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The Elshamah mega-thread

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The Elshamah mega-thread
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2745Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Greetings,

So, you cite a philosopher who attempts to defend Behe's IC along with ID.

Here's a scientific paper explaining just one way of how membranes can form.

Properties of Random Complex Chemical Reaction Networks and Their Relevance to Biological Toy Models

And you still haven't answered my question.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:41 pm
DutchLiam84User avatarPosts: 382Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:27 pmLocation: Eurasian Plate Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

This is so typical of a creationist:
1. Creationist makes mistake!
2. Creationist gets ass handed to him/her.
3. Creationist leaves for a couple weeks.
4. Creationist comes back, ignores mistake.
5. Creationist continues like he/she knows better than anyone else.
Nom...I bewieeeeeve....nom nom nom...I have faith in Eviwution
You can find me in Montreal, in a bitching arcade! I'm proud of my gun, and I pood in space!
Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:35 pm
WWW
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

So, you cite a philosopher who attempts to defend Behe's IC along with ID.

Here's a scientific paper explaining just one way of how membranes can form.

Properties of Random Complex Chemical Reaction Networks and Their Relevance to Biological Toy Models

And you still haven't answered my question.

Kindest regards,

James


Do you even understand their paper ?
Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:13 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2745Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

So, you cite a philosopher who attempts to defend Behe's IC along with ID.

Here's a scientific paper explaining just one way of how membranes can form.

Properties of Random Complex Chemical Reaction Networks and Their Relevance to Biological Toy Models

And you still haven't answered my question.

Kindest regards,

James


Do you even understand their paper ?

Yes.

And I'm still awaiting your answer to my question from 29 November.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:54 am
RumraketUser avatar
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Posts: 973Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:The Interdependency of Lipid Membranes and Membrane Proteins 1

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... e-proteins

even in the simplest cells, the membrane is a biological device of a staggering complexity that carries diverse protein complexes mediating energy-dependent – and tightly regulated - import and export of metabolites and polymers

Remarkably, even the author of the book: Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV. asks the readers:

Hence a chicken and egg paradox: a lipid membrane would be useless without membrane proteins but how could membrane proteins have evolved in the absence of functional membranes?

Fatty acid membranes.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:38 am
RumraketUser avatar
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Posts: 973Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Here’s a few articles on the subject from the Szostak lab, which has been very active in this area: http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Budin_et_al_2011_PNAS.pdf
Physical effects underlying the transition from primitive to modern cell membranes.
Budin I, Szostak JW.

Abstract
To understand the emergence of Darwinian evolution, it is necessary to identify physical mechanisms that enabled primitive cells to compete with one another. Whereas all modern cell membranes are composed primarily of diacyl or dialkyl glycerol phospholipids, the first cell membranes are thought to have self-assembled from simple, single-chain lipids synthesized in the environment. We asked what selective advantage could have driven the transition from primitive to modern membranes, especially during early stages characterized by low levels of membrane phospholipid.
Here we demonstrate that surprisingly low levels of phospholipids can drive protocell membrane growth during competition for single-chain lipids. Growth results from the decreasing fatty acid efflux from membranes with increasing phospholipid content. The ability to synthesize phospholipids from single-chain substrates would have therefore been highly advantageous for early cells competing for a limited supply of lipids. We show that the resulting increase in membrane phospholipid content would have led to a cascade of new selective pressures for the evolution of metabolic and transport machinery to overcome the reduced membrane permeability of diacyl lipid membranes. The evolution of phospholipid membranes could thus have been a deterministic outcome of intrinsic physical processes and a key driving force for early cellular evolution.

Chance or necessity? Turns out it's necessity!

In the paper above, you will find multiple references to previous work too, such as:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18528332
Template-directed synthesis of a genetic polymer in a model protocell.
Mansy SS1, Schrum JP, Krishnamurthy M, Tobé S, Treco DA, Szostak JW.

Abstract
Contemporary phospholipid-based cell membranes are formidable barriers to the uptake of polar and charged molecules ranging from metal ions to complex nutrients. Modern cells therefore require sophisticated protein channels and pumps to mediate the exchange of molecules with their environment. The strong barrier function of membranes has made it difficult to understand the origin of cellular life and has been thought to preclude a heterotrophic lifestyle for primitive cells. Although nucleotides can cross dimyristoyl phosphatidylcholine membranes through defects formed at the gel-to-liquid transition temperature, phospholipid membranes lack the dynamic properties required for membrane growth. Fatty acids and their corresponding alcohols and glycerol monoesters are attractive candidates for the components of protocell membranes because they are simple amphiphiles that form bilayer membrane vesicles that retain encapsulated oligonucleotides and are capable of growth and division.
Here we show that such membranes allow the passage of charged molecules such as nucleotides, so that activated nucleotides added to the outside of a model protocell spontaneously cross the membrane and take part in efficient template copying in the protocell interior. The permeability properties of prebiotically plausible membranes suggest that primitive protocells could have acquired complex nutrients from their environment in the absence of any macromolecular transport machinery; that is, they could have been obligate heterotrophs.

Uh-oh, looks like this rams a veritable freight-train of uncomfortable facts straight through your constant arguments from ignorance.

http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Engelhart_et_al_2016_NatChem.pdf
A simple physical mechanism enables homeostasis in primitive cells
Engelhart AE, Adamala KP, Szostak JW.

Abstract
The emergence of homeostatic mechanisms that enable maintenance of an intracellular steady state during growth was critical to the advent of cellular life. Here, we show that concentration-dependent reversible binding of short oligonucleotides, of both specific and random sequence, can modulate ribozyme activity. In both cases, catalysis is inhibited at high concentrations, and dilution activates the ribozyme via inhibitor dissociation, thus maintaining near-constant ribozyme specific activity throughout protocell growth. To mimic the result of RNA synthesis within non-growing protocells, we co-encapsulated high concentrations of ribozyme and oligonucleotides within fatty acid vesicles, and ribozyme activity was inhibited. Following vesicle growth, the resulting internal dilution produced ribozyme activation. This simple physical system enables a primitive homeostatic behaviour: the maintenance of constant ribozyme activity per unit volume during protocell volume changes. We suggest that such systems, wherein short oligonucleotides reversibly inhibit functional RNAs, could have preceded sophisticated modern RNA regulatory mechanisms, such as those involving miRNAs.


http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Adamala_et_al_2016_Nat_Commun.pdf
Collaboration between primitive cell membranes and soluble catalysts.
Adamala KP, Engelhart AE, Szostak JW.

Abstract
One widely held model of early life suggests primitive cells consisted of simple RNA-based catalysts within lipid compartments. One possible selective advantage conferred by an encapsulated catalyst is stabilization of the compartment, resulting from catalyst-promoted synthesis of key membrane components. Here we show model protocell vesicles containing an encapsulated enzyme that promotes the synthesis of simple fatty acid derivatives become stabilized to Mg(2+), which is required for ribozyme activity and RNA synthesis. Thus, protocells capable of such catalytic transformations would have enjoyed a selective advantage over other protocells in high Mg(2+) environments. The synthetic transformation requires both the catalyst and vesicles that solubilize the water-insoluble precursor lipid. We suggest that similar modified lipids could have played a key role in early life, and that primitive lipid membranes and encapsulated catalysts, such as ribozymes, may have acted in conjunction with each other, enabling otherwise-impossible chemical transformations within primordial cells.


This last one is a theoretical paper using the findings of experiments such as the ones above here, to build a model for the emergence of cells:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27529283
A Self-Assembled Aggregate Composed of a Fatty Acid Membrane and the Building Blocks of Biological Polymers Provides a First Step in the Emergence of Protocells.
Black RA, Blosser MC.

Abstract
We propose that the first step in the origin of cellular life on Earth was the self-assembly of fatty acids with the building blocks of RNA and protein, resulting in a stable aggregate. This scheme provides explanations for the selection and concentration of the prebiotic components of cells; the stabilization and growth of early membranes; the catalysis of biopolymer synthesis; and the co-localization of membranes, RNA and protein.
In this article, we review the evidence and rationale for the formation of the proposed aggregate: (i) the well-established phenomenon of self-assembly of fatty acids to form vesicles; (ii) our published evidence that nucleobases and sugars bind to and stabilize such vesicles; and (iii) the reasons why amino acids likely do so as well. We then explain how the conformational constraints and altered chemical environment due to binding of the components to the membrane could facilitate the formation of nucleosides, oligonucleotides and peptides. We conclude by discussing how the resulting oligomers, even if short and random, could have increased vesicle stability and growth more than their building blocks did, and how competition among these vesicles could have led to longer polymers with complex functions.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:51 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Rumraket wrote:
Elshamah wrote:The Interdependency of Lipid Membranes and Membrane Proteins 1

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... e-proteins

even in the simplest cells, the membrane is a biological device of a staggering complexity that carries diverse protein complexes mediating energy-dependent – and tightly regulated - import and export of metabolites and polymers

Remarkably, even the author of the book: Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV. asks the readers:

Hence a chicken and egg paradox: a lipid membrane would be useless without membrane proteins but how could membrane proteins have evolved in the absence of functional membranes?

