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Life meaningless if athesim is true

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Life meaningless if athesim is true
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Kovacs1979Posts: 10Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:03 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

Worrying that an ant may somehow be 'worth' than him on some cosmic scoring system would lead me to assume that they believe that humans are or should be at the top. This logic would have me believe that continents score higher than people, but planets should therefore score higher than continents, and solar systems higher than planets, and so on...

I'd like to know what ranks at the top of this 'meaning' chart and what do we get at the end for having the most meaning.

Their opinion and the one that they're defending is heavy with arrogance, born from insecurity and a tinge of fear. Feeling threatened by an ants existence is pretty lame.

Personally I don't think that there is a meaning to life apart from survive and procreate but hey, that's subjective.
Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:04 am
devilsadvocateUser avatarPosts: 246Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:28 pm

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

What is the meaning of meaning?
Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny.
Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:48 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3172Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

Greetings,

devilsadvocate wrote:What is the meaning of meaning?

Depends on what you mean...

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:46 pm
devilsadvocateUser avatarPosts: 246Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:28 pm

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

is that an honest answer or are you just being mean?
Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny.
Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:23 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3172Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

Greetings,

On atheism all of our lives (yes including yours) are a waste. We mean absolutely nothing and our deaths mean nothing. It would be irrelevant what anyone believed or how anyone lived if atheism is true.

As Tuxbox has already noted, rareblackatheist, your correspondent mistakes the meaning of the word "atheism" or is thinking loosely.

"...if atheism is true" literally means "....if without belief in gods is true", and, as such, is a nonsense statement.

Clearly, he intended to say or mean "if a creator doesn't exist".

I'm often amazed that people assume that a creator is what gives meaning to our existence. Actually, what would give meaning to our existence, from a metaphysical perspective, is life-after-death - regardless of whether a creator exists or not!

I am not influenced by your attempt to equate my manhood with responding to 15 plus different comments on your website. I'm glad you felt the need to type at length about three "stupid" sentences and to post them on two different websites to get other's opinion on those three "stupid" sentences. Was it because you weren't satisfied with your own response to the statement? It's good that you felt the need to go so far to refute my statement because it implies something.

My statement was not dependent on my feelings or your feelings. It is just a logical implication that if athiesm is true then human life has absolutely zero ontological value. Our lives would not actualy matter in any real sense. If athiesm is true, than any attempt to attribute meaning, value, or worth to human life would be futile since doing so would just be a subjective illusion. Our lives would ultimately mean nothing. There would be no reason to assume that the unlikelyhood of an individual human's existence is more noteworthy than the unlikely existence of a particular ant or single blade of grass. If everything is here by random and purposeless events then nothing would warrent humans to believe that their existence is somehow more special than that of animals, plants, or objects. The universe will eventually expand to the point where there will be no planets, stars, plants, animals, or people. And the history and value of each would be ultimately worthless. So if one would like he could go ahead and enjoy life since he has it but if athiesm is true then his life is actually worthless anyway. It would be no better or worse for him to enjoy life than for him to end it with a bullet in his head.

On another point I never said that living forever in of itself makes life more meaningful or that infinite automatically means valuable in principle. so your points on these are irrelevant since all you did was present a strawman.

Whether he - assuming it's a "he" - realises it or not, his reference to a person either living their life or ending it, is a strangely-befitting allusion to Darwinian "survival of the fittest": those who can cope with the concept of a naturalistic (in the purely materialistic sense) reality will (choose to) live - those who cannot, may (choose to) end their lives.

As babies, our needs and wants are simple - survival: based on food, warmth, sleep, being loved, etc. As we grow older, our needs and wants expand, depending on our experience of life - those who have little education are "content" to simply live their lives through work, play, etc. Those who benefit from extensive education and/or travel, may realise that, the more they learn, the less they seem to know - they may be humbled by it and also yearn for some way to transcend the inescapable reality of our individual death.

We, as individuals, may seek to leave some form of legacy - as Ernest Becker posited, in his opus, The Denial Of Death - whether through children or monuments or deeds or written/spoken/filmed thoughts.

William James, in The Varieties Of Religious Experience, believed that it was "individual religious experiences, rather than the precepts of organized religions", that formed "the backbone of the world's spiritual life".

To put it another way, individuals may gain an insight into (their own) life's meaning, through a "spiritual experience". Others, however, may not, and need the group-oriented "meaning" of a given religion.

[It was this latter reality which caused Hitchens - anti-theist though he was - to not want to do away with religion per se, much to Dawkins' consternation, as is evident in the "Four Horsemen" video on YouTube.]

Perhaps, rareblackatheist, you should let your correspondent know that it is the thought of a life-after-death that gives his life meaning, and not a creator - though, like most (if not all) theists, he conflates the two. [There are philosophies which allow for a naturalistic reality to include a "spiritual aspect or plane", which allows "souls" and life-after-death but does not entail a creator.]

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:32 am
CommonEnlightenmentUser avatarPosts: 649Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:06 amLocation: Plato Crater Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

devilsadvocate wrote:What is the meaning of meaning?


What is the meaning of aggressive?

Would the following definition hold true?

One that readies themselves with energenic vigor?

Would that count as a valid definition. And what definition of vigor are we to use? Mental or physical?
There is still light in the 'Earthly' darkness. Finding light in the darkness can be more satisfying than merely seeing the glaring light of our sun. It gives us a better understanding of light and a deeper understanding of our universe.
Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:45 am
Mauricio DuqueUser avatarPosts: 25Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:44 pmLocation: Campinas , estado de São Paulo, Brasil Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

My standart answer for that is:

"No, not believing in a god dont take out the meaning of my life, just as not believing in unicorns dont take it out, but what would takeout the meaning of my life, would be if i were created by a being that only created me for me to me be his slave, and that would torture me if i sayd no; In that situation, my life would be meaningless."
No human is perfect, so everyone should think:

"Iam wrong, and if so, how i would discover that?"

But not everyone does that...

Meu canal no youtube
Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:18 am
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

To put it bluntly the meaning of life is to get as many copies of your genes into the next generation as you can, or die trying...
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Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:31 am
ProlescumWebhamsterUser avatarPosts: 5007Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pmLocation: Peptone-upon-Sores

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. Because that's all there is. What we do, now, today... Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

    ~ Some dude's sig on some forum somewhere
if constructive debate is allowed to progress, better ideas will ultimately supplant worse ideas.

Comment is free, but facts are sacred
Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:30 am
NothPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 335Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:25 pmLocation: the Nether-regions Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

Prolescum wrote:If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. Because that's all there is. What we do, now, today... Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

    ~ Some dude's sig on some forum somewhere


Googled. It's apparently from Angel (series) ;)
Still, good motto :)
Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:59 pm
devilsadvocateUser avatarPosts: 246Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:28 pm

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

To put it bluntly the meaning of life is to get as many copies of your genes into the next generation as you can, or die trying...


I think this is a big confusion. Evolution is just something that happens, a mindless process. As such, it can't have any goals. And even if it could, there's no reason to make it goals mine, assuming I have free will to say no (if we don't, then the whole question about meaning of life is pointless).
Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny.
Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:03 pm
LaurensSocial EditorUser avatarPosts: 2995Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pmLocation: Norwich UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

devilsadvocate wrote:
To put it bluntly the meaning of life is to get as many copies of your genes into the next generation as you can, or die trying...


I think this is a big confusion. Evolution is just something that happens, a mindless process. As such, it can't have any goals. And even if it could, there's no reason to make it goals mine, assuming I have free will to say no (if we don't, then the whole question about meaning of life is pointless).


Well I wasn't being entirely serious. However, from a scientific standpoint that is the reason that we are all here...
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Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:20 pm
devilsadvocateUser avatarPosts: 246Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:28 pm

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

I was thinking you might not be, but believe me, I've heard what you stated numerous times, especially from people who work in the field of or are students of natural sciences. That's the reason why I called it a "big confusion".

A good question to ask then, is if they'd rather be miserable for the rest of their lives and have children, or not have children and be extremely happy until they die. Without a fail it is the latter option everyone chooses.


from a scientific standpoint that is the reason that we are all here...


Right, but it's reason as in cause, not reason as in purpose.




Anyways, in my opinion, it's futile (and a little bit stupid) to try to make life instrumental toward some purpose. Life is not a tool.
Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny.
Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:20 pm
prycejoshPosts: 20Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:57 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

rareblackatheist wrote:
On atheism all of our lives (yes including yours) are a waste. We mean absolutely nothing and our deaths mean nothing. It would be irrelevant what anyone believed or how anyone lived if atheism is true.


What do you say when someone makes that statement or a similar one?

My reply:

This is perhaps the most disgusting thing about Christianity. Projection at it's finest. This is how he would feel if he was an atheist, he's not speaking for atheists, he's speaking for himself. Do you know why he says this? His religious beliefs have made him an ungrateful asshole. Former Indiana Basketball Coach Bob Knight once said: "If rape is inevitable, why not sit back and enjoy it" For me it's like if life is inevitable why not sit back and enjoy it? If I could not help but to be born, and to be a human and have this life, no matter if there is nothing after it, why not enjoy it? So what if there is nothing afterwards? How lucky are we to even be here In the first place? Just go back a few generations in your family tree. If Grandma before she had your mom or dad, or she met another man, or she didn't have sex with your granddad at the exact same time they did, you would not be here. It's the same exact situation with your parents. That had to be the same for many generations before your grandparents too. Even when your parents had sex, the chances of their child being you are very small. Average sperm ejaculation is between 40 million and 1.2 billion. Of all of those, you won. If you had lost, you wouldn't even know it. How could existing out of those odds be waste? For some Christians that still isn't good enough. They need to live forever. On top of that, for me"¦if it wasn't for slavery I would not be here. For me to sit around and complain that I don't get to live forever when my life only came at the expense and suffering of millions of people would be a waste.

Besides that, when did an infinite amount of something become more valuable than scarce amount of something? I just gave you the odds of being born in the first place. How can living forever have more meaning and value than living for a limited time? In sports teams usually play with more urgency and with more meaning when the clock is running out in the 4th quarter than they do in the first quarter. Why? Because the time is way more valuable when there is less of it, than where there is plenty. If every one in America had the ability to make their own legal currency, how valuable would $100 still be a valuable as it is now? No? Why not?

I can't imagine a never ending afterlife that would require the same urgency from me to accomplish goals and stay motivated like a life that I know will end at some point would require. I would love to hear the other side of that argument.

Statements like that reveal imo the reason why believers believe. They fear not existing anymore forever and it scares them. In their minds atheism can't be true only because they can't deal with the consequences of it. Unfortunately for them just because something is uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean that it isn't reality. In order to drown out that uncomfortable feeling, they choose instead the most insane fables and stories of all time, not because they are true, but because it makes them feel safe and snugly.


life is meaningless and has no purpose when your not christian because you took the purpose away which is god. his will is our puirpose. making kids or becoming intelligent are things you can do with or without god but once you complete these things you run out of purpose. a purpose has to be something you will always fulfill and will never fulfill so i ask you what do you think is a good purpose without god.
Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:28 pm
Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2719Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: Life meaningless if athesim is true

prycejosh wrote:life is meaningless and has no purpose when your not christian because you took the purpose away which is god. his will is our puirpose. making kids or becoming intelligent are things you can do with or without god but once you complete these things you run out of purpose. a purpose has to be something you will always fulfill and will never fulfill so i ask you what do you think is a good purpose without god.


It is naive to believe that purpose that can be met is not a purpose. What I would say that doing things that you can never achieve, serves by definition no purpose.
Does your life mater to you? What other purpose do you want?

And also this begs the question, what purpose do you have with God?
"I have an irrefutable argument for the existence of...." NO, STOP! You are already wrong!
Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:59 pm
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