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A math Problem

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A math Problem
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he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:Given that I didn’t received a direct and clear answer I will simply repeat it.
leroy wrote:

What exactly do you what me to prove?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options


Which one of these 3 points do you find so controversial?


How much more direct and clear do you want me to get? I gave you the equation you needed to use, after all. Given that you are not an authority, either do the math and demonstrate that you are correct or provide a citation that allows you to limit the equation in some way. Short of that, you are just running.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
X/(real numbers)+(one's time)+(one's memory)+(y)+(z)+..


Aja, and what am I suppose to do with that equation? Why are you adding all those factors? I honestly don’t understand why did you conclude that that equation would be accurate


That is the equation one would use to calculate the odds. Thank you for once again demonstrating that you do not know the first thing about something you are pontificating about.

leroy wrote:.....but…..it is irrelevant, my only burden is to show that there is at least 1 factor that would limit my options, and I already did that. (limited time for example)


As you can see from the above, your time would be added to the real numbers. You already admitted that the real numbers were infinite, thus what is infinity plus X? I am sure you can even answer that. Beyond that, you also already admitted that one divided by infinity is zero. Thus, why are you still arguing?

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:n the real world? What other world is there? However, yes. How do I know that?

hackenslash wrote:
Because the reals are infinite, and any number divided by infinity is zero, hance the probability of choosing 7, or indeed any other number, is exactly zero, yet the probability of choosing some number is exactly one.


I should add,just in case you don't read the post, thatr even events with a zero probability happen all the time, and this is trivial to demonstrate.
hackenslash wrote:
Pick any number on the real number line. Let's say, for example, that you choose the number 7. The probability of choosing that number at random is zero. How? Because the reals are infinite, and any number divided by infinity is zero, hance the probability of choosing 7, or indeed any other number, is exactly zero, yet the probability of choosing some number is exactly one.

I personally find it perplexing that you (and hack) truly and honestly believe that the probability of me selecting (or typing) “7” is literally zero despite the fact that I just typed this number.


How is that perplexing? We both admit that things with a zero probability happen all the time. You agree with us, you just refuse to admit to your mistake.

leroy wrote:This study (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnh ... andomness/) shows that humans are more likely to select a prime and odd number (like 7) rather than a nice round number (like 10) so how should we interpret this data? Is the probability of selecting "10" less than zero? honestly haven’t you detected any logical incoherence?


Irrelevant to this discussion. Again, we are talking about the odds. Beyond that, remember when you picked 7312004874512? What were the odds that you would pick that number? Feel free to calculate them with the equation I have given you or provide your own. Anything short of that will be seen as running.

leroy wrote:So in conclusion
Not all numbers have the same probability of being selected.


What a goal post shift. Again, we are talking about the odds of picking any random number.

leroy wrote:Some numbers are impossible to select (or type)...... (for example numbers with too many digits).


Just calculate the odds of you picking 7312004874512. Go ahead, or just keep running. You are so good at running.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
How much more direct and clear do you want me to get? I gave you the equation you needed to use, after all. Given that you are not an authority, either do the math and demonstrate that you are correct or provide a citation that allows you to limit the equation in some way. Short of that, you are just running.


lets ask the question one more time Lets see how long does it take you to answer

leroy wrote:
Given that I didn’t received a direct and clear answer I will simply repeat it.
leroy wrote:


What exactly do you what me to prove?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options


Which one of these 3 points do you find so controversial?


he_who_is_nobody wrote:That is the equation one would use to calculate the odds. Thank you for once again demonstrating that you do not know the first thing about something you are pontificating about.


Not granted, nobody would use that equation.
he_who_is_nobody wrote:As you can see from the above, your time would be added to the real numbers

No I would not add time, and nobody who understand probability (and the context) would add time
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Irrelevant to this discussion. Again, we are talking about the odds.


Sure the odds of selecting “7” according to you are zero, the odds of selecting “10” are smaller than the odds of selecting “7” (according to the study) therefore are we to belive that the odds of selecting “10” are less than zero? (answer yes or no)


he_who_is_nobody wrote:Beyond that, remember when you picked 7312004874512? What were the odds that you would pick that number? Feel free to calculate them with the equation I have given you or provide your own. Anything short of that will be seen as running.




I can’t calculate the exact odds, the probability was certainly greater than 0.



There is only a finite amount of numbers that I could have typed, so the probability would be:



X / Finite number > 0

he_who_is_nobody wrote:What a goal post shift. Again, we are talking about the odds of picking any random number



Granted, the odds of picking 7 randomly from a set of infinite options are zero. My disagreement is on the fact that it is impossible to select “7” randomly from a set of infinite options, when people pick “7” they always have a finite amount of options in mind.

In other words “picking 7 randomly from a set of infinite options ” is an event that cant happen.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:08 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
How much more direct and clear do you want me to get? I gave you the equation you needed to use, after all. Given that you are not an authority, either do the math and demonstrate that you are correct or provide a citation that allows you to limit the equation in some way. Short of that, you are just running.


lets ask the question one more time Lets see how long does it take you to answer

leroy wrote:
Given that I didn’t received a direct and clear answer I will simply repeat it.
leroy wrote:


What exactly do you what me to prove?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options


Which one of these 3 points do you find so controversial?


Just keep running dandan/leroy. You quoted the direct answer, yet you keep asking the same question that has already been answered. All you can do is run, because an honest person would admit to their mistake.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:That is the equation one would use to calculate the odds. Thank you for once again demonstrating that you do not know the first thing about something you are pontificating about.


Not granted, nobody would use that equation.


Why not? As I keep telling you, you are no authority, thus just because you can write a sentence does not mean you have made a point. Justify your answer.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:As you can see from the above, your time would be added to the real numbers

No I would not add time, and nobody who understand probability (and the context) would add time


Why not? As I keep telling you, you are no authority, thus just because you can write a sentence does not mean you have made a point. Justify your answer.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Irrelevant to this discussion. Again, we are talking about the odds.


Sure the odds of selecting “7” according to you are zero, the odds of selecting “10” are smaller than the odds of selecting “7” (according to the study) therefore are we to belive that the odds of selecting “10” are less than zero? (answer yes or no)


Stop moving the goal posts. Again, all you have to do is calculate the odds of you picking 7312004874512 to see that you are wrong.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Beyond that, remember when you picked 7312004874512? What were the odds that you would pick that number? Feel free to calculate them with the equation I have given you or provide your own. Anything short of that will be seen as running.




I can’t calculate the exact odds, the probability was certainly greater than 0.


:lol:

Look at you run!

:lol:

Show your math. As I keep saying, you are no authority, thus just because you can write a sentence does not mean you have given an answer. Either demonstrate or provide citations to justify your claim. Or you can just keep running. You are so good at running.

leroy wrote:There is only a finite amount of numbers that I could have typed, so the probability would be:



X / Finite number > 0


Based on what? You already said the real numbers are infinite. What is allowing you to say this now?

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:What a goal post shift. Again, we are talking about the odds of picking any random number



Granted, the odds of picking 7 randomly from a set of infinite options are zero.


Thank you! Looks like we are done here. I will just keep quoting this back at you unless you provide a citation or demonstrate the math.

leroy wrote:My disagreement is on the fact that it is impossible to select “7” randomly from a set of infinite options, when people pick “7” they always have a finite amount of options in mind.


:facepalm:

You already admitted that the real numbers are infinite. Can you at least attempt to make an internally consistent argument? That would mean you would have to admit to mistakes every now and than.

leroy wrote:In other words “picking 7 randomly from a set of infinite options ” is an event that cant happen.


Based on what? Either provide the equation that demonstrates this or give a citation. Or you can just keep running. You are so good at running.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

Just to paraphrase my last comment:

We both agree that the probability of picking 7 randomly in a pool of infinite options is zero, we simply disagree on how we should interpret this fact.

My interpretation: Given that the probability is zero, this event can’t happen and won’t ever happen. // when people pick “7” they are not considering all the real numbers as an option

Your interpretation: therefore events with zero probabilities happen all the time

When Hack picked “7” he didn’t had all the real numbers in his mind, there are certainly numbers that hack has never even imagined in his whole life, I am sure that he didn’t even consider the option of typing a number with billions of digits, after all why would he waste so many hours in typing billions of digits if “7” was effective enough to meet his purpose?


As a bonus (this is just a happy coincidence) it happens to be the case that humans tend to pick odd (usually prime) numbers, when asked to pick a random number, (as the study that I quoted shows) so human selection is not fully random.

So this is my justification for my interpretation, do you have any justification for your interpretation?
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Last edited by leroy on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:41 pm
leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

he_who_is_nobody
Based on what? You already said the real numbers are infinite. What is allowing you to say this now? [/quote]

Yes the real numbers are infinite, but the amount of numbers, given my limited time, computer power, mind, X,Y,Z........ I (as a limited human) can only type/pick a number within a finite amount of options.

Why is this so hard to understand? Which of these 3 points do you find controversial?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options

Why can’t you simply type 1,2 or 3 instead of providing an answer that you know I would not understand? (ether because the answer was not clear or because I am bad in understanding stuff)

I already told you why your equation is wrong and provided the correct equation (I even justify it with an example related to hamburgers)
X/(real numbers)+(one's time)+(one's memory)+(y)+(z)+


You are not suppose to add all these stuff, all you have to do is divide X by the smallest of those values. The result is unknown by myself, but it is certainly a finite number.



Stop moving the goal posts. Again, all you have to do is calculate the odds of you picking 7312004874512 to see that you are wrong

I don’t have to calculate the odds, I never claimed I could, and I never accepted that burden, my only burden is to show that the odds are greater than zero.

For any rational person, the fact that I did picked and typed that numbers proves that the probabilities where greater than zero (if the probabilities where zero, then it would have been impossible for me to type such number)

For irrational individuals like you and hack I need to provide additional evidence, and I did, given my limitations (time, computer power etc.) there are only a finite amount of numbers that I could have typed.

X / Finite number > 0
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:10 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:Just to paraphrase my last comment:

We both agree that the probability of picking 7 randomly in a pool of infinite options is zero, we simply disagree on how we should interpret this fact.


What is there to interpret dandan/leroy? All I have seen is myself accepting the math from a very simple calculation and you running from your burden.

leroy wrote:My interpretation: Given that the probability is zero, this event can’t happen and won’t ever happen. // when people pick “7” they are not considering all the real numbers as an option


Yet we already know that events with a zero probability happen all the time. You just admitted that this is the case. You picking 7312004874512 randomly is an example of that. I am still waiting for you to do the math and demonstrate this. I have given you the equation, what exactly are you waiting for?

leroy wrote:Your interpretation: therefore events with zero probabilities happen all the time


As was demonstrated by you picking 7312004874512 randomly. Again, do the math and see it for yourself.

leroy wrote:When Hack picked “7” he didn’t had all the real numbers in his mind, there are certainly numbers that hack has never even imagined in his whole life, I am sure that he didn’t even consider the option of typing a number with billions of digits, after all why would he waste so many hours in typing billions of digits if “7” was effective enough to meet his purpose?


Are you still typing? Why not do the math and demonstrate it. Oh, I forgot. You like to run.

leroy wrote:As a bonus (this is just a happy coincidence) it happens to be the case that humans tend to pick odd (usually prime) numbers, when asked to pick a random number, (as the study that I quoted shows) so human selection is not fully random.


Yet, you picked 7312004874512 randomly. Care to do the math and demonstrate the odds of you picking that number, or are you happy running?

leroy wrote:So this is my justification for my interpretation, do you have any justification for your interpretation?


Again, just because you can write a sentence does not mean you have justified anything. You are not an authority. Now, either demonstrate the odds using the equation I gave you (or pick your own), provide a citation that allows you to limit the real numbers, or just keep running. You are so good at running after all.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody
Based on what? You already said the real numbers are infinite. What is allowing you to say this now?


Yes the real numbers are infinite, but the amount of numbers, given my limited time, computer power, mind, X,Y,Z........ I (as a limited human) can only type/pick a number within a finite amount of options.


I am still waiting for you to demonstrate this instead of running. I gave you the equation and now I am just waiting for you to stop running and do the math. You can even provide your own equation after you justify why you are using it.

leroy wrote:Why is this so hard to understand? Which of these 3 points do you find controversial?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options

Why can’t you simply type 1,2 or 3 instead of providing an answer that you know I would not understand? (ether because the answer was not clear or because I am bad in understanding stuff)


That was already answered, in fact you quoted the answer earlier.

he_who_is_nobody wrote:How much more direct and clear do you want me to get? I gave you the equation you needed to use, after all. Given that you are not an authority, either do the math and demonstrate that you are correct or provide a citation that allows you to limit the equation in some way. Short of that, you are just running.