Fatty acid membranes.



The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... -scenarios

The four basic categories of molecules for building life are carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids.  Here we will give a closer look at fatty acids,  constituents of lipids, and their biosynthesis.

Lipids (‘fats’) are essential for the formation of a cell membrane that contains the cell contents, as well as for other cell functions. The cell membrane, comprised of several different complex lipids, is an essential part of a free-living cell that can reproduce itself.

Lipids have much higher energy density than sugars or amino acids, so their formation in any chemical soup is a problem for origin of life scenarios (high energy compounds are thermodynamically much less likely to form than lower energy compounds).  Fatty acids are hydrocarbon chains of various lengths. The ability to synthesize a variety of lipids is essential to all organisms.  Fatty acid synthesis requires the oxidation of the co-factor NADPH.

The major source of NADPH in animals and other non-photosynthetic organisms is the pentose phosphate pathway. Due to the complexity of the metabolic pathways, it has been argued that metabolism‐like chemical reaction sequences are unlikely to be catalysed by simple environmental catalysts.


This constitutes a serious problem for naturalistic explanations of the origin of life. The pentose phosphate pathway requires 7 enzymes, and is interdependent with glycolysis , since the beginning molecule for the pentose phosphate pathway is glucose-6-P, which is the second intermediate metabolite in glycolysis. 

Eukaryotic cells face a dilemma in providing suitable amounts of substrate for fatty acid synthesis. Sufficient quantities of acetyl-CoA, malonyl-CoA, and NADPH must be generated in the cytosol for fatty acid synthesis. Malonyl-CoA is made by carboxylation of acetyl-CoA, so the problem reduces to generating sufficient acetyl-CoA and NADPH. There are three principal sources of acetyl-CoA. The acetyl-CoA derived from amino acid degradation is normally insufficient for fatty acid biosynthesis, and the acetyl-CoA produced by pyruvate dehydrogenase and by fatty acid oxidation cannot cross the mitochondrial membrane to participate directly in fatty acid synthesis. Instead, acetyl-CoA is linked  with  oxaloacetate to form citrate, which is transported from the mitochondrial matrix to the cytosol by [url=file:///E:/Downloads/biology-02-00284.pdf] citrate carriers (CIC)[/url],  nuclear-encoded proteins located in the mitochondrial inner membrane, members of the mitochondrial carrier family.  Biosynthesis of oxaloacetate requires  malate dehydrogenase enzymes or, in plants, pyruvate carboxylase enzymes.

So all these listed functional units and substrates are required in the synthesis process. They are essential, constituting a interdependent interlocked system of the cell.

As Bruce Alberts said in 1998, the biology of the future was going to be the study of molecular machines: “the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines.”  One of those machines is like a mini-factory in itself. It’s called fatty acid synthase.

The first step of fatty acid biosynthesis requires the participation of  malonyl-CoA, a three-carbon intermediate.  The formation of malonyl-CoA from acetyl-CoA is an irreversible process, catalyzed by acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzymes. a multifunctional protein with 3 subunits, which is carefully regulated.

In the second step, fatty acid synthase ( FAS) proteins come into action. These are the little heroes of this article. FAS most striking feature is the “high degree of architectural complexity” – some 48 active sites, complete with moving parts

Which organism has one of the most elaborate fatty-acid machines of all?  The surprising answer: fungi. 
Perhaps the most striking feature of fungal FAS is its high degree of architectural complexity, in which 48 functional centers exist in a single ... particle.  Detailed structural information is essential for delineating how this complex particle coordinates the reactions involved in many steps of synthesis of fatty acids.... The six alpha subunits form a central wheel in the assembly, and the beta subunits form domes on the top and bottom of the wheel, creating six reaction chambers within which each Acyl Carrier Protein (ACP) can reach the six active sites through surprisingly modest movements.

The crystal structure of yeast FAS reveals that this large, macromolecular assembly functions as a six-chambered reactor for fatty acid synthesis.  Each of the six chambers functions independently and has in its chamber wall all of the catalytic units required for fatty acid priming, elongation, and termination, while one substrate-shuttling component, ACP, is located inside each chamber and functions like a swinging arm.  Surprisingly, however, the step at which the reactor is activated must occur before the complete assembly of the particle since the PPT domain that attaches the pantetheine arm to ACP lies outside the assembly,inaccessible to ACP that lies inside.  Remarkably, the architectural complexity of the FAS particle results in the simplicity of the reaction mechanisms for fatty acid synthesis in fungi.

To imagine this level of precision and master-controlled processing on a level this small, cannot help but induce a profound sense of wonder and awe.  Here, all this time, this machine has been helping to keep living things functioning and we didn’t even know the details till now.

The fatty acids are useless without the amino acids, and vice versa .  Even if some kind of metabolic cycle were to be envisioned under semi-realistic conditions, how did this elaborate machine, composed of amino acids with precise charge distributions, arise?  It’s not just the machine, it’s the blueprints and construction process that must be explained.  What blind process led to the precise placement of active sites that process their inputs in a programmed sequence?  What put them into a structure with shared walls where six reaction chambers can work independently?  All this complexity, involving thousands of precision amino acids in FAS  has to be coded in DNA, then built by the formidably complex translation process, then assembled together in the right order, or FAS won’t work.  But the storage, retrieval, translation and construction systems all need the fatty acids, too, or they won’t work.

We are witnessing an interdependent system of mind-boggling complexity that defies any explanation besides intelligent design.  Yes, Bruce Alberts, “as it turns out, we can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered.”  We have tended to “vastly underestimate the sophistication of many of these remarkable devices.”

The closer they look, the more wondrous the cell gets.  Who would have thought that the requirement to make these fatty acids would require machinery with moving parts and reaction chambers?  Who would have imagined their surfaces would be covered with complex proteins that regulate the production inside?  Who would have realized that fat was so important, the cell had complex assembly plants to build it?  Fat is almost a mild cussword in our vocabulary, but it is another class of molecular building blocks we couldn’t live without.  Fats, sugars, proteins and nucleic acids all work together in life, from humans to lowly fungi.  Each class of molecules has immense variety, each is essential, and each is manufactured to spec by precision machinery.  What a wonderful post-Darwinian world.

How do origin of life researchers envision the arise of these hyper complex nano factories and assembly lines to make fatty acids ? The scientific paper The lipid world says :

Self-assembly of amphiphilic molecules into complex supramolecular structures is spontaneous. The plausibility that such structures were present in the prebiotic environment is supported by the occurrence of amphiphilic molecules in carbonaceous meteorites and the demonstration that they can assemble into membrane vesicles


 Following parts are involved direct or indirectly in fatty acid synthesis, and must exist in order for fatty acids to be able to be synthesized :

the cytosol
NADPH.

enzymes of the Pentose phosphate pathway:

Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase
6-phosphogluconolactonase
Phosphogluconate dehydrogenase
Ribose-5-phosphate isomerase
Phosphopentose epimerase
Transketolase
Transaldolase

of the glycolysis pathway, at least : hexokinase enzymes

oxaloacetate
phophopantetheinyl transferases
citrate
mitochondria
The citrate carrier (CiC)
the nucleus
malate dehydrogenase enzymes or pyruvate carboxylase enzymes
acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzymes
Acyl Carrier Proteins
FAS fatty acid synthase proteins
The citric acid cycle
ATP

This paper shows the helplessness of proponents of  natural prebiotic origin of lipids. Its a hudge gap between above explanation, and the arise of hypercomplex multyenzymatic proteins, which produce fatty acids through advanced, regulated, precise, coordinated multistep factory assembly-line like robotic  procedures. 

