Elsewhere on the internet...

The League of Reason has some social media accounts! You can find us on Facebook or on Twitter for some interesting links and things.

Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 12 of 14
 [ 270 posts ] 
Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis
Author Message
SparhafocPosts: 1333Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

he_who_is_nobody wrote:That would require evidence of design and not just assertions on your part.


It's amazing that an entire argument based on the contention of there being evidence for design is also permanently unwilling and incapable of offering any standardized metric that could be used to infer designedness.

As I've said before - one wonders why Creationist/IDers find it so hard. I mean, LEROY, obviously - he has never once been able to support a single instance of any drivel that's splurted from his figurative mouth. But why can't supposedly Creation-scientists (those whose effluent the likes of LEROY uncritically regurgitates) provide a robust metric of inferred design?

Science employs metrics of designedness in archaeology and physical anthropology, for example - these are direct observations which tally with known physical forces, such as sequential percussion bulbs on stone from being struck by an ancient forebear - a good archaeologist can see human implements where others would see only stones, and a good knowledge of archaeology or physical anthropology focused on discovering stone tools would be able to provide a coherent and comprehensive list of traits which would allow another person to employ the metric and test it independently.

Why can't Creationists do this with their supposed universal design?

At most, all one ever hears is an appeal to incredulity: but it's so complex - how could it have happened by chance?

But complexity is not a metric of designedness - in fact, any metric purporting to be able to detect designedness would be obligated to assume parsimony as a fundamental basis for the inferences. And of course, we see complexity arising from simple interactions all the fucking time, and there appears to be no need for a god tweaking each atom, or tugging on their quarks.

Rather, the true reason why Creationists/IDers and their propaganda outlets offer no metric at all is because they cannot produce any coherent metric that doesn't require preconceived belief; their assertion is rested squarely on a faith position which allows only corroboratory evidence, and must reject anything which fails to reflect their desired preconception.

My favourite example of this is the appeal to beauty, where wooists wibble on about the wonder of trees, of the beauty of birds singing, and the miracle of birth... while completely ignoring that forests are essentially battle-grounds where wars are waged on timescales greater than human lives, where bird song is basically one male telling another male to fuck off, and the 'miracle' of birth has historically killed ridiculous numbers of women and infants, where infants can be conceived and born with genetic defects, and the vast majority of life on this planet enters the world ready to run from the nearest predator.

The rub is that Creationist/IDers claim there is evidence of design in the world, but then they don't want to infer design when it comes to cancer, disease, parasitism, genetic deformity, depredation, natural disasters of any of the innumerable horrifying events than can happen to a living, feeling creature in a supposedly designed universe.

All the knowledge - the well-established complex interrogations of the universe, of the world around us, and of the real physical predicament humans are in is just brushed away - who needs to care about reality when there's an utterly stupefying magical hero-myth to subscribe to?
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:24 pm
leroyPosts: 1744Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

Sparhafoc wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:That would require evidence of design and not just assertions on your part.


It's amazing that an entire argument based on the contention of there being evidence for design is also permanently unwilling and incapable of offering any standardized metric that could be used to infer designedness.

As I've said before - one wonders why Creationist/IDers find it so hard. I mean, LEROY, obviously - he has never once been able to support a single instance of any drivel that's splurted from his figurative mouth. But why can't supposedly Creation-scientists (those whose effluent the likes of LEROY uncritically regurgitates) provide a robust metric of inferred design?



yes in fact they do offer a metric.

sometimes they call it specified complexity.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:22 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

leroy wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:But why can't supposedly Creation-scientists (those whose effluent the likes of LEROY uncritically regurgitates) provide a robust metric of inferred design?

yes in fact they do offer a metric.

sometimes they call it specified complexity.

:lol:
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:52 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1333Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

MarsCydonia wrote::lol:


:lol:

And this, boys and girls, is why Stormtroopers in Star Wars miss all their shots.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:16 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

hackenslash wrote:
Indeed, if you really think that god chose a book as the method of communicating his intentions to the world, then the god you believe in is an incompetent fucking moron.