Just because my answer does not fall within your script does not mean I have not answered it. Now do the math, provide a relevant citation that justifies your claim, or keep running. You are so good at running after all.

leroy wrote:I already told you why your equation is wrong and provided the correct equation (I even justify it with an example related to hamburgers)


You did no such thing. Strange how when I say I or you did something, I am actually able to provide links to it, yet you cannot. Again, you are no authority. Thus, you actually have to do the math and demonstrate this to be the case or provide a relevant citation that justifies the claim you are trying to make. Anything short of that is just you running.

leroy wrote:
X/(real numbers)+(one's time)+(one's memory)+(y)+(z)+


You are not suppose to add all these stuff, all you have to do is divide X by the smallest of those values. The result is unknown by myself, but it is certainly a finite number.


Citation needed. You are no authority, thus I am not just taking your word.

leroy wrote:
Stop moving the goal posts. Again, all you have to do is calculate the odds of you picking 7312004874512 to see that you are wrong

I don’t have to calculate the odds, I never claimed I could, and I never accepted that burden, my only burden is to show that the odds are greater than zero.


Short of demonstrating this with an equation or providing a relevant citation, you have not come close to meeting your burden. All you have done is run.

leroy wrote:For any rational person, the fact that I did picked and typed that numbers proves that the probabilities where greater than zero (if the probabilities where zero, then it would have been impossible for me to type such number)


Why is that impossible when events with a zero probability happen all the time? Again, just do the math and you will see this to be the case. You even admited that this is the case. That, or you can just keep running. You are so good at running after all.

leroy wrote:For irrational individuals like you and hack I need to provide additional evidence, and I did, given my limitations (time, computer power etc.) there are only a finite amount of numbers that I could have typed.

X / Finite number > 0


Again, you are no authority. Just because you can write something does not give it weight. Either do the math and demonstrate this to be the case or provide a relevant citation that allows you to justify this. Anything short of this will just be more running from you. You are so good at running though.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

I will never get an answer right?

leroy wrote:
Why is this so hard to understand? Which of these 3 points do you find controversial?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options


I am not running away, my claim is based on the truth on those 3 points, since you disagree I am simply asking you to tell me which of the points do you find controversial so that I can prove it


he_who_is_nobody
Yet, you picked 7312004874512 randomly. Care to do the math and demonstrate the odds of you picking that number, or are you happy running?



Again I never said that I could prove the exact odds, all I am saying is that the odds where greater than zero. There are many numbers that I could have typed instead of 7312004874512 but there were only a finite set of possibilities

For example I was not even considering the possibility of typing a number with millions (or even hundreds) of digits.

I have given you the equation, what exactly are you waiting for?



Your equation is wrong and irrelevant, it is still true that I was not even considering the possibility of typing a very, very long number, because at that time I thought that a relatively small number with 13 digits would have made my point. This is true independently of your equation.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:00 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:I will never get an answer right?

leroy wrote:
Why is this so hard to understand? Which of these 3 points do you find controversial?

1 That I have limited time,

2 That I can only write a limited amount of digits (given my limited time)

3 given 1 and 2 I don’t have infinite options


I am not running away, my claim is based on the truth on those 3 points, since you disagree I am simply asking you to tell me which of the points do you find controversial so that I can prove it


I already answered that question:

he_who_is_nobody wrote:How much more direct and clear do you want me to get? I gave you the equation you needed to use, after all. Given that you are not an authority, either do the math and demonstrate that you are correct or provide a citation that allows you to limit the equation in some way. Short of that, you are just running.


How about acting like an adult and deal with my answer instead of repeating a question that as already been directly addressed.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody
Yet, you picked 7312004874512 randomly. Care to do the math and demonstrate the odds of you picking that number, or are you happy running?



Again I never said that I could prove the exact odds, all I am saying is that the odds where greater than zero. There are many numbers that I could have typed instead of 7312004874512 but there were only a finite set of possibilities

For example I was not even considering the possibility of typing a number with millions (or even hundreds) of digits.


Care to show the math? Or how about provide a citation? Oh, that is right, you would rather run.

leroy wrote:
I have given you the equation, what exactly are you waiting for?



Your equation is wrong and irrelevant, it is still true that I was not even considering the possibility of typing a very, very long number, because at that time I thought that a relatively small number with 13 digits would have made my point. This is true independently of your equation.


You are no authority dandan/leroy. Either provide the math that shows that I am wrong, or provide a citation that shows it. Short of that will be seen as running.

Oh, and just so we do not forget that you already admitted that you were wrong:

leroy wrote:We both agree that the probability of picking 7 randomly in a pool of infinite options is zero...
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

Why don’t we both make an honest effort and do whatever we consider best to start a honest and rich conversation, honestly at this point I don’t even know what your points are, and I don’t understand where are our points of disagreement, (I mean this seriously, I am not trying to be sarcastic)

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Oh, and just so we do not forget that you already admitted that you were wrong:

leroy wrote:We both agree that the probability of picking 7 randomly in a pool of infinite options is zero...




Yes that is exactly what I am arguing, the probability of picking 7 in an infinite pool of options is zero // which is why (I would argue) that such an event is impossible, and can’t happen in the real world.

When Hack picked 7, he didn’t really had all the real numbers in mind, he was not really considering all numbers as a viable option. …

So is my position clear?

Up to this point do you disagree with anything?

If you disagree, can you please explain to me clearly, exactly where is your point of disagreement?

I am aware of the fact that there are points that I have not addressed, I simply what to know if there is disagreement up to this point

This is an honest attempt to actually understand the points that you are trying to make
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:22 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:Why don’t we both make an honest effort and do whatever we consider best to start a honest and rich conversation, honestly at this point I don’t even know what your points are, and I don’t understand where are our points of disagreement, (I mean this seriously, I am not trying to be sarcastic)


I am only ever open and honest on this forum. If it were not for your knee-jerk need to disagree with me because I am an atheist, you might find yourself also being an honest person.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Oh, and just so we do not forget that you already admitted that you were wrong:


leroy wrote:We both agree that the probability of picking 7 randomly in a pool of infinite options is zero...




Yes that is exactly what I am arguing, the probability of picking 7 in an infinite pool of options is zero // which is why (I would argue) that such an event is impossible, and can’t happen in the real world.[/quote]

Again, classic argument from ignorance. You cannot rap your mind around this simple concept, so the concept must be wrong. This is simple dandan/leroy, this whole time, I have been talking about the odds of an event happening. How does one calculate the odds of an event? We divide the event by all the other options that could happen. In this case, we are talking about picking a number randomly. That means one of the variables in play are the real numbers (which you admitted are infinite). Thus, the odds of picking 7 or 7312004874512 are the same.

leroy wrote:When Hack picked 7, he didn’t really had all the real numbers in mind, he was not really considering all numbers as a viable option. …


Says you. You are no authority dandan/leroy. Just because you can write something down does not make it gospel. Again, you already admitted that the real numbers are infinite. What is X/infinity?

leroy wrote:So is my position clear?


Yes. An argument from ignorance. I have known that from the start. However, all your arguments usually hinge on a logical fallacy.

leroy wrote:Up to this point do you disagree with anything?


Nope. We both agree that picking 7 or 7312004874512 have the same odds, and those odds have to be calculated using all the real numbers.

leroy wrote:If you disagree, can you please explain to me clearly, exactly where is your point of disagreement?


If we disagree, it is in your declaration that hackenslash had a limited set. I have no idea why you think that is the case when you already admitted that all the real numbers are infinite.

leroy wrote:I am aware of the fact that there are points that I have not addressed, I simply what to know if there is disagreement up to this point

This is an honest attempt to actually understand the points that you are trying to make


Does that mean you will take more than ten minute to read this post and respond? It is actions like that that will actually determine if you are attempting to understand instead of just having another knee-jerk disagreement.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

he_who_is_nobody wrote:

(which you admitted are infinite). Thus, .



Yes, at least for the sake of this argument I am granting that the real numbers are infinite, that 1/infinity = zero and that the probability of selecting a random number from an infinite amount of alternatives is zero. We both agree on these facts.


-------------------------

Our disagreement comes when we apply this knowledge in the real world, (and not only in the abstract world of math).

My points
1 As I argued before, in the real world humans don’t make completely random selections, as the study that I quoted proves, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnh ... andomness/................

2 Some numbers are very long (have too many digits) that are impossible to type (given that in the real world we have limited time, limited computer power etc.)

*this is to say that in the real world we dont have infinite options and selection of numbers is not completly random

3 And this article https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/9966/1/ ... r_9966.pdf shows that even in the abstract world of math events with zero probability are still impossible.

What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:Does that mean you will take more than ten minute to read this post and respond? It is actions like that that will actually determine if you are attempting to understand instead of just having another knee-jerk disagreement.


This is an honest attempt to understand what you are saying, I honestly what to understand why do you have so many problems in accepting those 3 points, when I personally find them uncontroversial.

Points 1 and 3 where supported by sources, and point 2 is obviously true,
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:39 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:

(which you admitted are infinite). Thus, .



Yes, at least for the sake of this argument I am granting that the real numbers are infinite, that 1/infinity = zero and that the probability of selecting a random number from an infinite amount of alternatives is zero. We both agree on these facts.


Amazing. I guess we are done here. Thank you for finally admitted to your mistake. I guess the rest of this below is your apology for running?

leroy wrote:Our disagreement comes when we apply this knowledge in the real world, (and not only in the abstract world of math).


We are applying this to the real world. You have already granted that the real numbers are infinite and that 1/infinity is zero. What more has to be said?

leroy wrote:My points


All were irrelevant to this discussion. Again, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

leroy wrote:What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?


Nothing. They are just irrelevant to this problem. Like I said, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Does that mean you will take more than ten minute to read this post and respond? It is actions like that that will actually determine if you are attempting to understand instead of just having another knee-jerk disagreement.


This is an honest attempt to understand what you are saying, I honestly what to understand why do you have so many problems in accepting those 3 points, when I personally find them uncontroversial.

Points 1 and 3 where supported by sources, and point 2 is obviously true,


Because they are irrelevant. You would know this if you actually took the time to read all the other posts I wrote. Again, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

However, you can also just accept that you were wrong as you did at the beginning of your post:

leroy wrote:Yes, at least for the sake of this argument I am granting that the real numbers are infinite, that 1/infinity = zero and that the probability of selecting a random number from an infinite amount of alternatives is zero. We both agree on these facts.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

Ok so in conclusion, the odds of picking a random number from an infinite set of options are zero, but in the real world when a human like hackenslash picks a number, the selection is not completely random, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others.


Would you accept this conclusion?
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:59 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:Ok so in conclusion, the odds of picking a random number from an infinite set of options are zero, but in the real world when a human like hackenslash picks a number, the selection is not completely random, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others.


Would you accept this conclusion?


:facepalm:

You are not an authority dandan/leroy. Again, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
leroy wrote:Ok so in conclusion, the odds of picking a random number from an infinite set of options are zero, but in the real world when a human, like hackenslash, picks a number, the selection is not completely random, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others.


Would you accept this conclusion?


:facepalm:

You are not an authority dandan/leroy. Again, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.


So do you accept the conclusion? Yes or no? if not, why not? What do you find so controversial about this conclusion?

I am not running away from anything, and to be honest I am unable to find any relevant point of disagreement.

We both agree that x/infinity = zero, we both agree that the odds of selecting a random number from an infinite set is zero we both seem to agree that humans can’t make completely random selections and we both agree that Hack is a human. (do you disagree with any of these?) yes or no

If you agree with all those points, then it follows that hack s selection of “7” was not a completely random selection………can you please clarify if there is any point of disagreement up to this point?
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:26 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote: :facepalm:

You are not an authority dandan/leroy. Again, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.


So do you accept the conclusion? Yes or no? if not, why not? What do you find so controversial about this conclusion?


I obviously do not agree with your conclusion. Why is it so hard for you to read what I write?

leroy wrote:I am not running away from anything, and to be honest I am unable to find any relevant point of disagreement.


You are running, because I have told you several times what you need to do to support your conclusion. Anything short of that is you running.

leroy wrote:We both agree that x/infinity = zero, we both agree that the odds of selecting a random number from an infinite set is zero we both seem to agree that humans can’t make completely random selections and we both agree that Hack is a human. (do you disagree with any of these?) yes or no


There it is. " ...we both seem to agree that humans can’t make completely random selections..." When did we agree on that? Again, when are you going to actually read my posts?

leroy wrote:If you agree with all those points, then it follows that hack s selection of “7” was not a completely random selection………can you please clarify if there is any point of disagreement up to this point?


Done. Beyond that, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

However, you can also just accept that you were wrong this whole time as you have already:

leroy wrote:Yes, at least for the sake of this argument I am granting that the real numbers are infinite, that 1/infinity = zero and that the probability of selecting a random number from an infinite amount of alternatives is zero. We both agree on these facts.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

he_who_is_nobody wrote:There it is. " ...we both seem to agree that humans can’t make completely random selections..." When did we agree on that?


when? on march 6

leroy wrote:My points
1 As I argued before, in the real world humans don’t make completely random selections, as the study that I quoted proves, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnh ... andomness/................

2 Some numbers are very long (have too many digits) that are impossible to type (given that in the real world we have limited time, limited computer power etc.)

*this is to say that in the real world we dont have infinite options and selection of numbers is not completly random

3 And this article https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/9966/1/ ... r_9966.pdf shows that even in the abstract world of math events with zero probability are still impossible.

What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?


your answer to the question
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Nothing.


You said that there is nothing wrong with any of those 3 points, by granting point 1 you are granting that humans can´t make completely random selections.


so can humans make random selections? yes or no

Do you admit that on March 6 you did grant point number 1 and repented a few minutes ago?

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Done. Beyond that, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

However, you can also just accept that you were wrong this whole time as you have already:



Why would I admit that I was wrong if I never denied that the odds would be zero? According to you what mistake have I made so that I can admit my mistake?
Our only point of disagreement seems to be whether if Hack has the ability to make a random selection of a number.
I already provided source that proves that humans don’t make completely random selections, what else should I do to prove my point? Should I provide more sources? What should I do?
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:45 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:There it is. " ...we both seem to agree that humans can’t make completely random selections..." When did we agree on that?


when? on march 6

leroy wrote:My points
1 As I argued before, in the real world humans don’t make completely random selections, as the study that I quoted proves, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnh ... andomness/................

2 Some numbers are very long (have too many digits) that are impossible to type (given that in the real world we have limited time, limited computer power etc.)

*this is to say that in the real world we dont have infinite options and selection of numbers is not completly random

3 And this article https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/9966/1/ ... r_9966.pdf shows that even in the abstract world of math events with zero probability are still impossible.

What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?


your answer to the question
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Nothing.


You said that there is nothing wrong with any of those 3 points, by granting point 1 you are granting that humans can´t make completely random selections.


Look at that. More dishonesty from dandan/leroy, but what else would we expect? I said they were irrelevant.

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
leroy wrote:What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?


Nothing. They are just irrelevant to this problem. Like I said, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

[emphasis added]


Why do you see the need to quote-mine me? Especially when it is so easy to expose your lie? I honestly do not understand why you act so dishonestly on a written forum. It is so easy to expose your lies.

leroy wrote:so can humans make random selections? yes or no


Of course. You picking 7312004874512 is an example of that. Care to calculate the odds and see that I am right?

leroy wrote:Do you admit that on March 6 you did grant point number 1 and repented a few minutes ago?


No. As anyone can see, I said your points were irrelavent. Stop quote-mining.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Done. Beyond that, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

However, you can also just accept that you were wrong this whole time as you have already:



Why would I admit that I was wrong if I never denied that the odds would be zero? According to you what mistake have I made so that I can admit my mistake?


Perfect. Than you agree that "events with a zero probability happen all the time". We are done here. Thanks for admitting that.

leroy wrote:Our only point of disagreement seems to be whether if Hack has the ability to make a random selection of a number.
I already provided source that proves that humans don’t make completely random selections, what else should I do to prove my point? Should I provide more sources? What should I do?


It is simple dandan/leroy. You have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running. I keep telling you this and you keep running from your burden, while at the same time now admitted that "events with a zero probability happen all the time". It looks like someone is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
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leroyPosts: 2015Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A math Problem

eroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
There it is. " ...we both seem to agree that humans can’t make completely random selections..." When did we agree on that?


when? on march 6

leroy wrote:
My points
1 As I argued before, in the real world humans don’t make completely random selections, as the study that I quoted proves, some numbers are more likely to be selected than others (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnh ... andomness/................

2 Some numbers are very long (have too many digits) that are impossible to type (given that in the real world we have limited time, limited computer power etc.)

*this is to say that in the real world we dont have infinite options and selection of numbers is not completly random

3 And this article https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/9966/1/ ... r_9966.pdf shows that even in the abstract world of math events with zero probability are still impossible.

What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?


your answer to the question
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Nothing.


You said that there is nothing wrong with any of those 3 points, by granting point 1 you are granting that humans can´t make completely random selections.




he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Look at that. More dishonesty from dandan/leroy, but what else would we expect? I said they were irrelevant.



It is not a lie, I was simply responding to your question.(in red letters) on march 6 you did say (or at least implied) that you find nothing wrong with any of my 3 assertions. Including the assertion that “humans can’t make completely random selections”….

he_who_is_nobody wrote
No. As anyone can see, I said your points were irrelavent. Stop quote-mining.


Read your answer carefully, it seems as if you where saying that there is nothing wrong with any of those 3 points, and you added that these points are irrelevant anyway.
he_who_is_nobody wrote
Perfect. Than you agree that "events with a zero probability happen all the time". We are done here. Thanks for admitting that.

(my disagreement in red letts)

I disagree because I don’t grant that Hack´s selection of “7” was completely random, I don’t grant that every single number had the exact same probability of being chosen, and I already provided a source that shows that some numbers are more likely to be selected than others, what else should I do?


he_who_is_nobody wrote
It is simple dandan/leroy. You have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running. I keep telling you this and you keep running from your burden, while at the same time now admitted that "events with a zero probability happen all the time". It looks like someone is trying to have their cake and eat it too.



Why should I carry the burden of a claim that I am not making? Our only point of disagreement is whether if Hack has the ability to select completely random numbers, and I provided a source that shows that he can’t,
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:14 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3431Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: A math Problem

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Look at that. More dishonesty from dandan/leroy, but what else would we expect? I said they were irrelevant.



It is not a lie, I was simply responding to your question.(in red letters) on march 6 you did say (or at least implied) that you find nothing wrong with any of my 3 assertions. Including the assertion that “humans can’t make completely random selections”….


Right. I see nothing wrong with them, because they are irrelevant. Only a person as dishonest as you can quote-mine me, have me quote exactly what I said back at you again, than turn around and act as if you did not quote-mine. Here it is again so everyone can see that you are in fact quote-mining me:

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
leroy wrote:What problems do you have with these points? What do you find so controversial about them?


Nothing. They are just irrelevant to this problem. Like I said, we are talking about calculating the odds, something you already agreed is zero. That means you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

[emphasis added]


Please stop acting so dishonestly.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote
No. As anyone can see, I said your points were irrelavent. Stop quote-mining.


Read your answer carefully, it seems as if you where saying that there is nothing wrong with any of those 3 points, and you added that these points are irrelevant anyway.


Right, who am I going to believe, the person that has displayed the grossest lack of reading comprehension on this forum (and had to quote-mine my statement) or what I actually read from what I actually wrote. Your citations are irrelevant and thus pointless.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote
Perfect. Than you agree that "events with a zero probability happen all the time". We are done here. Thanks for admitting that.

(my disagreement in red letts)

I disagree because I don’t grant that Hack´s selection of “7” was completely random, I don’t grant that every single number had the exact same probability of being chosen, and I already provided a source that shows that some numbers are more likely to be selected than others, what else should I do?


As I keep saying and you keep running from, you have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running.

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote
It is simple dandan/leroy. You have to either provide a way of calculating the odds by excluding the real numbers or show that the real numbers are not infinite. Anything short of this is just you running. I keep telling you this and you keep running from your burden, while at the same time now admitted that "events with a zero probability happen all the time". It looks like someone is trying to have their cake and eat it too.



Why should I carry the burden of a claim that I am not making? Our only point of disagreement is whether if Hack has the ability to select completely random numbers, and I provided a source that shows that he can’t,


Again, your citation was irrelevant to what we are discussing. Beyond that, whether you realize it or not, that is your burden and you keep running from it. What were the odds when you picked 7312004874512? If you would answer this simple question, instead of running from it, you would already see the flaw in your thinking.
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