Elsewhere on the internet...

The League of Reason has some social media accounts! You can find us on Facebook or on Twitter for some interesting links and things.

Are we free?

Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
 [ 29 posts ] 
Are we free?
Author Message
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Are we free?

I came across an educational image on 4chan, of all places. I think it could provide for interesting discussion. It was a picture of graffiti on some building:

Go to work, send your kids to school
Follow fashion, act normal
Walk on the pavement, watch T.V.
Save for your old age, obey the law
Repeat after me: I am free.
Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:36 pm
WWW
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Are we free?

Freedom isn't about "yes or no", it's about "how much".
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:30 am
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

How so? I cannot see myself agreeing with you...
Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:39 am
WWW
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Are we free?

There will always be something limiting your choice of what to do, true freedom is the equivalent of omnipotence.
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:57 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Are we free?

"Free" is sort of meaningless, isn't it? None of are "free" but who cares? Most of us are at least moderately happy... and worrying about how "free" you are only takes away from that. We're social creatures, which means we have obligations to each other. Talking about freedom as though it is somehow better than living a happy and productive life in a healthy society is a big old problem.

We go to work, so we can pay for things, because nothing is free. We send our kids to school because being educated is BETTER than being ignorant. Yeah, we act normal... because we ARE normal, plus or minus a bit, and only losers act different for the sake of being different. Attacking smart social behavior is stupid enough. Doing it as graffiti just means that you're an idiot and possibly a vandal.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:03 am
OzymandyusUser avatarPosts: 986Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Post Re: Are we free?

I agree with the freedom isn't yes or no, its How much... Clearly if you define freedom as being able to do anything even if we were in a society that had no suggestions or requirements in how you live we would still be faced with physical limitations. Does that mean we aren't free? We are bound by gravity, our freedom is being impinged upon! We should revolt!

As for the quote... In society we choose to give up certain freedoms so that our other freedoms are protected. We give up the freedom to kill people because we don't want to be killed... we give up the freedom from responsibilty to our children because we don't want our parents to abandon us on the streets... we give up the freedom to walk in the middle of the road so we can drive down the street... We save for our old age because we don't want to die in poverty...

Feel 'free' to rebel against watching tv or following fashion or acting normal... I won't care one bit. But if you start walking in the middle of the street, better expect me to run you down.
And in an instant all progress towards the sublime, the great and enduring in man fell away and became a monkey's trick.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:10 am
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

I think it is interesting to think how we are practically trapped and enslaved by the civilization system currently set up.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:15 am
WWW
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Are we free?

irmerk wrote:I think it is interesting to think how we are practically trapped and enslaved by the civilization system currently set up.

There is always a balance between freedom and safety.
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:20 am
OzymandyusUser avatarPosts: 986Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Post Re: Are we free?

irmerk wrote:I think it is interesting to think how we are practically trapped and enslaved by the civilization system currently set up.

Honestly I don't see how this is true. How much are we actually required to do by society? The few things you can be jailed for we give up to be protected from other people that would do those acts. You don't have to have children, watch T.V., buy stuff, participate in anything that is merely convention. You may be shunned to some extent, but you aren't stopped from doing it. Hell, you even CAN kill someone, if you feel you absolutely must prove to yourself that you are free. We are not shackled to a machine that forces us to work by any means - only to the degree that we allow ourselves to be shackled by desiring things, which we can absolutely choose to not desire.
And in an instant all progress towards the sublime, the great and enduring in man fell away and became a monkey's trick.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:25 am
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

GoodKat wrote:There is always a balance between freedom and safety.

True, but still interesting. Also, what you said makes me think of this:
Benjamin Franklin wrote:They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:28 am
WWW
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Are we free?

Benjamin Franklin wrote:They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
[/quote]
So the question is "what is essential liberty?"
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:33 am
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

Ozymandyus wrote:Honestly I don't see how this is true. How much are we actually required to do by society? The few things you can be jailed for we give up to be protected from other people that would do those acts. You don't have to have children, watch T.V., buy stuff, participate in anything that is merely convention. You may be shunned to some extent, but you aren't stopped from doing it. Hell, you even CAN kill someone, if you feel you absolutely must prove to yourself that you are free. We are not shackled to a machine that forces us to work by any means - only to the degree that we allow ourselves to be shackled by desiring things, which we can absolutely choose to not desire.

You have to have money to buy food and or have a residence. To obtain money readily and safely you must have a job. To obtain and keep a job almost definitely requires (At least in America) a automobile which requires more money and or credit. Credit requires you to pay into the credit system and keep reputation thereof up. More money and or credit would require a better job which would require more education. Education requires money which requires credit for loans. Now that all this shit is needed, less time is available and thus more easily accessible food is needed. Now a refrigerator is needed to store the processed foods needed to provide people like you at a large enough scale. I mean, it seems like just normal life to us, but we must keep doing it to survive in the civilization we have built.

It reminds me of Ishmael:
Ishmael wrote:You're captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:35 am
WWW
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

GoodKat wrote:So the question is "what is essential liberty?"

Freedom, I suppose.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:35 am
WWW
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Are we free?

irmerk wrote:Freedom, I suppose.

(sigh)
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:04 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Are we free?

irmerk wrote:I think it is interesting to think how we are practically trapped and enslaved by the civilization system currently set up.

I find it more interesting that it is the very comfort and freedom enabled by civilization that allows you to whine about being "enslaved." Or would you prefer to live on an island by yourself, with no food but what you grow yourself and no tools but those you make yourself? I doubt very much that you would enjoy that sort of freedom.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:07 am
WeirdtopiaPosts: 60Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:05 amLocation: Belleville, Ontario, Canada

Post Re: Are we free?

Freedom is the amount of free will to do an action, a person killing someone is there freedom to do so. etc

For you to submit to a civilization, you must give up freedom to do an action or to prevent an action to happen to a citizen. Example: My freedom of holding a weapon is taken away so that civil order and murders are reduced by a police will protect me if a robber tries to break in my house. i have gain the freedom of not being robbed or murdered, no guarantees but that freedom is given.
So in essence, you never have pure freedom only freedom that is given to you and taken away from you. If i do an action that the freedom of me to do so is not prohibited then i loss freedom to pay for the crimes that went against another person freedom that the government though they were entitled in having or the collective thought of having.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:14 am
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

ImprobableJoe wrote:I find it more interesting that it is the very comfort and freedom enabled by civilization that allows you to whine about being "enslaved." Or would you prefer to live on an island by yourself, with no food but what you grow yourself and no tools but those you make yourself? I doubt very much that you would enjoy that sort of freedom.

In respect to
irmerk wrote:I think it is interesting to think how we are practically trapped and enslaved by the civilization system currently set up.

Your response sadly strongly suggests your inability to read, infer and critically think... I find it interesting that one could describe our civilization as enslavement. I have yet to whine, complain or object. Technology and science being provided by the said civilization does nothing to argue it's lack of enslavement. The false dichotomy of either this civilization model or isolation and inexperience as a kicker seems to top it off...

Again, it is merely interesting that life in this civilization may be portrayed as slavery.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:16 am
WWW
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Are we free?

irmerk wrote:Your response sadly strongly suggests your inability to read, infer and critically think... I find it interesting that one could describe our civilization as enslavement. I have yet to whine, complain or object. Technology and science being provided by the said civilization does nothing to argue it's lack of enslavement. The false dichotomy of either this civilization model or isolation and inexperience as a kicker seems to top it off...

Again, it is merely interesting that life in this civilization may be portrayed as slavery.

It would be an incredibly immature, inaccurate, and illogical portrayal. "One" could describe civilization as a cheese sammich, but "one' would be a bit delusional. But, hey... knock yourself out with that. Go live in a cave, as free as a... bear, I guess.

I certainly don't feel enslaved, at least in part that I understand that I am choosing to make a trade-off. No one is enslaving me at all.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:20 am
OzymandyusUser avatarPosts: 986Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Post Re: Are we free?

irmerk wrote:You have to have money to buy food and or have a residence.
Why do you need a residence? Plenty of people live without one, or you can stay at a shelter. And you can get food for free many many places, or you can gather it for yourself. Even beyond that, you can get very basic food and shelter doing any number of things, you are not forced into a very specific role.

Being in the universe with all of its laws, gravity, entropy, etc etc can be seen as slavery too. I guess its interesting that you can look at the world and see slavery no matter how free we are, but I certainly don't agree that it means we are slaves. If nothing else, at any moment we can choose to free ourselves from all these laws forever by suicide. I wouldn't choose it, but I certainly could.
And in an instant all progress towards the sublime, the great and enduring in man fell away and became a monkey's trick.
Last edited by Ozymandyus on Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:26 am
irmerkUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 amLocation: California, USA Gender: Male

Post Re: Are we free?

ImprobableJoe wrote:It would be an incredibly immature, inaccurate, and illogical portrayal. "One" could describe civilization as a cheese sammich, but "one' would be a bit delusional. But, hey... knock yourself out with that. Go live in a cave, as free as a... bear, I guess.

I certainly don't feel enslaved, at least in part that I understand that I am choosing to make a trade-off. No one is enslaving me at all.


If you do not agree with the fact that you are required by the system to keep getting up everyday to go to work and make money to pay for the gas to do it again, that's fine. Just try not to portray my interest in describing it as such as a desire to live in seclusion as a recluse in nature and a demeaning attitude of it. Remember how I justified portraying it as such? I did. No one can justify civilization is a cheese sandwich because it is not one... I fail to see your logic here.

The whole concept of choosing to make the trade off or be exiled into secluded nature is what is being portrayed as enslavement to the system... So....

Ozymandyus wrote:Why do you need a residence? Plenty of people live without one, or you can stay at a shelter. And you can get food for free many many places, or you can gather it for yourself. Even beyond that, you can get very basic food and shelter doing any number of things, you are not forced into a very specific role.

I guess I am not trying to say we are actually enslaved, I am merely saying it is an interesting thought or concept.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:28 am
WWW
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
 [ 29 posts ] 
Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests