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History of Everything.

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History of Everything.
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VisakiUser avatarPosts: 664Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:Perhaps you are understanding me, but to make sure...non-life to life is also supernatural.

That's a nice claim. Got any evidence for it?

Also; what is "life"?
Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:13 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3141Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Fair enough. Thus magic is trickery and amusement (something that is real and happens), well supernatural is intelligence or beyond what is natural (which has never been observed). Thus, magic is truer than supernatural. I think I am starting to understand you.



Perhaps you are understanding me, but to make sure...non-life to life is also supernatural.


Thus, non-life to life is intelligence and beyond the natural. I think Visaki said it best already; "That's a nice claim. Got any evidence for it?" Oh, and please do not fall for the trap of person incredulity.
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Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:27 pm
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2767Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Greetings,

Rhed wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Fair enough. Thus magic is trickery and amusement (something that is real and happens), well supernatural is intelligence or beyond what is natural (which has never been observed). Thus, magic is truer than supernatural. I think I am starting to understand you.



Perhaps you are understanding me, but to make sure...non-life to life is also supernatural.

No, it isn't - it's just chemistry.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:46 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

he_who_is_nobody wrote:Thus, non-life to life is intelligence and beyond the natural. I think Visaki said it best already; "That's a nice claim. Got any evidence for it?" Oh, and please do not fall for the trap of person incredulity.


We always have experienced and observed life coming from life. If you feel differently due to scientific observation of non-life to life then present it. The burden of proof is on your side.

It's like experiencing the fact that windows shatter and break. The window could of shattered because of natural causes (wind, earthquake, etc.) or by a person. If I see that the same window is fixed I wouldn't ask you to prove to me that a person fixed it.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Last edited by Rhed on Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:10 am
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Dragan Glas wrote:No, it isn't - it's just chemistry.


Then show me if it's just chemistry. If you want, take something that is already dead because all of the components are already there in place. :)
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:13 am
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Visaki wrote:Also; what is "life"?


Good question. I know that you and I are experiencing life right now and that is all good and dandy until we become dead (opposite of life).
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:16 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 664Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:
Visaki wrote:Also; what is "life"?


Good question. I know that you and I are experiencing life right now and that is all good and dandy until we become dead (opposite of life).

You are confusing being alive, or as you put it "experiencing life", with life itself. If you want to talk about abiogenesis (or the transision from non-life to life) and the unnaturality of it you really have to be able to define what you mean by "life". I know this isn't an easy question with an easy answer.

P.S. Death is usually what we call existence of a being (or rather the idea of that being) after life functions have stopped. It's not exactly the opposite of life, rather a past tense of it.
Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:26 am
hackenslashLime TordUser avatarPosts: 2198Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote: But I also consider supernatural as something that violates natural law; such as non-life to life.


What natural law does life from non-life violate? Do you still think life is a property?
Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:32 pm
Nesslig20User avatarPosts: 208Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:44 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Thus, non-life to life is intelligence and beyond the natural. I think Visaki said it best already; "That's a nice claim. Got any evidence for it?" Oh, and please do not fall for the trap of person incredulity.


We always have experienced and observed life coming from life.


Observing life coming from life doesn't disprove that life can form from non-life. Nor does observing life coming form life prove that life from non-life is supernatural. If we propose that life formed by a natural process then that process is not supernatural by definition. Of course, before you go ape-shit, we don't (as yet) have such a model to describe said process. The theory of life is in the making.

Rhed wrote:If you feel differently due to scientific observation of non-life to life then present it. The burden of proof is on your side.


No, you said that
"Perhaps you are understanding me, but to make sure...non-life to life is also supernatural."
And someone asked YOU to provide evidence for the claim that non-life to life is also supernatural. The burden of proof is on your side.

Rhed wrote:It's like experiencing the fact that windows shatter and break. The window could of shattered because of natural causes (wind, earthquake, etc.) or by a person. If I see that the same window is fixed I wouldn't ask you to prove to me that a person fixed it.


The analogy fails in many respects.
One: windows are a product of humans and life, well isn't. Windows don't come from windows as (like you said) life comes from pre-existing life.
Two: Proposing that life can come from non-living matter, isn't the same as proposing that a window was fixed by natural causes. This analogy fails for the same reason The Junkyard tornado is called "Hoyle's fallacy".
There are no forces that can make scrap in a junkyard to form an airplane by means of a tornado, nor to reassemble glass shards to form a window. Life on the other hand is entirely composed of chemistry and the forces within chemistry can assemble simple compounds into larger and complex structures. Take for example fatty acids (oil) and put it in water.

What first get on the surface (if it isn't much oil) is a sheet of fatty acid with the hydrophilic end down in contact with the water and the hydrophobic end toward the air.
Image

If you shake it up a bit, like a tornado going through a junkyard, making the molecules jumble around in a random fashion and letting it settle down, something interesting happens. You get Micelles!
Image

And micelles can grow by taking in more fatty acid molecules or just by combining with other micelles and forming larger structures. Like long tubes.
Image

Or a bilayer sheet which can fold and collapse into a hollow spherical structure, with fatty acids making up a bilayer covering the now contained water within it. A liposome
Image

The cell membranes of all living things are also Liposomes, by the way.
http://exploringorigins.org/fattyacids.html

So no, not comparable.

Rhed wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:No, it isn't - it's just chemistry.


Then show me if it's just chemistry.


Well I showed here above, with the fatty acid stuff, the chemistry of the cellular membrane. And chemistry is all that drive every process of the cell, from DNA replication to protein folding. It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless.

Rhed wrote:If you want, take something that is already dead because all of the components are already there in place. :)


A nonsensical challenge that would not demonstrate one way or another that life is a emergent property of very complex chemistry. What would though is show how life operates and it does it by....wait for it....chemistry!!

To make an analogy, if you are claiming that diamonds are composed of carbon then it should be no problem for you to make a diamond out of carbon dioxide, right??? Because all the components are already there in place.

Rhed wrote:
Visaki wrote:Also; what is "life"?


Good question. I know that you and I are experiencing life right now and that is all good and dandy until we become dead (opposite of life).


That is not answering the question. Bacteria are not experiencing life. They are not conscious yet they are alive. I would recommend this video for the basics to understand what life is.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Nesslig20 on Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:46 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2767Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Greetings
Rhed wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:No, it isn't - it's just chemistry.


Then show me if it's just chemistry. If you want, take something that is already dead because all of the components are already there in place. :)

Like other creationinsts, you think that "life" and "non-life" are two completely separate realms - that "never the twain shall meet".

This represents a complete misunderstanding of reality.

Chemistry is divided, roughly, into two areas - the technical terms for which are inorganic ("non-life"), and organic ("life") chemistry.

So, how do you get from inorganic to organic chemistry?

All you need is for one atom of hydrogen and one atom of carbon to form a bond - the hydro-carbon bond - which is the sine qua non of organic chemistry.

Organic chemistry involves carbon - once a chemical reaction occurs involving carbon, you've transitioned to organic chemistry.

Organic chemistry is the basis for biochemistry - the "chemistry of life".

Hence, the transition from non-life to life is just a matter of chemistry.

Understand?

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Last edited by Dragan Glas on Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:20 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 664Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:It's like experiencing the fact that windows shatter and break. The window could of shattered because of natural causes (wind, earthquake, etc.) or by a person. If I see that the same window is fixed I wouldn't ask you to prove to me that a person fixed it.

You know it's rather funny seeing you shoot yourself in the foot and not know it, but I'll explain; Everything we have ever observe happens within the bounds of natural laws, ie naturally, and we have absolutely no confirmed observances of supernaturality. Thus if you see life one wouldn't ask us to prove to you that it happened naturally, right?

A second little fact is that we have not observed an intelligence, people mainly, designing life or making life from non-life. Does that mean we can say that an intelligence can not design life or make life from non-life?

It's fun because it's using their logic against them. :geek:
Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:39 am
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:Perhaps you are understanding me, but to make sure...non-life to life is also supernatural.


Dragan Glas wrote:No, it isn't - it's just chemistry.


Saying life is just chemistry is a blunder that harms biology. If I had to distinguish between life and non-life I would say the key component would be information. Unlike being just chemistry, life harnesses chemical reactions to enact the "program" rather than being a slave to the chemical reactions.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:55 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Visaki wrote:Also; what is "life"?


If I had to distinguish between life and non-life I would say the key component would be information. Unlike being just chemistry, life harnesses chemical reactions to enact the "program" rather than being a slave to the chemical reactions. Once life ends, then life succumbs to chemical reactions, which is to decay.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:58 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Nesslig20 wrote:Well I showed here above, with the fatty acid stuff, the chemistry of the cellular membrane. And chemistry is all that drive every process of the cell, from DNA replication to protein folding. It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless


Thanks for your response Nesslig20. Sorry that I don't respond to your whole response, I usually find the crux of your message in just one sentence (in this case, "It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless". Just don't think I only read a fraction of it. I believe long winded messages get lost as well as the point. Anyways...I obviously disagree; not because of my worldview but because of scientific observations.

If it was really just chemical reactions then codons "UGA" would be a command to "stop" universally throughout all taxonomy of life. However, this isn't the case. Mycoplasma mycoides (bacteria) codes for tryptophan whereas in yeast (eukaryote) codes for "stop".

If it was really just chemical reactions then all genes should be expressed by promoters recognizable by all types of organisms. This is not to be the case. In molecular cloning to express a gene for E. coli (bacteria) needs a bacterial promoter and a gene for S. cerevisiae (eukaryote) needs a yeast promoter. The transcription machinery is not interchangeable, therefore, it isn't only chemistry involved.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:36 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:It's like experiencing the fact that windows shatter and break. The window could of shattered because of natural causes (wind, earthquake, etc.) or by a person. If I see that the same window is fixed I wouldn't ask you to prove to me that a person fixed it.


Visaki wrote:You know it's rather funny seeing you shoot yourself in the foot and not know it, but I'll explain; Everything we have ever observe happens within the bounds of natural laws, ie naturally, and we have absolutely no confirmed observances of supernaturality. Thus if you see life one wouldn't ask us to prove to you that it happened naturally, right?

A second little fact is that we have not observed an intelligence, people mainly, designing life or making life from non-life. Does that mean we can say that an intelligence can not design life or make life from non-life?

It's fun because it's using their logic against them. :geek:



Correct. What we observe is obviously obeying natural laws. Amino acids to proteins doesn't break any laws of nature, just like fixing a window isn't breaking any laws of nature. No magic or supernatural involved here. But(!)....life in general doesn't follow the laws but controls and regulates, and more importantly the point of my post, the ORIGINS of life itself takes a conscious mind. Chemistry alone (or physics) cannot produce life. You need information. In other words, living yeast assembling DNA isn't breaking laws of nature. Dead yeast will not assemble DNA although the chemistry is all there, and yet no laws are broken.

Once life ends, decay begins. The once-living succumbs to the laws of nature. No information, no regulations, no more control. In order to have non-life to life requires a mind.
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:52 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 979Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:
Nesslig20 wrote:Well I showed here above, with the fatty acid stuff, the chemistry of the cellular membrane. And chemistry is all that drive every process of the cell, from DNA replication to protein folding. It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless


Thanks for your response Nesslig20. Sorry that I don't respond to your whole response, I usually find the crux of your message in just one sentence (in this case, "It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless". Just don't think I only read a fraction of it. I believe long winded messages get lost as well as the point. Anyways...I obviously disagree; not because of my worldview but because of scientific observations.

If it was really just chemical reactions then codons "UGA" would be a command to "stop" universally throughout all taxonomy of life.

Uhh no, that doesn't follow. That's like saying if it was really gravity that pulled melting snow down the slops of a mountain, all the resulting rivers should have the exact same shape.

The chemical basis of how a stop codon works is known, and it's still "just" chemistry whether it's coded by UGA or something else.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:51 pm
RhedUser avatarPosts: 260Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:01 amLocation: Currently on the sofa Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:If it was really just chemical reactions then codons "UGA" would be a command to "stop" universally throughout all taxonomy of life.


Rumraket wrote:Uhh no, that doesn't follow. That's like saying if it was really gravity that pulled melting snow down the slops of a mountain, all the resulting rivers should have the exact same shape.

The chemical basis of how a stop codon works is known, and it's still "just" chemistry whether it's coded by UGA or something else.


See below:

Image
If evolution was in the newspaper, it would be in the funnies
Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:25 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 979Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

I got your point. It was wrong.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:27 pm
Nesslig20User avatarPosts: 208Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:44 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Rhed wrote:
Nesslig20 wrote:Well I showed here above, with the fatty acid stuff, the chemistry of the cellular membrane. And chemistry is all that drive every process of the cell, from DNA replication to protein folding. It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless


Thanks for your response Nesslig20. Sorry that I don't respond to your whole response, I usually find the crux of your message in just one sentence (in this case, "It is chemistry, very complex chemistry, but chemistry nonetheless". Just don't think I only read a fraction of it. I believe long winded messages get lost as well as the point. Anyways...I obviously disagree; not because of my worldview but because of scientific observations.

If it was really just chemical reactions then codons "UGA" would be a command to "stop" universally throughout all taxonomy of life. However, this isn't the case. Mycoplasma mycoides (bacteria) codes for tryptophan whereas in yeast (eukaryote) codes for "stop".


And how does this show that it isn't chemistry? This is a total non sequitur.

Rhed wrote:If it was really just chemical reactions then all genes should be expressed by promoters recognizable by all types of organisms. This is not to be the case. In molecular cloning to express a gene for E. coli (bacteria) needs a bacterial promoter and a gene for S. cerevisiae (eukaryote) needs a yeast promoter. The transcription machinery is not interchangeable, therefore, it isn't only chemistry involved.


"The transcription machinery is not interchangeable, therefore, it isn't only chemistry involved."

Uhm no again, that doesn't follow at all. I don't think you know what qualifies something as chemistry.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
Charles Darwin
Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:55 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2767Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: History of Everything.

Greetings,

Rhed wrote:
Rhed wrote:Perhaps you are understanding me, but to make sure...non-life to life is also supernatural.


Dragan Glas wrote:No, it isn't - it's just chemistry.


Saying life is just chemistry is a blunder that harms biology. If I had to distinguish between life and non-life I would say the key component would be information. Unlike being just chemistry, life harnesses chemical reactions to enact the "program" rather than being a slave to the chemical reactions.

It's still just chemistry - what you wrongly call "information" is nothing more than chemistry, albeit more complex in that it involves larger molecules.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:18 am
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