I conclude that the make of  essential fatty acids, ingredients of cell membranes, requires interdependent irreducible complex procedures,  several different metabolic pathways in order to make the substrates and produce the energy used in the process, several enzymes, the whole machinery to make the assembly proteins and enzymes. Since this constitutes a complex interlocked process, it could not be due to step by step evolutionary manner. Fatty acids, constituents of the cell membranes, had to exist right from the start for life to arise. This fact makes the design inference the most rational one. Once its granted that a series of other cell parts had to be present and were indispensable in order for the cell to be able to synthesize fatty acids , parts which i all listed, its clear evidence that a designer is the best explanation. How do you suggest would these parts form independently, initially without function, because by their own, there is no function for them, to then by magic start interacting and become interdependent and starting working in a factory like manner, producing fatty acids? To worse the situation, the cell membrane is required in order for these procedures to be able to happen. So in order to make fatty acids, a cell membrane is required. The cell membrane however is made of fatty acids. Thats a catch22 situation.
Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:07 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Rumraket wrote:
Abstract
We propose that the first step in the origin of cellular life on Earth was the self-assembly of fatty acids with the building blocks of RNA and protein, resulting in a stable aggregate. This scheme provides explanations for the selection and concentration of the prebiotic components of cells; the stabilization and growth of early membranes; the catalysis of biopolymer synthesis; and the co-localization of membranes, RNA and protein.
In this article, we review the evidence and rationale for the formation of the proposed aggregate: (i) the well-established phenomenon of self-assembly of fatty acids to form vesicles; (ii) our published evidence that nucleobases and sugars bind to and stabilize such vesicles; and (iii) the reasons why amino acids likely do so as well. We then explain how the conformational constraints and altered chemical environment due to binding of the components to the membrane could facilitate the formation of nucleosides, oligonucleotides and peptides. We conclude by discussing how the resulting oligomers, even if short and random, could have increased vesicle stability and growth more than their building blocks did, and how competition among these vesicles could have led to longer polymers with complex functions.




What about you address the chicken / egg riddle i posted bafore.

It is seemingly impossible to have the formation of impermeable membranes without membrane proteins and translocases to shuttle essential materials in and out of the cell. Consequently, it is also unlikely that very specialized membrane proteins were able to form without a membrane initially present.

And since we are at it :

Membrane proteins were absolutely essential for life to begin. And you will not have only to explain the emergence of the proteins itself, but as well the origin of

- Assembly of membrane proteins through transolcase complexes

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... e-proteins

Secretion systems :

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... on-systems

- error check and repair mechanisms when proteins are inserted in the membrane
Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:16 am
RumraketUser avatar
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Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:What about you address the chicken / egg riddle i posted bafore.

That's what I did. That's what my entire post was about. The very first paper I link constitutes a reference for a direct empirical answer to your "riddle". We now know, through the results of multiple experiments, what the solution is.

The first membranes were made of fatty acids and other simple amphiphiles which are routinely synthesized in natural environments on the Earth even now, today. Concomitantly with the evolution of phospholipid biosynthesis, the gradual incorporation of these in the fatty acid membrane yielded strong selective pressures for membrane-soluble peptides, which in turn functioned as the precursors of the membrane transport proteins we see today. As the initially semipermeable fatty acid membranes grew increasingly impermeable due to phospholipid incorporation, the membrane proteins evolved. That's it, that's the solution.

Elshamah wrote:Membrane proteins were absolutely essential for life to begin.

As we learned from concrete real-world experiments, no they were not.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Last edited by Rumraket on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:27 am
RumraketUser avatar
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Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:The four basic categories of molecules for building life are carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids.  Here we will give a closer look at fatty acids,  constituents of lipids, and their biosynthesis.

Lipids (‘fats’) are essential for the formation of a cell membrane that contains the cell contents, as well as for other cell functions. The cell membrane, comprised of several different complex lipids, is an essential part of a free-living cell that can reproduce itself.

Lipids have much higher energy density than sugars or amino acids, so their formation in any chemical soup is a problem for origin of life scenarios (high energy compounds are thermodynamically much less likely to form than lower energy compounds).  Fatty acids are hydrocarbon chains of various lengths. The ability to synthesize a variety of lipids is essential to all organisms.  Fatty acid synthesis requires the oxidation of the co-factor NADPH.

False. Fatty acids are routinely produced in abiotic Fischer-Tropsch reactions in many forms of natural environments, primary among them hydrothermal vents.

