embarrassment to be caught acting in contradiction to stated Christian doctrine? Or is it hubris that makes a Christian declare themselves saved without bothering to do as expressly commanded?
I appreciate your enthusiasm. Especially because you are not even a Christian.

Just so you know, I tend not to quote bible verses, for a couple reasons. One reason is that I do not want to give the impression that I have every verse in the Bible memorized. Another reason is that most of the time I don't really need to. Maybe I will quote one or two verses in this post. Anyway..


So you quoted the above Bible verses because you think they show that Christians are not supposed to judge. And you are right! You win!!

lol

No. You are about half right. Romans and James deal with Christians judging each other because there was a real struggle then for gentile and Jewish Christians to come to an understanding with one another. Mostly about dietary law it seems. You guess you would like it to mean that we must be in acceptance of men buttfucking each other and stuff like that. But no, of course it does not mean that.

Sorry I did not address the rest of your post. I have to make a phone call.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:49 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:I appreciate your enthusiasm. Especially because you are not even a Christian.


It's an enthusiasm for truth, and the topic matter is irrelevant to me - I certainly see no correlation between any given ideology and enthusiasm for truth.


thenexttodie wrote:Just so you know, I tend not to quote bible verses, for a couple reasons. One reason is that I do not want to give the impression that I have every verse in the Bible memorized. Another reason is that most of the time I don't really need to. Maybe I will quote one or two verses in this post. Anyway..


I only quote the Bible when a Christian who appeals to the authority of the Bible then makes a claim that is in contradiction with the Bible. Aside from that, I might drop the occasional quote into a lesson.


thenexttodie wrote:So you quoted the above Bible verses because you think they show that Christians are not supposed to judge. And you are right! You win!!

lol

No. You are about half right. Romans and James deal with Christians judging each other because there was a real struggle then for gentile and Jewish Christians to come to an understanding with one another. Mostly about dietary law it seems.


This is only partly true, but as it is recorded as part of the eternal guide to Christendom and being saved, then you would need to be absolutely damn sure that it doesn't extend further.

Given both Matthew (7:1-2) and Paul (Corinthians 5:12), I think you have a very good reason to be cautious here as it seems rather explicit that it is not the Christian's right to judge, and that it is only ever God who can judge.

As such, my argument earlier addresses this. If God crafted a system with Free Will (tm), and that Free Will allows humans to actively choose to do the things desired by God, or to choose to do things against the desires of God, then it is between that individual and the god - you expressly have no part to play in it. Instead, you would presumably have to assume that God knows what 'he' is doing, and that 'he' has explicitly set up this paradigm for a 'Purpose'.


thenexttodie wrote: You guess you would like it to mean that we must be in acceptance of men buttfucking each other and stuff like that. But no, of course it does not mean that.


Yes, it means that you do not get to judge other human beings in any way, shape or form because you are not the judge, and it is specifically stated to be God's provenance and God's provenance alone. It's also particularly warped and irrational to judge non-Christians by a metric of how closely they follow Christian (or at least your tradition) teachings when they are, definitionally, not Christian. For example, you would have a much stronger case if you declared gay Christians to be acting in an immoral way because they at least buy into the paradigm in the first instance. For those who reject your ideology, there's consequently no onus on them to perceive their actions in light of your doctrinal suppositions and it's perverse to expect them do modify their lives in accordance with something they don't believe.

But I've already written a bunch about this and it hasn't been addressed, so I will just suggest that you go back and address these points about the role of a believer doing their religion because it seems like all the pointed bits are the bits you happen to be ignoring.
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Last edited by Sparhafoc on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:21 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

We can dramatically simplify this for you TNTD.

Do you agree or disagree that the Bible expressly states that only God can judge?
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:27 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Sparhafoc wrote:We can dramatically simplify this for you TNTD.


Thank you. I have to work a lot of fucked up hours now and I have some other fucked up shit going on in my family.

Sparhafoc wrote:Do you agree or disagree that the Bible expressly states that only God can judge?


Disagree. God has the ability to judge some things which we are not presently able to, for instance what is in our hearts. So there are things only God can judge. But throughout the Bible it is clear that we can also judge people. We can find people guilty of crimes and judge people and things as evil. The bible says we should judge with righteous judgement and not by outward appearance.

