Elsewhere on the internet...

The League of Reason has some social media accounts! You can find us on Facebook or on Twitter for some interesting links and things.

The Elshamah mega-thread

Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 32
 [ 632 posts ] 
The Elshamah mega-thread
Author Message
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post The Elshamah mega-thread

The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria requires a interdependent, interlocked, irreducible complex system and a advanced transport and communication system. This is pretty strong evidence that a planning intelligence is required to set it up.

A critically important macromolecule—arguably “second in importance only to DNA”—is ATP. As far as known, all organisms from the simplest bacteria to humans use ATP as their primary energy currency. ATP contains the purine base adenine and the sugar ribose which together form the nucleoside adenosine. Adenine is one of the most important organic molecules for life as we know it today. "Adenine synthesis is perhaps the best example of an irreducibly complex system that can be found in life ..." the process doesn't work unless all 11 enzymes are present.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... -cell#3825

Adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... helix#3435

In eukaryotes the mitochondria produce most of the cell’s ATP (anaerobic glycolysis also produces some)   The systems most frequently mentioned as irreducible complex, as the flagellum, have about 40 essential proteins.

ATP is only one of hundreds of thousands of essential molecules in eukaryotic cells. That makes the cell a hudge, enormous , unimaginable irreducible, interlocked, interdependent nano factory of incredible complexity.A few essential proteins and molecules are mentioned here :

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... =essential

This list is supposed to grow upon further investigation. We know only four basic methods of producing ATP: in bacterial cell walls, in the cytoplasm by photosynthesis, in chloroplasts, and in mitochondria. No transitional forms exist to bridge these four methods by evolution. According to the concept of irreducible complexity, these ATP producing machines must have been manufactured as functioning units and they could not have evolved by Darwinism mechanisms. Anything less than an entire ATP molecule will not function and a manufacturing plant which is less than complete cannot produce a functioning ATP. Some believe that the field of biochemistry which has achieved this understanding has already falsified the Darwinian world view (Behe, 1996).  It certainly looks like the numerous enzymes and carrier proteins needed for cellular respiration demonstrates irreducible complexity. not only does there have to be enough of each of the enzymes and carrier proteins present but they must also work in the right order and be effective enough as well. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and a machine is only as efficient as its slowest part. Given what we know about how life actually works and how easily it dies when it doesn't have enough energy, it is evident that for cellular respiration to have developed naturally within living organisms that could reproduce, would have required several simultaneous innovations. Some scientists have argued that the positions of intelligent design and irreducible complexity are arguments from ignorance which lack enough imagination. I would submit that the concerns put forth above are based, not on ignorance, but on what we actually do know about how life actually works and how easily it dies. Just as a car can die from not having enough gas for energy, or oil for seizing parts, or anti-freeze for engine overheating, so too, all physicians know that there are many different pathways to death. If you really want to begin to understand how life came into existence, you first have to understand how easily it can become non-existent.

Image

The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria

Mitochondria are double-membrane-enclosed organelles. They specialize in ATP synthesis, using energy derived from electron transport and oxidative phosphorylation in mitochondria and from photosynthesis in chloroplasts . Although both organelles contain their own DNA, ribosomes, and other components required for protein synthesis, most of their proteins are encoded in the cell nucleus and imported from the cytosol.

If the endosymbiosis theory were true, would the proteins not keep being encoded and produced all inside mitochondria ?

Most organelle proteins are synthesized in the cytoplasm from nuclear encoded mRNAs. These proteins must be imported into mitochondria. Special sequences, called signal sequences, target the protein to its proper organelle. Organelles contain protein translocator complexes that are required for this transport.

Key players in this process are proteins, a signal sequence, chaperonins, ATP, protein translocator complexes, and signal peptidase.

In order for  proteins required inside of mitochondria being able to arrive at their destination, following is required :

All the machinery to synthesize mRNA's
Cytoplasm and the container of it ( the cell membrane )
the ribosome to make proteins
proteins
signal sequences
chaperonins
ATP,
protein translocator complexes required for the transport
signal peptidase
and the organelle ( the mitochondrion ) into which the protein is transported

if any of it is missing, nothing goes. That is a irreducible , interlocked and interdependent system, which indicates that all the organelles and machinery had to emerge simultaneously. A separate independent stepwise arise is not possible.

Proteins destined for transport into mitochondria contain a signal sequence. This sequence acts as a targeting mechanism to ensure the protein is delivered to the proper organelle.

Most signal-relay stations we know about were intelligently designed. Signal without recognition is meaningless.  Communication implies a signalling convention (a “coming together” or agreement in advance) that a given signal means or represents something: e.g., that S-O-S means “Send Help!”   The transmitter and receiver can be made of non-sentient materials, but the functional purpose of the system always comes from a mind.  The mind uses the material substances to perform an algorithm that is not itself a product of the materials or the blind forces acting on them.  Signal sequences may be composed of mindless matter, but they are marks of a mind behind the intelligent design.

In the mitochondrial electron-transport chain, six different cytochrome hemes, eight iron–sulfur clusters, three copper atoms, a flavin mononucleotide (another electron-transfer cofactor), and ubiquinone work in a defined sequence to carry electrons from NADH to O2. In total, this pathway involves more than 60 different polypeptides arranged in three large membrane protein complexes, each of which binds several of the above electron-carrying cofactors.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... drion#3818

Beside specially ATP synthase, a nanomotor par excellence

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... p-synthase

and NADH dehydrogenase ( Complex I ) Visualize an old locomotive train roaring down the tracks.  One of the characteristic images that surely comes to mind is the oscillating motion of the coupling rods on the wheels.  The long rods that connected the wheels provided a way to convert heat energy from the steam into mechanical energy. It now appears that the we have  trillions of mechanical devices similar like those coupling rods.  They serve to transmit the energy in the food we eat into mechanical energy, driving a proton pump inside the mitochondrion.  It’s all part of an amazing series of electromechanical machines in the powerhouses of the cell. A special type of „transmission element“, which is not known from any other protein, appears to be responsible for the energy transduction within the complex by mechanical nanoscale coupling. Transferred to the technical world, this could be described as a power transmission by a coupling rod, which connects for instance the wheels of a steam train.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... tochondria

Did life really come about solely by random chemicals coming together to form cells, then simple organisms, and then complex ones like us? In other words, without a mind at work to make it happen? Do you think that the over twenty different enzymes and carrier proteins, each consisting of over 300 amino acids, just happened to come together in a specific pathway, called cellular respiration, to provide our cells with the energy they need to live? No, when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do. Meanwhile, as we wait for evolutionary biologists to admit the deficiencies within their theory, our children and the whole world continue to be misled!

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... port-chain
Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:12 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatar
Online
Posts: 3248Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Image
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:25 am
YIM WWW
redPosts: 142Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:Did life really come about solely by random chemicals coming together to form cells, then simple organisms, and then complex ones like us? In other words, without a mind at work to make it happen? Do you think that the over twenty different enzymes and carrier proteins, each consisting of over 300 amino acids, just happened to come together in a specific pathway, called cellular respiration, to provide our cells with the energy they need to live? No, when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do. Meanwhile, as we wait for evolutionary biologists to admit the deficiencies within their theory, our children and the whole world continue to be misled!

We don't have all the answers yet.
But we don't suggest there was a mind at work, especially without there being evidence.

Elshamah wrote:Meanwhile, as we wait for evolutionary biologists to admit the deficiencies within their theory, our children and the whole world continue to be misled!

Actually, we wait for evolutionary biologists to show us why evolution cannot be relied upon as the typical deficiencies lie with those who do.
Last edited by red on Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:59 am
itsdemtitansBloggerUser avatarPosts: 706Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:36 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

red wrote:
Elshamah wrote:Meanwhile, as we wait for evolutionary biologists to admit the deficiencies within their theory, our children and the whole world continue to be misled!

Actually, we wait for evolutionary biologists to show us why evolution cannot be relied upon as the typically deficiencies lie with those who do.


I second this. CDesign Proponentists have been caught lying about science and scientists (*cough*CaseyLuskin*cough*) for me to really care what they have to say.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:21 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

wow, the refutations are amazingly convincing... evolution must be the mechanism then. Glory to Darwin !!
Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:49 am
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:wow, the refutations are amazingly convincing... evolution must be the mechanism then. Glory to Darwin !!


