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Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

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Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:
It means that Nature is almost certainly the cause for anything that occurs in Nature

What must be explained , is the origin of nature, in the first place.

Nature exists, in accordance with the FLoT, since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed.

No cause is - or can be - necessary.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:52 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Rumraket wrote: We cannot know a priori that it had an intelligent source. We cannot make the data have semantic meaning or intelligent purpose by simply defining it so.[/color]
[/quote]

It does not have to be a priori. It can be a posteriori conclusion. As said : Upon our experience, we do know only of intelligence producing CS information. Period.
Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:53 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:Nature exists, in accordance with the FLoT, since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed.

No cause is - or can be - necessary.

Kindest regards,

James


The first and second law of thermodynamics is only valid , in place, and existent, once energy was created at the big bang.
Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:54 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:You still don't get that "coded" information doesn't require intelligence

James

To write a book, no author is required ?

Kind regards

Books require an author - that doesn't mean that all things that occur in Nature require an "author".

As I've said before, it's all just chemistry.

Biochemistry - the "chemistry of Life" - is a sub-set of chemistry.

All that's required to separate organic from inorganic chemistry is for one atom of hydrogen and one atom of carbon to form a chemical bond - the hydrocarbon bond. At that point, you're at the foot of the mountain that leads to the first cell. Life occurs somewhere on the path up the mountain before you rach the first cell.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:59 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Nature exists, in accordance with the FLoT, since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed.

No cause is - or can be - necessary.

Kindest regards,

James


The first and second law of thermodynamics is only valid , in place, and existent, once energy was created at the big bang.

The Big Bang wasn't the start of everything - just our space-time continuum.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:00 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:Books require an author - that doesn't mean that all things that occur in Nature require an "author".

As I've said before, it's all just chemistry.


Well, in a book, the letters might be written with ink, but the special arrangement that confers a message, requires intelligence.
The nucleotides that compose DNA are chemistry, but their special arrangement that result in functional proteins, require intelligence.


Kindest regards
Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:23 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:
The first and second law of thermodynamics is only valid , in place, and existent, once energy was created at the big bang.
The Big Bang wasn't the start of everything - just our space-time continuum.

Kindest regards,

James


So you neglect and ignore mainstream science, when it pleases you, right ?

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... -beginning

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4658v1.pdf

Did the universe have a beginning? At this point, it seems that the answer to this question is probably yes.
Here we have addressed three scenarios which seemed to offer a way to avoid a beginning,
and have found that none of them can actually be eternal in the past.
Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:25 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Books require an author - that doesn't mean that all things that occur in Nature require an "author".

As I've said before, it's all just chemistry.


Well, in a book, the letters might be written with ink, but the special arrangement that confers a message, requires intelligence.
The nucleotides that compose DNA are chemistry, but their special arrangement that result in functional proteins, require intelligence.


Kindest regards

No, it doesn't - all it requires are the laws of chemistry.

The fact that certain chemical reactions are more likely than others results in order - this is not design. It's a combination of physical necessity (laws of chemistry) and chance.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:32 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:
The first and second law of thermodynamics is only valid , in place, and existent, once energy was created at the big bang.
The Big Bang wasn't the start of everything - just our space-time continuum.

Kindest regards,

James


So you neglect and ignore mainstream science, when it pleases you, right ?

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org ... -beginning

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4658v1.pdf

Did the universe have a beginning? At this point, it seems that the answer to this question is probably yes.
Here we have addressed three scenarios which seemed to offer a way to avoid a beginning,
and have found that none of them can actually be eternal in the past.

No, I don't.

You're citing a paper from 2012.

Here's something more up-to-date.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:35 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:
The fact that certain chemical reactions are more likely than others results in order

James


There are no constrains in the arrangement of nucleotides. They can stick together in whatever sequence you imagine. Without preference of one sequence over the other.

Thats basic biology. As said. You need to update yourself about basic issues in biology. You are poorly informed.

Kind regards.
Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:20 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:
You're citing a paper from 2012.

Here's something more up-to-date.

Kindest regards,

James


this kind of speculation appears frequently. If the universe were eternal, the second law of thermodynamics would make us to be in a state of heath death. These papers do not take into account even such basic things. and people believe these just so stories brainlessly.
Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:23 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:
The fact that certain chemical reactions are more likely than others results in order

James


There are no constrains in the arrangement of nucleotides. They can stick together in whatever sequence you imagine. Without preference of one sequence over the other.

Thats basic biology. As said. You need to update yourself about basic issues in biology. You are poorly informed.

Kind regards.

Really?

So explain why the nucleotides in DNA arrange themselves A-T and G-C?

Perhaps it's you who needs a lesson in basic biochemistry (which underpins - and is not the same as - biology).

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Last edited by Dragan Glas on Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:35 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:
You're citing a paper from 2012.

Here's something more up-to-date.

Kindest regards,

James


this kind of speculation appears frequently. If the universe were eternal, the second law of thermodynamics would make us to be in a state of heath death. These papers do not take into account even such basic things. and people believe these just so stories brainlessly.

The latest word is that our universe is flat.

What do you think that means for the ultimate fate of our space-time continuum?

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:41 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:
So explain why the nucleotides in DNA arrange themselves A-T and G-C?

Perhaps it's you who needs a lesson in basic biochemistry (which underpins - and is not the same as - biology).

Kindest regards,

James


James

the more you post, the worse it becomes. Honestly. Do yourself a favour and spend some time on education of basics of biology.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ncode.html
The sequence of bases in DNA operates as a true code in that it contains the information necessary to build a protein expressed in a four-letter alphabet of bases which is transcribed to mRNA and then translated to the twenty-amino-acid alphabet necessary to build the protein. Saying that it is a true code involves the idea that the code is free and unconstrained; any of the four bases can be placed in any of the positions in the sequence of bases. Their sequence is not determined by the chemical bonding. There are hydrogen bonds between the base pairs and each base is bonded to the sugar phosphate backbone, but there are no bonds along the longitudional axis of DNA. The bases occur in the complementary base pairs A-T and G-C, but along the sequence on one side the bases can occur in any order, like the letters of a language used to compose words and sentences.
Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:22 pm
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:

The latest word is that our universe is flat.

What do you think that means for the ultimate fate of our space-time continuum?

Kindest regards,

James


You tell me. The argument is yours.
Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:24 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

I think you're talking past each other. You're both right, but about different things. Dragan Glas is talking about base-pairing, Elshamah is talking about sequence-order in an evolutionary context.

The base-pairing rule is not what determined how some arbitrary string of DNA turned out.

If in some arbitrary sequence you have 5'-AAGCTAGCTAG-3', there is nothing in this sequence that makes it more or less likely that the next 3'-nucleotide will be something specific.

Yes, the opposite strand in a double-helix will be:
3'-TTCGATCGATC-5'
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
5'-AAGCTAGCTAG-3'

But suppose there's a mutation in this sequence, whereby a single nucleotide gets inserted somewhere. There isn't anything about the already existing sequence that makes it likely that, to pick an example, a C "wants" to sit next to a T. So in this sense, it is true that DNA sequences are "free" and arbitrary. If you have 5'-CCCCCCCCCCCCC-3', that doesn't mean a potential insertion mutation will be another C any more than A, G, or T.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:43 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

I was initially making the point of how the four bases pair up to show that the laws of chemistry do determine what happens.

More to the point, the biochemistry of the bases themselves determines what elements can bond, and how they bond, to make up those molecules.

Chemistry is what underlies everything.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:21 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2954Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Greetings,

Elshamah wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:
The latest word is that our universe is flat.

What do you think that means for the ultimate fate of our space-time continuum?

Kindest regards,

James

You tell me. The argument is yours.

You're the one who said that the second law of thermodynamics would result in heat death if the article to which I linked were true.

Since the universe has been shown to be "flat", that means that heat death is what will happen, which means that the article to which I linked is correct, and not "just so stories".

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:26 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

I was initially making the point of how the four bases pair up to show that the laws of chemistry do determine what happens.

More to the point, the biochemistry of the bases themselves determines what elements can bond, and how they bond, to make up those molecules.

Chemistry is what underlies everything.

Kindest regards,

James


Chemistry as the hardware is essential. Agreed. But more than that is required. A computer will not work with an empty harddrive. You need to install windows.
Same in the cell.

Paul Davies: the fifth miracle page 62
Due to the organizational structure of systems capable of processing algorithmic (instructional) information, it is not at all clear that a monomolecular system – where a single polymer plays the role of catalyst and informational carrier – is even logically consistent with the organization of information flow in living systems, because there is no possibility of separating information storage from information processing (that being such a distinctive feature of modern life). As such, digital–first systems (as currently posed) represent a rather trivial form of information processing that fails to capture the logical structure of life as we know it. 1


We need to explain the origin of both the hardware and software aspects of life, or the job is only half finished. Explaining the chemical substrate of life and claiming it as a solution to life’s origin is like pointing to silicon and copper as an explanation for the goings-on inside a computer. It is this transition where one should expect to see a chemical system literally take-on “a life of its own”, characterized by informational dynamics which become decoupled from the dictates of local chemistry alone (while of course remaining fully consistent with those dictates). Thus the famed chicken-or-egg problem (a solely hardware issue) is not the true sticking point. Rather, the puzzle lies with something fundamentally different, a problem of causal organization having to do with the separation of informational and mechanical aspects into parallel causal narratives. The real challenge of life’s origin is thus to explain how instructional information control systems emerge naturally and spontaneously from mere molecular dynamics.

Software and hardware are irreducible complex and interdependent. There is no reason for information processing machinery to exist without the software, and vice versa.
Systems of interconnected software and hardware are irreducibly complex. 2
Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:44 am
ElshamahPosts: 392Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 am

Post Re: Powerful counter-apologetics by Jeff Lowder

Dragan Glas wrote:You're the one who said that the second law of thermodynamics would result in heat death if the article to which I linked were true.

Since the universe has been shown to be "flat", that means that heat death is what will happen, which means that the article to which I linked is correct, and not "just so stories".

Kindest regards,

James


James

how do you concile a eternal universe, with the second law ?
Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:46 am
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