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Argument From Free Will

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Argument From Free Will
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thenexttodiePosts: 520Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Argument From Free Will

[quote="Laurens"]

If I was a Christian and I prayed that my boss change their mind about something, and God intervenes to do so, he would have affected someone's free will.[quote]

I don't see how. I mean, it certainly is possible to change someones mind without affecting someones free will. Wouldn't you agree?



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Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:44 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 520Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Argument From Free Will

quote="Laurens"]Did God intend the Jesus die on the cross?[/quote] God didn't intend for man to rebel against him. If this had not happened, Jesus would not have been crucified. So no, I don't think so. At least not a first.

Laurens wrote:If so did Judas have a choice when it came to betraying him? Did Pilate have a choice


Yes. They both had a choice. But doubt it would have made much of a difference. It's not that hard to find someone who will betray you or even execute you. Especially if your a Christian. I'm sure could accomplish both in less than 72 hours.
Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:46 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 520Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Argument From Free Will

I didn't see this post at first but I think I have already answered some of it.

Laurens wrote:
Does your theology not entail that Jesus was sent down in order to die on the cross for our sins?

You seem to be saying that God cannot in any way intervene with our free will. If that is the case do you accept that Pilate had a choice or not? Did God really leave all that up to chance and hope that all the players involved would freely choose the outcome that suited his plan? What would have happened if Pilate had freed Jesus, or the crowd had chosen to execute Barabbas and free Jesus?

You have to understand the number of choices entailed in coming out the right way. It entails that Judas would decide of his own accord to betray Jesus. What if he hadn't? What if the Jewish authorities had decided Jesus had not committed any crime? What if the aforementioned crowd chose to release Jesus rather than Barabbas? What if Pilate had decided to intervene and use his authority to call off his execution?
You forgot that Herod could have also executed Jesus, before Pilate. But he chose not to.

Laurens wrote:Are you really saying that God left that many elements of his universal salvation plan to human free choice?
Yes. Because we are so evil, the events surrounding Christs execution were all the more predictable.
Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:21 pm
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 645Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: Argument From Free Will

thenexttodie wrote:You forgot that Herod could have also executed Jesus, before Pilate. But he chose not to.

Herod didn't have the authority to execute Jesus (or anyone else), that power was reserved for the Romans. Even Bible mentions this in John 18:31.

Yes. They both had a choice. But doubt it would have made much of a difference. It's not that hard to find someone who will betray you or even execute you. Especially if your a Christian. I'm sure could accomplish both in less than 72 hours.

Firstly, Jesus wasn't a christians, his desiples weren't christians, christians came about decades after Jesus. Secondly, are you saying that your omnipotent and omniscient god needs a plan B?

I don't see how. I mean, it certainly is possible to change someones mind without affecting someones free will. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes. But if it's done with direct magical mindcontrol, like in Laurens example, it's a bit hard to see how that is not a violation of the subjects free will.

Bonus question; Can an allknowing and allpowerful god have free will?
Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:39 am
thenexttodiePosts: 520Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Argument From Free Will

Visaki wrote:Herod didn't have the authority to execute Jesus (or anyone else), that power was reserved for the Romans. Even Bible mentions this in John 18:31.


It seems to me very likely he could have had Jesus executed, at least by proxy. Didn't he order John the Baptist to be killed? Didn't his father order the deaths of countless infants?


Yes. They both had a choice. But doubt it would have made much of a difference. It's not that hard to find someone who will betray you or even execute you. Especially if your a Christian. I'm sure could accomplish both in less than 72 hours.

Visaki wrote:Firstly, Jesus wasn't a christians, his desiples weren't christians, christians came about decades after Jesus.


I am a Christian. I was talking about me.

Visaki wrote:Secondly, are you saying that your omnipotent and omniscient god needs a plan B?
Bonus question; Can an allknowing and allpowerful god have free will?


The bible seems to make it clear that God in not omniscient in the most common use of the word.
Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:34 pm
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