Indeed! :D
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:18 am
hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2340Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

How about 'irreducible complexity isn't a problem for evolutionary theory, but a prediction of it'.

Your gaps are showing, and there's no fucking god in them.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:04 am
surreptitious57Posts: 216Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:09 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:
when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do

You clearly have zero idea how science actually works so let me explain it for you : it is an inductive discipline which relies on evidence to validate
its hypotheses. And this is determined by either observation or experimentation pertaining to specific phenomena through the applied rigour of the
scientific method. It is also an inter subjective process that is peer reviewed which is designed to eliminate as much as possible any bias. There is
no point at which science simply stops because evidence can never be absolute. This is because it is either incomplete or the interpretation of it is
false. Proof is absolute by default but proof and evidence are not the same. So science is in a state of continuous evaluation. There will always be
gaps in understanding but over time become smaller as knowledge increases

A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:35 am
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1098Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do

Well fuck me, we actually agree. The fact that something has not been fully explained yet doesn't mean we have to shovel gods into the gaps in our knowledge.

But thanks for confirming this is all just an argument from ignorance.

Also, irreducible complexity is not a hinderance to evolution.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:02 am
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1098Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:A critically important macromolecule—arguably “second in importance only to DNA”—is ATP.

ATP is not a macromolecule you gimp.

Also, ATP is probably evolutionarily antecedent to DNA because all cellular mechanisms in life rely on the electron transport chain and the generation of ATP from a proton or sodium disequilibrium. But there are many cellular processes that can easily be imagined to function without DNA. We've been over all this shit before and you have learned nothing.

Elshamah wrote: As far as known, all organisms from the simplest bacteria to humans use ATP as their primary energy currency. ATP contains the purine base adenine and the sugar ribose which together form the nucleoside adenosine. Adenine is one of the most important organic molecules for life as we know it today. "Adenine synthesis is perhaps the best example of an irreducibly complex system that can be found in life ..." the process doesn't work unless all 11 enzymes are present.

And as we have already established many, many times on this forum, irreducible complexity is a prediction of evolution. If evolution is true we expect that it produces irreducibly complex structures.

Elshamah wrote:Adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup.

I agree, everyone agrees, nobody here believes otherwise and nobody suggests it did. Probably the true antecedent energy carrying molecule to ATP was just pyrophosphate (ATP contains pyrophosphate, which means the A part came later). I have already explained all this before.

Elshamah wrote:In eukaryotes the mitochondria produce most of the cell’s ATP (anaerobic glycolysis also produces some)   The systems most frequently mentioned as irreducible complex, as the flagellum, have about 40 essential proteins.

And as already explained, irreducibly complex structures are predicted to evolve.

Elshamah wrote:ATP is only one of hundreds of thousands of essential molecules in eukaryotic cells. That makes the cell a hudge

Ya mum is a "hudge".

Elshamah wrote:, enormous ,

Actually cells are unbelievably small. Usually on the order of a few micrometers.

Elshamah wrote: unimaginable irreducible

It is totally imaginable.

Elshamah wrote:, interlocked, interdependent

Both interlocked and interdependent? Department of redundancy department.

Elshamah wrote: nano factory of incredible complexity.

... PRAISE THE LORD.

Elshamah wrote:We know only four basic methods of producing ATP: in bacterial cell walls, in the cytoplasm by photosynthesis, in chloroplasts, and in mitochondria. No transitional forms exist to bridge these four methods by evolution.

So fucking what? They don't need to have evolved from a common ancestor, particularly photosynthesis is unambigously a later invention.

What we DO know is that the ATP synthase is an evolvable entity, and part of it's evolution has been recaptured using ancestral sequence reconstruction in a laboratory experiment that utterly fucking annihilates any assertions about irreducible complexity being a barrier to evolution.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230956
Evolution of increased complexity in a molecular machine.
Finnigan GC1, Hanson-Smith V, Stevens TH, Thornton JW.

Abstract
Many cellular processes are carried out by molecular 'machines'-assemblies of multiple differentiated proteins that physically interact to execute biological functions. Despite much speculation, strong evidence of the mechanisms by which these assemblies evolved is lacking. Here we use ancestral gene resurrection and manipulative genetic experiments to determine how the complexity of an essential molecular machine--the hexameric transmembrane ring of the eukaryotic V-ATPase proton pump--increased hundreds of millions of years ago. We show that the ring of Fungi, which is composed of three paralogous proteins, evolved from a more ancient two-paralogue complex because of a gene duplication that was followed by loss in each daughter copy of specific interfaces by which it interacts with other ring proteins. These losses were complementary, so both copies became obligate components with restricted spatial roles in the complex. Reintroducing a single historical mutation from each paralogue lineage into the resurrected ancestral proteins is sufficient to recapitulate their asymmetric degeneration and trigger the requirement for the more elaborate three-component ring. Our experiments show that increased complexity in an essential molecular machine evolved because of simple, high-probability evolutionary processes, without the apparent evolution of novel functions. They point to a plausible mechanism for the evolution of complexity in other multi-paralogue protein complexes.


Your whole case was just utterly fucking annihilated with this single reference.

According to the concept of irreducible complexity, these ATP producing machines must have been manufactured as functioning units and they could not have evolved by Darwinism mechanisms.

Provenly wrong.

PROVEN. With a direct experiment.

Anything less than an entire ATP molecule will not function and a manufacturing plant which is less than complete cannot produce a functioning ATP.

Provenly wrong.

PROVEN. With a direct experiment.

Some believe that the field of biochemistry which has achieved this understanding has already falsified the Darwinian world view (Behe, 1996).

Some people believe the Earth is flat. That aliens walk among us and the moon is a hologram made by the government to subdue our minds.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:51 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

surreptitious57 wrote:
Elshamah wrote:
when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do

You clearly have zero idea how science actually works so let me explain it for you : it is an inductive discipline which relies on evidence to validate
its hypotheses. And this is determined by either observation or experimentation pertaining to specific phenomena through the applied rigour of the
scientific method. It is also an inter subjective process that is peer reviewed which is designed to eliminate as much as possible any bias. There is
no point at which science simply stops because evidence can never be absolute. This is because it is either incomplete or the interpretation of it is
false. Proof is absolute by default but proof and evidence are not the same. So science is in a state of continuous evaluation. There will always be
gaps in understanding but over time become smaller as knowledge increases


the begging the question starts right in the beginning, when one of the two possible explanations of origins, namely design, are excluded a priori. And that should be not bias ?
If that is not, i dont ,know what would be.


A Good Reason to Include Design

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... l-sciences

http://www.arn.org/docs/orpages/or152/152main.htm

There is, however, at least one good reason to include design as a proper explanation. Meyer's own research in the philosophy of science was on the methods of the historical sciences. "There is more than one scientific method," he said. "In fact there are at least two."


The inductive sciences (by which we might understand physics, chemistry, and the other primarily experimental sciences) are motivated by the question "How does nature normally operate?" The historical sciences (by which we might understand cosmology, geology, paleontology, evolutionary theory and biological systematics), on the other hand, are motivated primarily by the question "How did this system or object come to be?" These are logically distinct questions. In the latter case, when we ask how something came to be, we explain by invoking causal narratives or patterns of events -- employing methods often termed "abductive" or "retroductive" -- to find that set of events that best accounts for the features of what we observe in the present.

This is "detective-style reasoning", and while such reasoning certainly employs natural laws (the bread-and-butter of the inductive or experimental sciences), those laws are insufficient tools for answering the questions posed in the historical sciences. The point has been appreciated well by evolutionary theorists defending their domain against the skepticism of their more experimentally-minded colleagues. In evolutionary theory, says Stephen Jay Gould, "we infer history from its results."

This means that testing, or theory evaluation more generally, will also differ in important ways between the inductive and historical sciences. As Darwin often argued to his correspondents, the theory of common descent by natural selection had to be weighed comparatively, "vis-a-vis its competitors." Explanations are judged by their relative power, and by their consistency with what we know from the present.

"Can a theory of design be formulated to meet these standards?" asked Meyer. Yes: the theory is attempting to answer a "What happened?" question, and does so by postulating the past action of an intelligent agent. "That's a perfectly appropriate answer," he said, "to a perfectly appropriate historical question." Starting with distinctive features of living systems (as discussed by Michael Behe, for instance), design attempts to account for those features by referring them to a sufficient cause, namely, an intelligence. In every respect, argued Meyer, design as a theory is logically fully consonant with the types of answers, and methods of evaluation, common to the historical sciences.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:48 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Rumraket wrote:
Elshamah wrote:when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do

Well fuck me, we actually agree. The fact that something has not been fully explained yet doesn't mean we have to shovel gods into the gaps in our knowledge.

But thanks for confirming this is all just an argument from ignorance.

Also, irreducible complexity is not a hinderance to evolution.


ah, its reason to showel naturalism into the picture ? LOL....

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... complexity

and irreducible complexity means that a sistem cannot evolve through small evolutionary steps. Thats the DEFINITION of ic.

Michael Behe's "Evolutionary" Definition — "An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations). The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway." (A Response to Critics of Darwin's Black Box, 2002)

learn the basics of definition of what ic is, before making false unfounded claims.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:53 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Rumraket wrote:.particularly photosynthesis is unambigously a later invention.


LOL...

since when can mindless processes INVENT something ?? You do borrow a vocabulary you do not have the right to use in your evolutionary thinking..... ;)
Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:57 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

What we DO know is that the ATP synthase is an evolvable entity,


haha.

Image

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... thase#3849

We can resume therefore: 

1.The nucleotide binding stator subunits (“cylinders”) : The electrostatic interaction of these rotor and stator charges is essential for torque generation
2.The central stalk (“crankshaft”) : The torsional elasticity of the central stalk and the bending and stretching elasticity of the peripheral stalk create an elastic coupling between Fo and F1. Is is essential.
3, The A/V rotor subunit (“adapter”) ; It is not used in all ATP synthase motors, and can therefore be reduced.
4. The Rotor ring (“turbine”) ; A ring of 8–15 identical c-subunits is essential for ion-translocation by the rotary electromotor of the ubiquitous FOF1-
ATPase.
5.The Jon channel forming subunit ; Subunit a harbors the ion channel that provides access to the binding site on the c11 ring in the middle of the membrane from the periplasmic surface . The channel is essential for the operation of the enzyme, because mutants in which the channel is blocked are completely inactive in both the ATP synthesis and/or coupled ATP hydrolysis mode
6. The peripheral stalk (“pushrod”) ; The peripheral stalk of F-ATPases is an essential component of these enzymes. It extends from the membrane distal point of the F1 catalytic domain along the surface of the F1 domain with subunit a in the membrane domain.
7 - 11 do not exist in all atp synthase motors, and can therefore be reduced.

There are at least 5 subunit parts essential to mantain the basice function of the ATP synthase motor.


ATP synthase is an irreducibly complex motor—a proton-driven motor divided into rotor and stator portions . Protons can flow freely through the CF0 complex without the CF1 complex, so that if it evolved first, a pH gradient could not have been established within the thylakoids. The δ and critical χ protein subunits of the CF1 complex are synthesized in the cytosol and imported into the chloroplast in everything from Chlorella to Eugenia in the plant kingdom. All of the parts must be shipped to the right location, and all must be the right size and shape, down to the very tiniest detail. Using a factory assembly line as an analogy, after all the otherwise useless and meaningless parts have been manufactured in different locations and shipped in to a central location, they are then assembled, and, if all goes as intended, they fit together perfectly to produce something useful. But the whole process has been carefully designed to function in that way. The whole complex must be manufactured and assembled in just one certain way, or nothing works at all. Since nothing works until everything works, there is no series of intermediates that natural selection could have followed gently up the back slope of mount impossible. The little proton-driven motor known as ATP synthase consists of eight different subunits, totalling more than 20 polypeptide* chains, and is an order of magnitude smaller than the bacterial flagellar motor, which is equally impossible for evolutionists to explain.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:02 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Furthermore :

Special Transport Proteins Exchange ATP and ADP Through the Inner Membrane

Like all biological membranes, the inner mitochondrial membrane contains numerous specific transport proteins that allow particular substances to pass through. One of the most abundant of these is the ADP/ATP carrier protein



The ADP/ATP carrier protein. (A) The ADP/ATP carrier protein is a small membrane protein that carries the ATP produced on the matrix side of the inner membrane to the intermembrane space, and the ADP that is needed for ATP synthesis into the matrix. (B) In the ADP/ATP carrier, six transmembrane α helices define a cavity that binds either ADP or ATP . In this x-ray structure, the substrate is replaced by a tightly bound inhibitor instead (colored). When ADP binds from outside the inner membrane, it triggers a conformational change and is released into the matrix. In exchange, a molecule of ATP quickly binds to the matrix side of the carrier and is transported to the intermembrane space. From there the ATP diffuses through the outer mitochondrial membrane to the cytoplasm, where it powers the energy-requiring processes in the cell.