Nothing biological is required for this.
Abiogenic hydrocarbon production at lost city hydrothermal field.
Proskurowski G1, Lilley MD, Seewald JS, Früh-Green GL, Olson EJ, Lupton JE, Sylva SP, Kelley DS.
Abstract
Low-molecular-weight hydrocarbons in natural hydrothermal fluids have been attributed to abiogenic production by Fischer-Tropsch type (FTT) reactions, although clear evidence for such a process has been elusive. Here, we present concentration, and stable and radiocarbon isotope, data from hydrocarbons dissolved in hydrogen-rich fluids venting at the ultramafic-hosted Lost City Hydrothermal Field. A distinct "inverse" trend in the stable carbon and hydrogen isotopic composition of C1 to C4 hydrocarbons is compatible with FTT genesis. Radiocarbon evidence rules out seawater bicarbonate as the carbon source for FTT reactions, suggesting that a mantle-derived inorganic carbon source is leached from the host rocks. Our findings illustrate that the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in nature may occur in the presence of ultramafic rocks, water, and moderate amounts of heat.


These findings have been experimentally verified (so that there is no doubt that these products can be and ARE produced nonbiologically):
Lipid Synthesis Under Hydrothermal Conditions by Fischer- Tropsch-Type Reactions
Thomas M. McCollomGilles RitterBernd R. T. Simoneit
Abstract
Ever since their discovery in the late 1970's, mid-ocean-ridge hydrothermal systems have received a great deal of attention as a possible site for the origin of life on Earth (and environments analogous to mid-ocean-ridge hydrothermal systems are postulated to have been sites where life could have originated on Mars and elsewhere as well). Because no modern-day terrestrial hydrothermal systems are free from the influence of organic compounds derived from biologic processes, laboratory experiments provide the best opportunity for confirmation of the potential for organic synthesis in hydrothermal systems. Here we report on the formation of lipid compounds during Fischer-Tropsch-type synthesis from aqueous solutions of formic acid or oxalic acid. Optimum synthesis occurs in stainless steel vessels by heating at 175 °C for 2–3 days and produces lipid compounds ranging from C2 to >C35 which consist of n-alkanols, n- alkanoic acids, n-alkenes, n-alkanes and alkanones. The precursor carbon sources used are either formic acid or oxalic acid, which disproportionate to H2, CO2 and probably CO. Both carbon sources yield the same lipid classes with essentially the same ranges of compounds. The synthesis reactions were confirmed by using 13C labeled precursor acids.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:42 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Rumraket wrote:False. Fatty acids are routinely produced in abiotic Fischer-Tropsch reactions in many forms of natural environments, primary among them hydrothermal vents.


Cool. then why do you think did cells " invent " such a incredibly complex biosynthesis process to make fatty acid, if they were readily and easily available on eartly earth ?

And, yes, i know , you like your hero Nick Lane, but hey, you are intelligent enough to see through and recognize pseudo scientific claims.....

His hydrothermal vent story is nonsense.

The hydrothermal-vent theory

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... ent-theory

“It’d be like trying to make life evolve from hot Coca-Cola.” Stanley Miller of Miller-Urey experiment fame told Discover Magazine in 1992 that overall, “The vent hypothesis is a real loser. I don’t understand why we even have to discuss it.” One difficulty is that the oldest known fossils are stromatolites, clumps of bacteria from 3.5 billion years ago, which suggests that life began in shallow seas, not deep ones.


The argument follows, that perhaps life first originated in the ocean, then overtime evolved enough to come up to the surface to photosynthesize without getting burned by UVR. But even this theory has its own problems. Namely the problem of hydrolosis or “water-splitting.” The US National Academy of Sciences explains, “In water, the assembly of nucleosides from component sugars and nucleobases, the assembly of nucleotides from nucleosides and phosphate, and the assembly of oligonucleotides from nucleotides are all thermodynamically uphill in water. Two amino acids do not spontaneously join in water. Rather, the opposite reaction is thermodynamically favored at any plausible concentrations: polypeptide chains spontaneously hydrolyze in water, yielding their constituent amino acids,” (Luskin). Physicist Richard Morris concurs, “… water tends to break chains of amino acids. If any proteins had formed in the ocean 3.5 billion years ago, they would have quickly disintegrated,” (Morris, 167). Additionally, the cytoplasm of living cells contain essential minerals of potassium, zinc, manganese and phosphate ions. If cells manifested naturally, these minerals would need to be present nearby. But marine environments do not have widespread concentrations of these minerals (Switek). Thus, it is clear, life could not have formed in the ocean.


I almost forgot that i decided to ignore you, since all time spend to answer your posts is wasted time.......Your blinkes stick VERY STRONG at you........
Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:02 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2745Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Greetings,

The Earth is no longer like it was billions of years ago.

That's why it's called evolution - over time, life-forms change according to the environmental drivers.