How would you have done it if you were god?
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:11 pm
WarKChat ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 1182Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Indeed, if you really think that god chose a book as the method of communicating his intentions to the world, then the god you believe in is an incompetent fucking moron.


How would you have done it if you were god?


Not that I read all of it, but Hack's blog is a magnitude better, more comprehensive, coherent and in concert with reality than the bible.

So yeah, he's already done way better than your imaginary friend.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:31 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2560Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Indeed, if you really think that god chose a book as the method of communicating his intentions to the world, then the god you believe in is an incompetent fucking moron.


How would you have done it if you were god?



... in a way that worked?
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:06 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1333Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:How would you have done it if you were god?


More effectively. More coherently. Less opportunity for egregious error.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:18 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Indeed, if you really think that god chose a book as the method of communicating his intentions to the world, then the god you believe in is an incompetent fucking moron.


How would you have done it if you were god?

There are countless ways it could be improved. Even if none of these render the system perfect, the simple fact that they all constitute obvious improvements is enough:

1. An indestructible book, that way it can't be edited and contains only the original manuscripts. When copied in a printing press, the copy divinely becomes indestructible and in perfect condition with no loss of quality. God could do this, He's God!

2. When you open it, it is immediately comprehensible to you in the most appropriate version of the language you speak, through God's divine will.

3. Richly illustrated with fantastic artistry. As if real photographs were taken in the ancient past.

4. Has many more passages that encourage love, mutual cooperation, education and literacy, study of mathematics and science, personal hygiene, trade and charity, peace, forgiveness and critical thinking, in replacement of superflous crap about how many oxes or how to prepare goats and lambs for blood-sacrifices or the cutting of foreskin or how you should obey the sabbath or whatever other irrelevant nonsense.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:50 pm
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 765Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:How would you have done it if you were god?

There has been many good answers to this, but that just shows that your God really is incompetent or stupid.

He could have revealed his message even in it's current form, as faulty and illegitable it is, in all the continents, all the higher cultures in the same time. Even that would give some creadence about it's divine origin. But no, it's from one small part of the world.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:10 am
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

Rumraket wrote:There are countless ways it could be improved. Even if none of these render the system perfect, the simple fact that they all constitute obvious improvements is enough:

1. An indestructible book, that way it can't be edited and contains only the original manuscripts. When copied in a printing press, the copy divinely becomes indestructible and in perfect condition with no loss of quality. God could do this, He's God!

2. When you open it, it is immediately comprehensible to you in the most appropriate version of the language you speak, through God's divine will.

3. Richly illustrated with fantastic artistry. As if real photographs were taken in the ancient past.

4. Has many more passages that encourage love, mutual cooperation, education and literacy, study of mathematics and science, personal hygiene, trade and charity, peace, forgiveness and critical thinking, in replacement of superflous crap about how many oxes or how to prepare goats and lambs for blood-sacrifices or the cutting of foreskin or how you should obey the sabbath or whatever other irrelevant nonsense.


Cute.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:17 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

Visaki wrote:He could have revealed his message even in it's current form, as faulty and illegitable it is, in all the continents, all the higher cultures in the same time. Even that would give some creadence about it's divine origin. But no, it's from one small part of the world.


What message are you talking about? The Bible is mostly just a record of mankind's hatred and rejection of God.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:48 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1333Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:Cute.


More like.... John Donne did your argument vastly better, even poetically, several hundred years ago and it failed to gain traction even then in a more credulous era.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:48 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1333Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:What message are you talking about? The Bible is mostly just a record of mankind's hatred and rejection of God.


Human history according to a.... Christian? Is that what that's supposed to be?

Tell me - how well did the South American Indians do at their hatred and rejection of God? Only, it doesn't mention them, or the continents on which they lived in your allegedly 'holy' Bible. What about the Polynesian cultures? How did they do with Yahweh? Did the Ainu really engage in hatred of Yahweh? No, that's nonsensical make-believe.