This carrier shuttles the ATP produced in the matrix through the inner membrane to the intermembrane space, from where it diffuses through the outer mitochondrial membrane to the cytosol. In exchange, ADP passes from the cytosol into the matrix for recycling into ATP. ATP4– has one more negative charge than ADP3–, and the exchange of ATP and ADP is driven by the electrochemical gradient across the inner membrane, so that the more negatively charged ATP is pushed out of the matrix, and the less negatively charged ADP is pulled in. The ADP/ATP carrier is but one member of a mitochondrial carrier family: the inner mitochondrial membrane contains about 20 related carrier proteins exchanging various other metabolites, including the phosphate that is required along with ADP for ATP synthesis. In some specialized fat cells, mitochondrial respiration is uncoupled from ATP synthesis by the uncoupling protein, another member of the mitochondrial carrier family. In these cells, known as brown fat cells, most of the energy of oxidation is dissipated as heat rather than being converted into ATP. In the inner membranes of the large mitochondria in these cells, the uncoupling protein allows protons to move down their electrochemical gradient without passing through ATP synthase. This process is switched on when heat generation is required, causing the cells to oxidize their fat stores at a rapid rate and produce heat rather than ATP. Tissues containing brown fat serve as “heating pads,” helping to revive hibernating animals and to protect newborn human babies from the cold.

If the substrates like crude oil required to make gasoline are not provided at the correct refinery place at the Oil industrial plant, the refinery process cannot happen. Same happens inside the cell. In order for mitochondria to function, shuttling of ADP, ATP, phosphates and other substrates is essential. That process does not catch mutch attention, but is actually life essential for eukaryotic cells to function. We need the right charge of ADP and ATP, the electrochemical gradient inside the inner membrane, the ADP/ATP carrier proteins that drive the substrates around, and carrier proteins that shuttle the phosphate that is required along with ADP for ATP synthesis to the right place at atp synthase motors, ready to be used , to be added to ADP to make ATP. That seems a ingeniously precise orchestrated process requiring several indispensable parts.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:06 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Rumraket wrote:Many cellular processes are carried out by molecular 'machines'-assemblies of multiple differentiated proteins that physically interact to execute biological functions. Despite much speculation, strong evidence of the mechanisms by which these assemblies evolved is lacking. Here we use ancestral gene resurrection and manipulative genetic experiments to determine how the complexity of an essential molecular machine--the hexameric transmembrane ring of the eukaryotic V-ATPase proton pump--increased hundreds of millions of years ago. We show that the ring of Fungi, which is composed of three paralogous proteins, evolved from a more ancient two-paralogue complex because of a gene duplication that was followed by loss in each daughter copy of specific interfaces by which it interacts with other ring proteins. These losses were complementary, so both copies became obligate components with restricted spatial roles in the complex. Reintroducing a single historical mutation from each paralogue lineage into the resurrected ancestral proteins is sufficient to recapitulate their asymmetric degeneration and trigger the requirement for the more elaborate three-component ring. Our experiments show that increased complexity in an essential molecular machine evolved because of simple, high-probability evolutionary processes, without the apparent evolution of novel functions. They point to a plausible mechanism for the evolution of complexity in other multi-paralogue protein complexes.
.

Nothing new here. We agree that micro evolution happens.

And last not least, none of my central argument has been addressed.

Most organelle proteins are synthesized in the cytoplasm from nuclear encoded mRNAs. These proteins must be imported into mitochondria. Special sequences, called signal sequences, target the protein to its proper organelle. Organelles contain protein translocator complexes that are required for this transport.
Key players in this process are proteins, a signal sequence, chaperonins, ATP, protein translocator complexes, and signal peptidase.
In order for proteins required inside of mitochondria being able to arrive at their destination, following is required :
All the machinery to synthesize mRNA's
Cytoplasm and the container of it ( the cell membrane )
the ribosome to make proteins
proteins
signal sequences
chaperonins
ATP,
protein translocator complexes required for the transport
signal peptidase
and the organelle ( the mitochondrion ) into which the protein is transported
if any of it is missing, nothing goes. That is a irreducible , interlocked and interdependent system, which indicates that all the organelles and machinery had to emerge simultaneously. A separate independent stepwise arise is not possible.