The rest of your post has been dealt with before, time and again.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:05 pm
RumraketUser avatar
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Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:
Rumraket wrote:False. Fatty acids are routinely produced in abiotic Fischer-Tropsch reactions in many forms of natural environments, primary among them hydrothermal vents.


Cool. then why do you think did cells " invent " such a incredibly complex biosynthesis process to make fatty acid, if they were readily and easily available on eartly earth ?

Because hydrothermal vents gradually die out, leaving the cells with no source of fatty acids. This is true for any environment, it eventually changes. Cells adapt during the periods when one environment transitions into another.

As the supply of fatty acids runs down over the course of life of the hydrothermal vent, cells are under a strong selective pressure to evolve ways to biosynthesize them from inorganic carbon sources.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:30 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

The Earth is no longer like it was billions of years ago.

That's why it's called evolution - over time, life-forms change according to the environmental drivers.

The rest of your post has been dealt with before, time and again.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

Kindest regards,

James


last post to you too.

I have enough time spend educating you. But your screaming ignorance hinders you to see .

My last advice.

Read the bible. You find the truth there.
Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:02 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

This is my last post here at this forum

Read John 3.16.

Its the key to spend eternity in heaven.
Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:03 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2472Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:This is my last post here at this forum

Read John 3.16.

Its the key to spend eternity in heaven.



Good, because you have contributed with nothing here.

You're a swine who has been drowned in pearls, and you've shunned them all.

You're simply too unintelligent and too emotionally attached to your feel-good ideology to ever come to terms with the scientifically proven realities of life. Your child-like sensibilities desperately seek to make sense of a complex world, so your mind constantly seeks to simplify it, in order to pathetically escape the cognitive dissonance raging in your brain.

Oh and please, pointing to the Bible as your last resort? That's all you have to cling to. Do not delude yourself into thinking you've left on some deep on poetic note with that pathetic, childish Bible verse which means absolutely zero to someone for whom all the numerous inconsitencies and stupidities in the Bible are so perfectly clear.

For us, you're just another intellectually vacuuous disciple of a simplistic ideology, who came here in some wildly misguided attempt at preaching your God to us. Well, you failed. Hard. So hard, in fact, that if anything, you made things worse. We now have a lesser view of your God and of theists as a whole.

Quite an achievement.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
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The horse is a ferocious predator.
Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:31 am
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Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:This is my last post here at this forum

Read John 3.16.

Its the key to spend eternity in heaven.


That would have to be one of the major fails of the biblical god when you think about it. He could have avoided the whole thing by not punishing all descendants of Adam and Eve over the pilfering of an apple. At any time he could have simply gotten over it and forgave everyone for the crime he made up and imposed on everyone. Also, what was the point of a meaningless scapegoat sacrifice if he already knew this "son", which may or may not have been a chunk of him in the first place, would simply wind up back in heaven after a couple short decades on earth? John 3:16 is the ultimate example of the barbarism of the times when an early culture actually thought human sacrifices could work and had meaning. It displays the archaic and totally unethical practice of punishing generations for the "sins of the father". All these practices are eliminated (here at least) because, as a culture, we've matured.
J. R. R. Tolkien was a Middle Earth Creationist.
Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:21 pm
RumraketUser avatar
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Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Elshamah wrote:This is my last post here at this forum


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"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:10 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2745Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:last post to you too.

I have enough time spend educating you. But your screaming ignorance hinders you to see .

My last advice.

Read the bible. You find the truth there.

Educating me?

You didn't understand the paper I cited to you, did you? And you never answered my question either - because your bible doesn't tell you anything about reality.

You believe you have "the truth" but you don't - you're stuck in a crevasse of superstitious, ignorant nonsense that blinds you to any actual knowledge of the universe as it actually is that we've discovered through the pursuit of science.

The bible is nothing more than a collection of stories from a particular culture at a particular period - nothing more.

I have no doubt that you'll be back - whether in this thread or another - still repeating your half-baked ideas. And we'll still be here to try and free you from the crevasse of ignorance into which you've either fallen or in which you've been brought up.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:17 pm
CollecemallPosts: 319Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:53 am

Post Re: The Elshamah mega-thread

I just hope he keeps his word. I have felt terrible for those of you who take the time to address his copy pasta knowing full well he won't read it nor respond to it.
"Every man is a creature of the age in which he lives, and few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of their time."
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ~~Voltaire
Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:33 am
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