The only reason I think you want people to believe that the Bible teaches us to never judge anyone is because you are trying to defend homosexuals from Christians who say homosexuality is evil. If I were talking about not letting a convicted child molester babysit my kids you would not be telling me "Oh well the Bible says you shouldn't judge so you can't let someone not be around kids just because they are a child molester...."
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:55 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:Thank you. I have to work a lot of fucked up hours now and I have some other fucked up shit going on in my family.


Strength and honour!



thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Do you agree or disagree that the Bible expressly states that only God can judge?


Disagree. God has the ability to judge some things which we are not presently able to, for instance what is in our hearts.


Or, for example, the extreme unbearable pain someone experiences that makes their existence torturous?


thenexttodie wrote:The only reason I think you want people to believe that the Bible teaches us to never judge anyone is because you are trying to defend homosexuals from Christians who say homosexuality is evil. If I were talking about not letting a convicted child molester babysit my kids you would not be telling me "Oh well the Bible says you shouldn't judge so you can't let someone not be around kids just because they are a child molester...."



Weird.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you! ;)

What I was talking about, and have been throughout, is that you cannot assert that God would judge unfavorably someone who commits suicide. You have declared an absolute, and I am exemplifying conditionals and showing that the remit of your remark is restricted to your personal opinion, and that you are cherry picking from the Bible to justify it.

Incidentally, though, I don't often hear Christians call homosexuality 'evil' - only the crackpot fringe like the Westboro Baptist Church - usually Christians call it a 'sin' and say that they hate the sin but love the sinner.

Of course, I do not need to defend homosexuals from idiocy - idiocy defeats itself.

For example, homosexuality is not related to child molestation. Pedophilia isn't about gender; it's a sexual attraction to children. As such, your own idiocy herein defeated itself.

Sorry to be rude to you, but when you act like that, you are asking to be taken down a peg or two. ;)
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:12 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

As we're there now....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.



Explains all those homophobic Christian ministers who get caught snorting crack from a rent boy's crack.
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:20 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3317Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Sparhafoc wrote:Weird.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you! ;)


Sparhafoc wrote:As we're there now....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.



Explains all those homophobic Christian ministers who get caught snorting crack from a rent boy's crack.


Thenexttodie does love to bring up homosexuality.
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Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:33 am
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MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 826Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Weird.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you! ;)

Sparhafoc wrote:Explains all those homophobic Christian ministers who get caught snorting crack from a rent boy's crack.

Thenexttodie does love to bring up homosexuality.

He's thoroughly obsessed with male homosexuality.

We have noticed and suspect the same conclusion as the study.
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Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:23 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:Thank you. I have to work a lot of fucked up hours now and I have some other fucked up shit going on in my family.


Sparhafoc wrote:Strength and honour!.


Thank you.

Sparhafoc wrote:Do you agree or disagree that the Bible expressly states that only God can judge?


thenexttodie wrote:Disagree. God has the ability to judge some things which we are not presently able to, for instance what is in our hearts.



Sparhafoc wrote:Or, for example, the extreme unbearable pain someone experiences that makes their existence torturous?


Yes. You have made some good points. But I don't feel they are strong enough. They are mostly equivalent to proclaiming "We are all Romans and we know all about straight roads!"


Sparhafoc wrote:No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you! ;)


I have in part a certain affection for homosexuality, when it expresses a raw truth of the power of sexuality. I know everyone thinks I am picking on Bango. I am pretty sure he is practically a virgin compared to me. But I love him enough to even admit something about me which is embarrassing so he knows I am at least sincere. And I don't want him to engage in sexual immorality because I know it will hurt him.

Sparhafoc wrote:What I was talking about, and have been throughout, is that you cannot assert that God would judge unfavorably someone who commits suicide. You have declared an absolute, and I am exemplifying conditionals and showing that the remit of your remark is restricted to your personal opinion, and that you are cherry picking from the Bible to justify it.


I am a Christian. If for whatever reason I decided to just sit in my running car with garage door close until I die, I am pretty sure god would be angry with me for using my automobile to kill myself.

If you want to know if everyone who commits suicide goes to hell, I don't think so. I guess the Catholics believe people who kill themselves all go to hell. There is nothing I can think of in Bible which supports this idea.

