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Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Africa

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Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Africa
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Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2959Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Africa

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Wed May 24, 2017 2:38 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 799Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

That's racist!
“..the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” Tolstoy
Wed May 24, 2017 4:29 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3347Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Africa, Say Archaeologists

Kindest regards,

James


Honestly, this could explain the lack of fossils from this time period in Africa.
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Wed May 24, 2017 4:56 pm
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Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

So near Africa, then into Africa, then out of Africa?

Last I recall they have a little jaw and some teeth, nothing more as of yet. I'll hold out for more data.
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Thu May 25, 2017 4:00 am
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3347Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Grumpy Santa wrote:So near Africa, then into Africa, then out of Africa?

Last I recall they have a little jaw and some teeth, nothing more as of yet. I'll hold out for more data.


Ever since the dates for Homo naledi came back so recent and Homo floresiensis appears to be descended from an earlier migration of hominins pre Homo erectus, I think all bets are off from what we thought he knew about early human evolution.
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Fri May 26, 2017 5:07 pm
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AelynUser avatarPosts: 38Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

I'm pretty sure that the evidence for out-of-Africa is strong enough at this point (not just paleontological but genetic as well) that one fossil jawbone isn't enough to overturn it. I'm also curious as to what the actual implications are - is the claim that the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees lived in Europe, but later hominid evolution occurred in Africa? How much of a break from current consensus is this?


This article from New Scientists about the find includes criticism from other paleontologists (I liked the article from Ha'aretz relaying the find uncritically and helpfully mentioning that humanity "apparently began in the Mediterranean Basin, an area that includes Israel"). We'll probably know more as things progress, as this paper seems to be very recent.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... ot-africa/
Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:17 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3347Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Aelyn wrote:I'm pretty sure that the evidence for out-of-Africa is strong enough at this point (not just paleontological but genetic as well) that one fossil jawbone isn't enough to overturn it. I'm also curious as to what the actual implications are - is the claim that the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees lived in Europe, but later hominid evolution occurred in Africa? How much of a break from current consensus is this?


It really has to do with where you want to start with what you are going to call Human, and not just closely related hominin. I mean, the first apes are from Africa, and if we wanted to define that as the "origin of humanity" one can make a case for it. All those lines we draw are arbitrary anyways, and we are the ones that choose where to place them. This also seems to be mixing two different things. Yes, hominin evolution could have started anywhere in the Old World, but when it comes to the Out of Africa Theory, that is based on genetics and anatomically modern humans, and shows that we all share an ancestor that came from Africa.

Beyond that, the only real difference is that our common ancestor with chimpanzees would have lived in the Mediterranean area, than the chimpanzee lineages moved south to where we find it today, and our ancestor spread out into a lot of different environments; including Africa where anatomically modern humans evolved. Honestly, not that different, and since boarders are also arbitrary, this should not surprise us at all that chimpanzees moved with the environment they were suited for.
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Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:18 pm
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Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

You know... this makes you wonder (well me at least) about something... the Mediterranean Sea didn't exist yet. What was that area like at the time, where the sea is now? Maybe a huge, lush valley or some other favorable climate? It could be that we originated in the Mediterranean basin before it flooded, meandering out from there, but the catastrophe of the great flood (see what I did there?) scrubbed those origins stories clean, pushing some ancestors into Africa where they evolved and survived and separating them from any ancestors that may have held on on the northern end...

Just a random thought, please continue. 8-)
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:24 pm
AelynUser avatarPosts: 38Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

This is bizarre, I could have sworn I replied to this... anyway...

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Aelyn wrote:I'm pretty sure that the evidence for out-of-Africa is strong enough at this point (not just paleontological but genetic as well) that one fossil jawbone isn't enough to overturn it. I'm also curious as to what the actual implications are - is the claim that the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees lived in Europe, but later hominid evolution occurred in Africa? How much of a break from current consensus is this?


It really has to do with where you want to start with what you are going to call Human, and not just closely related hominin. I mean, the first apes are from Africa, and if we wanted to define that as the "origin of humanity" one can make a case for it. All those lines we draw are arbitrary anyways, and we are the ones that choose where to place them. This also seems to be mixing two different things. Yes, hominin evolution could have started anywhere in the Old World, but when it comes to the Out of Africa Theory, that is based on genetics and anatomically modern humans, and shows that we all share an ancestor that came from Africa.

Beyond that, the only real difference is that our common ancestor with chimpanzees would have lived in the Mediterranean area, than the chimpanzee lineages moved south to where we find it today, and our ancestor spread out into a lot of different environments; including Africa where anatomically modern humans evolved. Honestly, not that different, and since boarders are also arbitrary, this should not surprise us at all that chimpanzees moved with the environment they were suited for.


Agreed. Having said that the New Scientist quotes one of the critics as saying the author of the paper also claims apes originated in Europe; if they are thought to originate in Africa as you say, then this might be more a case of researchers having an (Eurocentric) axe to grind and less an issue where we need to argue what we mean by the word "human" and such.


Grumpy Santa wrote:You know... this makes you wonder (well me at least) about something... the Mediterranean Sea didn't exist yet. What was that area like at the time, where the sea is now? Maybe a huge, lush valley or some other favorable climate? It could be that we originated in the Mediterranean basin before it flooded, meandering out from there, but the catastrophe of the great flood (see what I did there?) scrubbed those origins stories clean, pushing some ancestors into Africa where they evolved and survived and separating them from any ancestors that may have held on on the northern end...

Just a random thought, please continue. 8-)



I am pretty sure the Mediterranean sea should actually be called the Mediterranean ocean because it has an oceanic floor, and in fact is the result of the stretch of ocean between Africa and Europe getting smaller and smaller as the two plates in question grow closer. In other words I'm pretty certain the Mediterranean basin was never dry. You might be confusing the "great flood" thing with the Black sea.
Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:09 pm
Grumpy SantaPosts: 382Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Aelyn wrote:
Grumpy Santa wrote:You know... this makes you wonder (well me at least) about something... the Mediterranean Sea didn't exist yet. What was that area like at the time, where the sea is now? Maybe a huge, lush valley or some other favorable climate? It could be that we originated in the Mediterranean basin before it flooded, meandering out from there, but the catastrophe of the great flood (see what I did there?) scrubbed those origins stories clean, pushing some ancestors into Africa where they evolved and survived and separating them from any ancestors that may have held on on the northern end...

Just a random thought, please continue. 8-)



I am pretty sure the Mediterranean sea should actually be called the Mediterranean ocean because it has an oceanic floor, and in fact is the result of the stretch of ocean between Africa and Europe getting smaller and smaller as the two plates in question grow closer. In other words I'm pretty certain the Mediterranean basin was never dry. You might be confusing the "great flood" thing with the Black sea.


https://www.livescience.com/10607-colos ... n-sea.html
Scientists don't believe. They conclude based on evidence.
Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:53 pm
AelynUser avatarPosts: 38Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Amazing ! I learned something pretty cool today. Thank you ! :) (clearly should have looked more closely when watching those tectonic plate videos...)
Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:29 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2959Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Greetings,

Just to throw a spanner in the works, as it were ...

Scientists discover the oldest Homo sapiens fossils at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:41 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2959Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Greetings,

Latest news...

Looking for Man's origins in a Bulgarian savannah

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:57 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Hilarious.
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:21 pm
Bango SkankPosts: 180Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Hilarious.


As hilarius as you running away from a debate back in 2015?
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Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:24 am
SparhafocPosts: 1653Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Evolution of Man Began in Eastern Mediterranean, Not Afr

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Hilarious.



Lovely to see you are engaged in this important find.
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Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:53 am
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