No wonder.......
Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:14 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1098Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:
What we DO know is that the ATP synthase is an evolvable entity,


haha.

Image

And yet, the article I brought shows that it happened.

If you are right, if no components could be removed from the ATP synthase motor, the experiments they performed would simply not be possible.

We are done, it's game over. Blather all you want, bring another fifty posts full of copy paste. The experiment was done, ancestral evolutionary states of the ATP synthase motor were mutationally resurrected and tested for function.

The fact that ancestral, less complex versions that still functioned COULD EVEN BE MADE USING BASIC ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT MUTATION DISTRIBUTIONS should be impossible according to you. Impossible. The experiment should not be possible.

If the evolutionary assumption about mutations, and the compartive relationships we extract therefrom, did not actually transpire in the real world, there would be absolutely no reason to expect that targeting the ATP synthase motor for genomic deletions and point mutations would still result in a functional but less complex ATP synthase. But it happened, a significant portion of the complex's evolutionary history was recaptured in the experiement. I emphasize again, THE RESULT SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE IF YOU ARE RIGHT.

We are done. Go on, bring FIFTY fucking posts of cut-n-paste on subjects you have no clue about what means anyway. The information I have posted will remain in this thread, and any objective observer with a functional brian will know that your pseudo-arugment has been refuted.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:39 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1098Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:
Rumraket wrote:Many cellular processes are carried out by molecular 'machines'-assemblies of multiple differentiated proteins that physically interact to execute biological functions. Despite much speculation, strong evidence of the mechanisms by which these assemblies evolved is lacking. Here we use ancestral gene resurrection and manipulative genetic experiments to determine how the complexity of an essential molecular machine--the hexameric transmembrane ring of the eukaryotic V-ATPase proton pump--increased hundreds of millions of years ago. We show that the ring of Fungi, which is composed of three paralogous proteins, evolved from a more ancient two-paralogue complex because of a gene duplication that was followed by loss in each daughter copy of specific interfaces by which it interacts with other ring proteins. These losses were complementary, so both copies became obligate components with restricted spatial roles in the complex. Reintroducing a single historical mutation from each paralogue lineage into the resurrected ancestral proteins is sufficient to recapitulate their asymmetric degeneration and trigger the requirement for the more elaborate three-component ring. Our experiments show that increased complexity in an essential molecular machine evolved because of simple, high-probability evolutionary processes, without the apparent evolution of novel functions. They point to a plausible mechanism for the evolution of complexity in other multi-paralogue protein complexes.
.

Nothing new here. We agree that micro evolution happens.

Where do you find the word micro evolution in this paper? How do you infer we are talking about a case of microevolution here?

Even if the evolution of ATP synthase is actually microevolution(it isn't, the ancestral state of the structure and the mutational events it went through was inferred from over 100 species different versions of the motor, this implies over 800 million years of macroevolutionary change), what the fuck does that even matter? The supposed impossibility of the origin and evolution of irreducibly complex structures is one of the hallmark claims of Intelligent Design creationism, and when you are shown what you have argued for weeks is impossible, nevertheless still happened, your response is to call it microevolution and pretend nothing happened?

I have no words for that, I must quote Schiller:

"Folly, thou conquerest, and I must yield! Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain." -Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:47 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Rumraket wrote:[game over


The game for your world view has been over since the universe exists. Your world view is from fanasy land. There is no creation without a creator.
Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:47 pm
tuxboxLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 1172Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:05 amLocation: Vero Beach Gender: Tree

Post Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah wrote:
Rumraket wrote:[game over


The game for your world view has been over since the universe exists. Your world view is from fanasy land. There is no creation without a creator.


If Nature is eternal and String Theory is correct, then creation as you call it, could occur without a Creator.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine
Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:50 pm
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 32
 [ 632 posts ] 
Return to Science & Mathematics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: thenexttodie and 7 guests