Sparhafoc wrote: Incidentally, though, I don't often hear Christians call homosexuality 'evil' - only the crackpot fringe like the Westboro Baptist Church - usually Christians call it a 'sin' and say that they hate the sin but love the sinner.

I am sure you are aware that I honestly dont really give a flying fuck what most Christian churches have to say about anything and I am sure the few good Christian churches that do exist would never accept me as a member.


Sparhafoc wrote:Of course, I do not need to defend homosexuals from idiocy - idiocy defeats itself.

For example, homosexuality is not related to child molestation. Pedophilia isn't about gender; it's a sexual attraction to children.


That's amazing.

Sparhafoc wrote:Sorry to be rude to you, but when you act like that, you are asking to be taken down a peg or two. ;)


I bath in your rudeness as happily as I would bath in a shower of the blood of enemies. We need more rudeness! We must all take the offensive to remind the world we are fucking human beings! We are more than what the fucking TV tells us we are!

Because the world today, more than anything else, wants to repress original thought. They don't want any of us to think for ourselves. Faggots, Atheists, and Christians are all the fucking same. It is mostly the politicians and the media who are constantly devising ways to pit us all against each other.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:23 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1330Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

thenexttodie wrote:Yes. You have made some good points. But I don't feel they are strong enough. They are mostly equivalent to proclaiming "We are all Romans and we know all about straight roads!"


I am not sure that's really got anything to do with what I wrote.

To reconvene on my point here: if life becomes a continuous agony, and the victim is an adult with no mental health issues, and they are given a diagnosis by doctors that shows there is no potential cure.... then why would society elect to block this person from ending their life?

I've given my arguments as to why I think it's rational to allow people in such a scenario to be treated as a competent, responsible adult able to make their own decisions... but you've not given any counter-arguments. Is your argument solely scriptural? Or do you have other reasons?



thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you! ;)


I have in part a certain affection for homosexuality, when it expresses a raw truth of the power of sexuality. I know everyone thinks I am picking on Bango. I am pretty sure he is practically a virgin compared to me. But I love him enough to even admit something about me which is embarrassing so he knows I am at least sincere. And I don't want him to engage in sexual immorality because I know it will hurt him.


No disrespect to you or your inclinations, but loving someone cannot hurt him, and you declaring so is little short of bullying - of course, it's a supernatural threat which reflects poorly on you that you would try and dump your hangups on someone else.

My rejection of that notion goes.... If your God exists and 'he' makes human beings (and in fact, all life on Earth) have homosexual inclinations then it's far more perverse if the god then punishes them for it. What for? For failing to reject their nature?

I don't know - maybe you believe your god is a tyrant who can do whatever 'he' pleases, but again, the alleged Christian God's ontology as per typical Christian belief and praxis suggests that God is all about forgiveness, mercy, and love. This presents an unresolvable contradiction. Your God cannot be both the creator of nature and prepared to hurt that natural behavior unless it is capricious entity to the extreme.

Before replying on this, please be prepared to note that homosexuality is found throughout the natural world. Too many Christians are unaware of this and find themselves making absurd declarations about homosexuality being restricted only to humans with the implication that they are 'fallen' into sin. Unless ducks and deer, lice and starfish are also 'fallen' and can actively sin, then homosexuality is a statistically latent tendency in biological life, and thus must have been created that way if God truly is the creator of nature.



thenexttodie wrote:I am a Christian. If for whatever reason I decided to just sit in my running car with garage door close until I die, I am pretty sure god would be angry with me for using my automobile to kill myself.


I am not really sure why God would be angry with you (seems so anthropocentric), but even if it were the case here, your declaration of being Christian seems to be linked to the notion of 'his' anger. Would you not then say that the god would be less angry - or not angry at all - if a non-Christian commits suicide?

Following this notion, would God also be angry with you if you drove poorly, crashed your car, and killed yourself. Albeit an unintentional result, you still personally created the circumstances which lead to your death.


thenexttodie wrote:If you want to know if everyone who commits suicide goes to hell, I don't think so. I guess the Catholics believe people who kill themselves all go to hell. There is nothing I can think of in Bible which supports this idea.


Oh so you don't believe in Hell?