Rather of importance are two facts here: the first, that the vast majority of the world's human population until near modern times was completely and innocently ignorant of the allegedly revealed word of God, and the second that necessarily Yahweh chose a particular people, at a particular time, from a particular area, speaking a particular language, comprised of symbols and cultural baggage particular to those tribes, and this is supposed to be an all-encompassing record of humanity's engagements with Yahweh?

Religion: making people believe the universe revolves around them since humanity evolved an ego.

Fuck all those hundreds of millions of other people - they're unimportant, but my tribe... oh, it's the special tribe, in fact, the fulcrum of the whole fucking universe.

It's a mind-virus.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:56 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:
Visaki wrote:He could have revealed his message even in it's current form, as faulty and illegitable it is, in all the continents, all the higher cultures in the same time. Even that would give some creadence about it's divine origin. But no, it's from one small part of the world.


What message are you talking about? The Bible is mostly just a record of mankind's hatred and rejection of God.

That just makes it even worse. Why even have a record of such a thing? Why not a more positive and inspiring message, rather than a depressing and pessimistic one?
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:22 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:
Rumraket wrote:There are countless ways it could be improved. Even if none of these render the system perfect, the simple fact that they all constitute obvious improvements is enough:

1. An indestructible book, that way it can't be edited and contains only the original manuscripts. When copied in a printing press, the copy divinely becomes indestructible and in perfect condition with no loss of quality. God could do this, He's God!

2. When you open it, it is immediately comprehensible to you in the most appropriate version of the language you speak, through God's divine will.

3. Richly illustrated with fantastic artistry. As if real photographs were taken in the ancient past.

4. Has many more passages that encourage love, mutual cooperation, education and literacy, study of mathematics and science, personal hygiene, trade and charity, peace, forgiveness and critical thinking, in replacement of superflous crap about how many oxes or how to prepare goats and lambs for blood-sacrifices or the cutting of foreskin or how you should obey the sabbath or whatever other irrelevant nonsense.


Cute.

I accept your tacit concession that the bible could be easily improved.

Even without actually altering it's contents. You could throw away points 3 and 4 if you don't like them and points 1 and 2 would still go a long way towards improving the bible and it's many uses and abuses through human history.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:24 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

By the way, I have to say I am surprised and disappointed with how League of reason has allowed this creationism bullshit to pollute my threads.

How fucking hard is it to move comments from one thread to their own and preserve the original on-topic discussion that spawned this thread?
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:26 pm
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2560Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

Rumraket wrote:By the way, I have to say I am surprised and disappointed with how League of reason has allowed this creationism bullshit to pollute my threads.

How fucking hard is it to move comments from one thread to their own and preserve the original on-topic discussion that spawned this thread?



Very hard.

For a forum-tard as myself, that is. I've never really gotten the hang of it.

Also... honestly? I've stopped reading a lot of.... shall we say, select posts.
My bullshit quota has limits.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:02 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

Rumraket wrote:By the way, I have to say I am surprised and disappointed with how League of reason has allowed this creationism bullshit to pollute my threads.

How fucking hard is it to move comments from one thread to their own and preserve the original on-topic discussion that spawned this thread?


Sorry, Rumraket. I did not mean to add to the derailment of your thread. But "it is what it is"

I think this board would actually be better if more people had certain moderation capabillites. Posts inside of threads could be numbered and then I think more easily moved to new threads.
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:41 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Mindboggling result of Ribosomal RNA sequence analysis

thenexttodie wrote:
Rumraket wrote:By the way, I have to say I am surprised and disappointed with how League of reason has allowed this creationism bullshit to pollute my threads.

How fucking hard is it to move comments from one thread to their own and preserve the original on-topic discussion that spawned this thread?


Sorry, Rumraket. I did not mean to add to the derailment of your thread. But "it is what it is"

Yeah I'm not blaming anyone in particular. We have all contributed to the derailment, even myself. Just surprised it isn't possible to split the thread back on the first page.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:57 pm
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 12 of 14
 [ 270 posts ] 
Return to Science & Mathematics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests