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The illusion of evolution and how it works

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The illusion of evolution and how it works
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RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:And I quote, "Therefore, on average a viral genotype carrying two beneficial mutations does not get the entire benefit individually associated with each mutation.


Rumraket wrote:And there we have it, you missed the key word. On average.

The total average effect of all double mutants was antagonistic, because the observed fitness was lower than the observed fitness of either single mutant

IT WAS HOWEVER STILL SYNERGISTIC (Wij > Wi or Wj) IN SOME FEW CASES FOR DOUBLE DELETERIOUS MUTANTS, AND STILL BENEFICIAL (Wij >1) IN SEVERAL MORE.


Rhed wrote:Indeed, when epistasis is decompensatory, both beneficial alleles involved in the interaction cannot spread to fixation in the population".


Rumraket wrote:Because their combination is less fit than their product, but this simply implies both single mutants are present, instead of a scenario where a double mutant arises against a background of no beneficial single mutants.


The only person missing the point is you. This is astonishing that you believe this research helps evolution in some way. Do you really believe that evolution is to work by a single stepping stone (mutation) at a time?!! Let me copy and paste the conclusion again, so everyone knows, so you don't twist this any further:

“Indeed, when epistasis is decompensatory, both beneficial alleles involved in the interaction cannot spread to fixation in the population, because the double mutant is less fit than each single mutant"

Only one "beneficial" mutation is able to be fixed into a population. Even if the two "beneficial" mutations were able to be fixed into a population, that still doesn't even come close to what evolution predicts. If a virus has a hard time evolving a new mechanism (which this experiment showed that it cannot with double mutants), how do you explain a single cell turn into a giraffe in the evolutionary time span given?!!!

And how about small populations that makes up most of the animal kingdom? For example, according to ToE humans and apes shared a common ancestor 10 million years ago. If we have a generation of 20 years, that would be 500,000 generations. Humans have 3 billion base pairs long and 95% identical to a chimp, which means we are 5% different. So 3 billion * .05 = 150 million base pairs different. So doing the math, you need 300 mutations fixed per generation.

So you are going to lecture me about how I don't understand the implications about this paper let alone evolution? These observations prove that the theory of evolution does NOT happen. Natural selection and single (maybe sometimes double) mutations are able to change an organism within its kind but obviously has a limit.

Evolution is faith-based; not scientific. And blind faith at that.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:53 am
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote: Evolution is faith-based; not scientific. And blind faith at that.

We know that makes you look very silly, so why bother saying it?
Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:05 am
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

red wrote:
Rhed wrote: Evolution is faith-based; not scientific. And blind faith at that.

We know that makes you look very silly, so why bother saying it?


How then should I say it?
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:09 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:
How then should I say it?


Since you don't know what you are talking about, you should remain silent on the issue. Just my opinion.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:05 am
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Red wrote: We know that makes you look very silly, so why bother saying it?

Rhed wrote:How then should I say it?


You say what is honest, rather that stupid.
In this case. you would need to show that there was no science leading to what has been termed "evolution". You may not know that Darwin's theory was of Natural Selection, and the word evolution never appeared in early editions of his seminal work, "The Origin of Species".
What has become known as evolution is wholly science based and to deny that would be to bastardise language for selfish ends.
Finally, you would need to need to define faith in the context of your remark, as guessing is not the same as knowing.
Would you like more help?
Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:07 am
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:
How then should I say it?


tuxbox wrote:Since you don't know what you are talking about, you should remain silent on the issue. Just my opinion.


In other words, since I don't cater to the unscientific evolutionary ways of thinking, I should remain silent because I don't understand how the fable works and gets in the way of your atheistic worldview.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:23 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

[quote="red"]You say what is honest, rather that stupid.[\quote]

What is stupid is that you believe a single cell eventually evolved into a giraffe via natural selection and random mutations. The study about epistasis for the virus shows that they couldn't have two beneficial mutations fixed into a population. This was done with large populations. This is a far cry for evolution to work. What is stupid is that you must believe that each generation of humans had to have 300 mutations fixed into a population. Real science does not support that, so this is why evolution is not only based on faith; it's based on blind faith.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:32 pm
SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed, did you read the articles you linked or just the abstracts?
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:35 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:
Rhed wrote:
How then should I say it?


tuxbox wrote:Since you don't know what you are talking about, you should remain silent on the issue. Just my opinion.


In other words, since I don't cater to the unscientific evolutionary ways of thinking, I should remain silent because I don't understand how the fable works and gets in the way of your atheistic naturalistic worldview.


It's better to remain silent than to parrot nonsense. It has been shown over and over again by the members of this forum that the Theory of Evolution is scientific yet you continue to blindly ignore it. Even the Pope says God is not a magician.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:38 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

SpecialFrog wrote:Rhed, did you read the articles you linked or just the abstracts?


I understand it, but I also understand you cannot accept it because it doesn't agree with your worldview.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:40 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

tuxbox wrote:It's better to remain silent than to parrot nonsense. It has been shown over and over again by the members of this forum that the Theory of Evolution is scientific yet you continue to blindly ignore it. Even the Pope says God is not a magician.


I never thought God as a magician. Christians don't believe that either, so I'm glad the pope is on the same page.

Science is against evolution, so please stop calling it scientific. Genetics is scientific. Biology is scientific. Cosmology is scientific. The ToE is not. It's based on blind faith.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:45 pm
SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:Rhed, did you read the articles you linked or just the abstracts?

I understand it, but I also understand you cannot accept it because it doesn't agree with your worldview.

I haven't read them yet so I don't know if you are correct or not. If evolution were falsified it wouldn't be s problem for my worldview.

However, I notice you didn't answer the question. If you only read the abstract why are you sure you understand it?
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:04 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:
tuxbox wrote:It's better to remain silent than to parrot nonsense. It has been shown over and over again by the members of this forum that the Theory of Evolution is scientific yet you continue to blindly ignore it. Even the Pope says God is not a magician.


I never thought God as a magician. Christians don't believe that either, so I'm glad the pope is on the same page.

Science is against evolution, so please stop calling it scientific. Genetics is scientific. Biology is scientific. Cosmology is scientific. The ToE is not. It's based on blind faith.


Firstly, the Pope is a Christian. Secondly he believes in evolution and the Big Bang. Thirdly, if you think God spoke life into existence, then you believe in magic.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:25 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

SpecialFrog wrote:However, I notice you didn't answer the question. If you only read the abstract why are you sure you understand it?


The full text is there (i.e. methods, materials used, and the results), as well as the figures and tables.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:30 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

tuxbox wrote:Firstly, the Pope is a Christian. Secondly he believes in evolution and the Big Bang. Thirdly, if you think God spoke life into existence, then you believe in magic.


A magician performs magic tricks. Keyword is "tricks". Evolutionist are the ones who squeeze good science out of Darwinian storytelling. To believe random mutations and natural selection is responsible for all the diversity in life is magic. The OP describes what happens science doesn't agree with evolution. See all of the rescuing devices.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:39 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:A magician performs magic tricks. Keyword is "tricks".


A mythic magician, like your God is someone with magical powers. Get a dictionary.

Rhed wrote: Evolutionist are the ones who squeeze good science out of Darwinian storytelling.


The Theory of Evolution goes far beyond Darwin. There have been numerous discoveries since the 19th century.


Rhed wrote:To believe random mutations and natural selection is responsible for all the diversity in life is magic. The OP describes what happens science doesn't agree with evolution. See all of the rescuing devices.


Inferno pretty much destroyed your OP.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:03 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:07 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatar
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Posts: 3140Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed believes a god miraculously creating things out of nothing is not magic, but believes things based on observed naturally occurring principles are magic. Basically, he is a pot calling the silverware black. Rhed is making basic mistakes like this, yet expects people to take him seriously.

Just one recent example is his fascination with this one article. The article does show that for this virus positive mutations becoming fixed in their population was rare, but as Rumraket pointed out, it still would happen. Something being rare does not make it impossible, which is what Rhed is trying to imply. Now Rhed will stick here and quote from that single article repeatedly instead of acknowledging that, although rare, positive mutations were still fixed in these viruses. Rhed will stick with this one article instead of addressing other articles that show fixation of mutations can happen quite easily, as Rumraket also pointed out and Rhed ignored.
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Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:42 pm
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SpecialFrogUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 pmLocation: Great White North Gender: Tree

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:
SpecialFrog wrote:However, I notice you didn't answer the question. If you only read the abstract why are you sure you understand it?


The full text is there (i.e. methods, materials used, and the results), as well as the figures and tables.

And yet you still are not indicating whether or not you read the whole paper.
"Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest" -- Albert Szent-Gyrgyi
Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:13 pm
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: The illusion of evolution and how it works

Rhed wrote:A magician performs magic tricks. Keyword is "tricks". Evolutionist are the ones who squeeze good science out of Darwinian storytelling. To believe random mutations and natural selection is responsible for all the diversity in life is magic. The OP describes what happens science doesn't agree with evolution. See all of the rescuing devices.

There is no class of scientists who call themselves purely "evolutionists". However, there are many scientists who make contributions to our collective knowledge, and their findings continue to support evolutionary theory.
So you really have no idea about how science happens, which we all know, but you would never admit.
And maybe we will be lucky and one of your "rescuing devices" will overwhelm your stupidity.
Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:13 pm
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