I am a bit perplexed because, several times now, you've told people that their actions will get them hurt. Each time I've assumed it was a supernatural threat about Hell. Was it something more esoteric? I don't presume it was a personal threat! ;)

Even when I was a Christian, the notion of fiery torturous Hell was utterly surreal to me - it just seems so in conflict with the overarching message of Christianity. How can a God with the characteristics ascribed to 'him' by Christian scripture actively plan and design a place of eternal torment to punish those inept, naive creatures 'he' created which failed? Even when I was a Christian, I just rationalized this away by applying other scripture suggesting that everyone would die, be raised in judgment, and then either obliterated in the final death, or held to the cosmic bosom for eternity.

Hell's such a tawdry belief.



thenexttodie wrote:I am sure you are aware that I honestly dont really give a flying fuck what most Christian churches have to say about anything and I am sure the few good Christian churches that do exist would never accept me as a member.


And again, all I can say to this is that I whole-heartedly believe that individual takes are essential to doing religion right, and that it's sad that so many Christian churches engage in this false certainty of holding the One True Interpretation.... but on the other hand, if you're going to argue a position based on the premise of the Christian god, it's a bit off that you hold positions wholly contrary to the majority Christian position. It's a bit of a moving target where your beliefs could literally be anything you say they are, and consequently, it's hard to take you as representing Christianity. Surely, you're just representing your own belief which has some passing similarity to Christianity?



thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Of course, I do not need to defend homosexuals from idiocy - idiocy defeats itself.

For example, homosexuality is not related to child molestation. Pedophilia isn't about gender; it's a sexual attraction to children.


That's amazing.


And true.

It's a damn sight more amazing how you or anyone would believe that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia.


thenexttodie wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:Sorry to be rude to you, but when you act like that, you are asking to be taken down a peg or two. ;)


I bath in your rudeness as happily as I would bath in a shower of the blood of enemies. We need more rudeness! We must all take the offensive to remind the world we are fucking human beings! We are more than what the fucking TV tells us we are!


We are indeed human beings, and that comprises standards of interaction, behavior, etiquette and the like. I don't need to agree with you to consider you an equal, intrinsically valuable human. Generally, I'd rather show that respect rather than engage in puerile ragging on each other. To put it another way, when I expressly want to be rude, I won't bother to write that it's not my aim.

However, I also value truth and honesty, so if you forward a despicable notion, I will take you to task for it... I hope you and others would do the same for me to do the equivalent of a clip round the ear and make me reconsider whether what I'd said was worthy of me.


thenexttodie wrote:Because the world today, more than anything else, wants to repress original thought. They don't want any of us to think for ourselves. Faggots, Atheists, and Christians are all the fucking same. It is mostly the politicians and the media who are constantly devising ways to pit us all against each other.


There are different worlds within this one; different cultures, different sub-cultures and institutions. I like to live abroad in a foreign culture because little is expected of me in terms of homogeneity - they assume I think differently regardless, so they're not surprised when I voice something unexpected. Similarly, I thoroughly enjoy academic institution sub-culture where numerous experts in various fields exchange ideas that are truly horizon-widening. I guess we have to make choices about the people we surround ourselves with, but we also have to make sure we're the kind of person we'd like to hang out with. I'm perfectly happy with pedantic, semi-Asperger's style experts - they may lack all social skills, but this just makes them free of egotistical bullshit. Any which way, there is more original thought occurring today than at any time in the past because people today have the tools, the knowledge, and the luxury of life-style to commit to that.
Faith is not a desirable place to make claims from. It is belief in the absence or even contradiction of evidence. If you're going to do religion; learn how to do religion right.
Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:15 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

Sparhafoc wrote:
To reconvene on my point here: if life becomes a continuous agony, and the victim is an adult with no mental health issues, and they are given a diagnosis by doctors that shows there is no potential cure.... then why would society elect to block this person from ending their life?

I've given my arguments as to why I think it's rational to allow people in such a scenario to be treated as a competent, responsible adult able to make their own decisions... but you've not given any counter-arguments. Is your argument solely scriptural? Or do you have other reasons?


I just don't think you have given any good reasons for us to legalize suicide. You have not demonstrated a need for a pro suicide social policy.



Sparhafoc wrote:No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you! ;)


thenexttodie wrote:I have in part a certain affection for homosexuality, when it expresses a raw truth of the power of sexuality. I know everyone thinks I am picking on Bango. I am pretty sure he is practically a virgin compared to me. But I love him enough to even admit something about me which is embarrassing so he knows I am at least sincere. And I don't want him to engage in sexual immorality because I know it will hurt him.


Sparhafoc wrote:No disrespect to you or your inclinations, but loving someone cannot hurt him, and you declaring so is little short of bullying - of course, it's a supernatural threat which reflects poorly on you that you would try and dump your hangups on someone else.


Dying from AIDS or other HIV related illnesses is not a supernatural threat. Transmitting syphilis and other STD's at an astronomical rate is not a supernatural threat. An increased risk of drug use and suicide, is not a supernatural threat.

Sparhafoc wrote:My rejection of that notion goes.... If your God exists and 'he' makes human beings (and in fact, all life on Earth) have homosexual inclinations then it's far more perverse if the god then punishes them for it. What for? For failing to reject their nature?


It is in our nature to hurt each other and to reject basically anything God says he want us to do. Some of us will chose to reconcile ourselves to God and He will let us live with Him forever. For everyone else, God will put them as far away from us as possible.


Sparhafoc wrote:I don't know - maybe you believe your god is a tyrant who can do whatever 'he' pleases, but again, the alleged Christian God's ontology as per typical Christian belief and praxis suggests that God is all about forgiveness, mercy, and love. This presents an unresolvable contradiction. Your God cannot be both the creator of nature and prepared to hurt that natural behavior unless it is capricious entity to the extreme.


Do forgiveness, mercy and love require moral apathy?

Maybe I could better understand you if your could explain to me what your idea of heaven or eternal paradise is.


Sparhafoc wrote: Before replying on this, please be prepared to note that homosexuality is found throughout the natural world. Too many Christians are unaware of this and find themselves making absurd declarations about homosexuality being restricted only to humans with the implication that they are 'fallen' into sin. Unless ducks and deer, lice and starfish are also 'fallen' and can actively sin, then homosexuality is a statistically latent tendency in biological life, and thus must have been created that way if God truly is the creator of nature.


Animals eat their young, Sparhafoc. They defecate and masturbate in front of each other. Are you saying homosexuals behave like animals? So it's ok? That's a weird argument.

thenexttodie wrote:I am a Christian. If for whatever reason I decided to just sit in my running car with garage door close until I die, I am pretty sure god would be angry with me for using my automobile to kill myself.


Sparhafoc wrote: I am not really sure why God would be angry with you (seems so anthropocentric), but even if it were the case here, your declaration of being Christian seems to be linked to the notion of 'his' anger. Would you not then say that the god would be less angry - or not angry at all - if a non-Christian commits suicide?


I was just pointing out the fact that I am Christian for no particular reason other than reminding everyone that I am Christian(I tend to do this from time to time.)

Would God be less angry at a non-Christian for committing suicide? I can't think of how to answer this right now. How is this important?


Sparhafoc wrote: Following this notion, would God also be angry with you if you drove poorly, crashed your car, and killed yourself. Albeit an unintentional result, you still personally created the circumstances which lead to your death.


No.


thenexttodie wrote:If you want to know if everyone who commits suicide goes to hell, I don't think so. I guess the Catholics believe people who kill themselves all go to hell. There is nothing I can think of in Bible which supports this idea.


Sparhafoc wrote:Oh so you don't believe in Hell?

I am a bit perplexed because, several times now, you've told people that their actions will get them hurt. Each time I've assumed it was a supernatural threat about Hell. Was it something more esoteric? I don't presume it was a personal threat! ;)

Even when I was a Christian, the notion of fiery torturous Hell was utterly surreal to me - it just seems so in conflict with the overarching message of Christianity. How can a God with the characteristics ascribed to 'him' by Christian scripture actively plan and design a place of eternal torment to punish those inept, naive creatures 'he' created which failed? Even when I was a Christian, I just rationalized this away by applying other scripture suggesting that everyone would die, be raised in judgment, and then either obliterated in the final death, or held to the cosmic bosom for eternity.

Hell's such a tawdry belief.


You were a Christian? Why did you decide to become a Christian back then? (Sorry to answer your question with more questions)


That's all I have Sparhafoc, though I did read the rest of your post. Sounds like you have an interesting life. I hope everything goes well with you.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:49 pm
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