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The Elshamah mega-thread

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The Elshamah mega-thread
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hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2204Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:This is my last post here at this forum

Read John 3.16.

Its the key to spend eternity in heaven.


Here's a response I prepared earlier:
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Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:29 pm
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 677Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:This is my last post here at this forum

Read John 3.16.

Its the key to spend eternity in heaven.

Firstly, it shows hubris that you don't even provide the part of the Bible you are quoting but only the verse number. Most of us don't bother with memorizing parts of that silly book. Luckily we have the internet and google, so....

John 3:16 wrote:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

There. With context. Witch is that Jesus is pwning a guy called Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. I can't see any übernatural truths in that, just platitudes and a bit of whining. On top of that I really always wonder why Christians bother quoting the Bible to me. I do not think that book is divinely inspired, I do not take it's word as "Truth", I appraise it's content on it's own merit and I have no reason to believe that's it is more important or credible than other religious texts.

Why do these conversations, as they are, usually end up with Bible quotes? Is it a kind of surrender? Admission that they don't have any more arguments or points? Or that they never had any?

I like Austin 3:16 more, to be honest.
Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:05 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 128Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Visaki wrote:
Elshamah wrote:This is my last post here at this forum

Read John 3.16.

Its the key to spend eternity in heaven.

Firstly, it shows hubris that you don't even provide the part of the Bible you are quoting but only the verse number. Most of us don't bother with memorizing parts of that silly book. Luckily we have the internet and google, so....

John 3:16 wrote:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

There. With context. Witch is that Jesus is pwning a guy called Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. I can't see any übernatural truths in that, just platitudes and a bit of whining. On top of that I really always wonder why Christians bother quoting the Bible to me. I do not think that book is divinely inspired, I do not take it's word as "Truth", I appraise it's content on it's own merit and I have no reason to believe that's it is more important or credible than other religious texts.

Why do these conversations, as they are, usually end up with Bible quotes? Is it a kind of surrender? Admission that they don't have any more arguments or points? Or that they never had any?

I like Austin 3:16 more, to be honest.



A bit earlier in the text Jesus is explaining "born again" stuff to Nicodemus, which Nicodemus misunderstoods due the double meaning of the greek word "again", which can also mean "from above". His confusion would only be warranted if their conversation was made in greek, not in Aramaic language which is the language Jesus and Nicodemus would be speaking. Thus conversation with Nicodemus unlikely never took place and instead it's a christian fan fiction made by later greek speaking convert who didn't understand aramaic.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:54 pm
WarKChat ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 1169Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Bango Skank wrote:
A bit earlier in the text Jesus is explaining "born again" stuff to Nicodemus, which Nicodemus misunderstoods due the double meaning of the greek word "again", which can also mean "from above". His confusion would only be warranted if their conversation was made in greek, not in Aramaic language which is the language Jesus and Nicodemus would be speaking. Thus conversation with Nicodemus unlikely never took place and instead it's a christian fan fiction made by later greek speaking convert who didn't understand aramaic.


So Elshamah's last act on this forum was to show us all how bible is just a book of fiction? Poor guy, he gets burned by everything he touches. Everything seems to blow up in his face. No matter where he aims he seems to be shooting his own foot each time he fires. It's as though reality conspired against him. Oh well.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:22 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 128Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

WarK wrote:
Bango Skank wrote:
A bit earlier in the text Jesus is explaining "born again" stuff to Nicodemus, which Nicodemus misunderstoods due the double meaning of the greek word "again", which can also mean "from above". His confusion would only be warranted if their conversation was made in greek, not in Aramaic language which is the language Jesus and Nicodemus would be speaking. Thus conversation with Nicodemus unlikely never took place and instead it's a christian fan fiction made by later greek speaking convert who didn't understand aramaic.


So Elshamah's last act on this forum was to show us all how bible is just a book of fiction? Poor guy, he gets burned by everything he touches. Everything seems to blow up in his face. No matter where he aims he seems to be shooting his own foot each time he fires. It's as though reality conspired against him. Oh well.


Sorry, english is not my native language. Should i say "unlikely never took place" or "likely never took place" ?
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:45 pm
WarKChat ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 1169Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Bango Skank wrote:Sorry, english is not my native language. Should i say "unlikely never took place" or "likely never took place" ?


Same here when it comes to English, I think it's "unlikely ever took place" or "likely never took place". But I got the meaning. In the end, Elshamah pointed to a passage in the bible which shows it's fiction. Though I doubt that was his intent.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:53 pm
CollecemallPosts: 324Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:53 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

If we are quoting fiction this one is much better IMO. "It is my belief that the truth is generally preferable to lies." — Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
"Every man is a creature of the age in which he lives, and few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of their time."
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ~~Voltaire
Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:56 pm
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 677Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Bango Skank wrote:A bit earlier in the text Jesus is explaining "born again" stuff to Nicodemus, which Nicodemus misunderstoods due the double meaning of the greek word "again", which can also mean "from above". His confusion would only be warranted if their conversation was made in greek, not in Aramaic language which is the language Jesus and Nicodemus would be speaking. Thus conversation with Nicodemus unlikely never took place and instead it's a christian fan fiction made by later greek speaking convert who didn't understand aramaic.

I know that there are a few things like this in the New Testament that make sense only if the original was in Greek but I didn't remember this was on of them. So thanks for teaching me something.

Though I think just labeling this as a fan fic is probably somewhat wrong. I'd rather say that the writer used the characters to explain his views on the subject. Kinda like Plato using the death scene of Socrates in Phaedo. The important part is what is being said, not really if the story is actually true. Unfortenately this is lost on many believers.
Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:06 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3165Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Bango Skank wrote:A bit earlier in the text Jesus is explaining "born again" stuff to Nicodemus, which Nicodemus misunderstoods due the double meaning of the greek word "again", which can also mean "from above". His confusion would only be warranted if their conversation was made in greek, not in Aramaic language which is the language Jesus and Nicodemus would be speaking. Thus conversation with Nicodemus unlikely never took place and instead it's a christian fan fiction made by later greek speaking convert who didn't understand aramaic.


Do you have a citation for this? I have never heard this before and thanks in advance.
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:06 pm
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Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 128Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Bango Skank wrote:A bit earlier in the text Jesus is explaining "born again" stuff to Nicodemus, which Nicodemus misunderstoods due the double meaning of the greek word "again", which can also mean "from above". His confusion would only be warranted if their conversation was made in greek, not in Aramaic language which is the language Jesus and Nicodemus would be speaking. Thus conversation with Nicodemus unlikely never took place and instead it's a christian fan fiction made by later greek speaking convert who didn't understand aramaic.


Do you have a citation for this? I have never heard this before and thanks in advance.


Bart Ehrman talks about this in his book "Jesus, Interrupted" (page 155).

Also, for example check the footnotes on this: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3:3
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:18 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3165Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Bango Skank wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Do you have a citation for this? I have never heard this before and thanks in advance.


Bart Ehrman talks about this in his book "Jesus, Interrupted" (page 155).

Also, for example check the footnotes on this: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3:3


Perfect. Thanks again.
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:32 pm
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hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2204Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Bango Skank wrote:Sorry, english is not my native language. Should i say "unlikely never took place" or "likely never took place" ?


In that sentence 'likely never took place'.

'Unlikely never took place' contains a double negative (unlikely and never), so it says the opposite of what you're after, namely that it not having taken place is improbable.
Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:06 pm
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