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Peronal Opinion

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Peronal Opinion
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MachineSp1ritUser avatarPosts: 180Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:52 pmLocation: Georgia

Post Peronal Opinion

hello,

Recently i had an argument through net with certain person, about politics. to make this simple it was an argument about political situation in my country, the opinions in society are split in two, first side is formed with radical, generally not very bright (i've met just one) and mostly people who did not reach much in their life. the second camp are the rest, relatively intelligent people.

so we had this argument (well actually there were more than two of us, but we were in the center of it) about politics where we were trying to explain to each-other what really is truth in current situation.

so it goes like this, he makes a statement. though not entirely, i disagree, i explain why, give him arguments. he disagrees as well (of course he does) and ignoring my arguments, he shoots back his own, mostly the same every time. after a while i get bored, and i make a huge post (really big one) describing it all from the beginning to the end, following common sense and logic, trying to stay cool and not tell him that he is stupid, which he proved to be. after that, guess what happened, he gets really emotional and frustrated and says something like this "u know i am tired of this u are ignorant degenerate i dont care what u say and neither does anybody else bla bla bla"

so i have a question, i mean, i want to know opinion of yours, why is it that people believe in what they think, even when they are explained that it is not true? i mean, what the hell is wrong with them, where did they get this idea that they are the center of the universe and know everything about anything. take disbelief in scientifically proven fact of evolution for instance, there are millions of people who dont believe in it. not to get banal, has anyone read anything about this? any philosophic book or something of that kind. i'm thinking of writing about this for my philosophy lecture in two weeks.
Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:26 pm
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

I would honestly think this falls more into the field of psychology. It is possible that evolution selects for those who are able to easily convince themselves because it helps one be a natural leader, and thus scores points with the women. It is likely that they simply do not believe the evidence that you provide to them, their skepticism is vastly greater towards ideas that would challenge their current beliefs. I find that thought-experiments work better to convince others because it makes them produce the evidence themselves, and thus puts it on the same level as what they already hold to be true.

See Cognitive Bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:44 pm
OzymandyusUser avatarPosts: 986Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

There are unquestioned beliefs that are the foundations of everyone's thought processes, its just the way our brains arrange themselves. Any evidence against these foundations will need extraordinary evidence to disprove, not simply someone's word on the matter or someone else's interpretation of the facts. Not knowing the specifics of your debate I can't make an informed comment on that - but with creationists and other truly religious people, God is the knowledge that they have built their entire world view on. Their brains use Him as a foundational concept in everything they've learned, and simply detaching yourself from such a foundational belief means relearning everything you know and question every act they've ever made. You aren't going to do such a self-destructive thing without extraordinary evidence and without extraordinary reasons for believing something different (i.e. it will make your life SO much better to believe something else that its worth relearning everything you know).

I assume you came across such a foundational belief in your argument, and it was something that the other person wasn't willing to question. For further reading, Good Kat's wiki article has some good references at the bottom on the subject.
And in an instant all progress towards the sublime, the great and enduring in man fell away and became a monkey's trick.
Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:45 pm
MachineSp1ritUser avatarPosts: 180Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:52 pmLocation: Georgia

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

thank you both, very interesting posts as well as the wiki link. they've answered so many questions, u can't imagine.
and yes i have encountered such belief, this phrase describes it better

...biases they identified are at least partially the result of problem-solving using mental short-cuts or "heuristics", for instance using how readily or vividly something comes to mind as an indication of how often or how recently it was encountered


the god example is too severe for this case, it really is the fundamental belief for many people, i refer to opinion in general. It is said that arguments lead to the truth, but they often don't.

from what i got from the article, it says that biases are present in every person and they fail to get over them. probably biases prove to be rational in general cases, like identifying that probably a guy in the street with big beard rotten cloth has almost no money, would be true, but on higher levels biases are an obstacle. however if u realize that ur judgment may be this way subjective may help to avoid making wrong decisions.
Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:57 pm
WolfAUPosts: 564Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:56 pmLocation: Australia

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

MachineSp1rit wrote:...first side is formed with radical, generally not very bright... the second camp are the rest, relatively intelligent people.

That sounds very biased. I think you'll find all political stances have their share of idiots.

Also, I think you'll find that alot of debates about political topics are too politically charged to really hope for any kind of dispassionate reasoning and valid outcomes. Too few people are trained in that kind of thinking, too few people are prepared to put their emotions aside too few know the full arguments (and associated evidence) of the greater issues of the topic, and too few have the humility to say "I guess your argument is valid, I will give it further consideration".

MachineSp1rit wrote:...why is it that people believe in what they think, even when they are explained that it is not true?

Well, you can't expect someone to rapidly do a 180 on their beliefs in a single encounter. Usually if you are successful you will cause them to think through and readjust their stance to something more moderate, and over time further encounters will shift it.

There are certainly issues associated with personal identity and being connected with members of a group who believe as such. Because of this accepting the contrary belief would mean re-evaluating themselves (and any related moral beliefs, which we seem to naturally resist) and possibly losing their connection with others. So yeah it doesn't surprise me that people are stubborn in their beliefs, but one can hope that over time societies will improve their standard in how they teach students to apply reason and this will hopefully reduce the 'I'm right and you're a moron' style arguments.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:27 am
MachineSp1ritUser avatarPosts: 180Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:52 pmLocation: Georgia

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

That sounds very biased. I think you'll find all political stances have their share of idiots.


of course they do, but generally it is the way i said it. u see, if u knew the details of the case u would agree straight away. but i dont wanna bore anybody here, there even is a video almost everybody has seen, there was a big demonstration in center of the Capital, and one famous singer (known to be talented and simply a good guy) made a small appeal to the demonstrators, he said "don't u think the that next government won't have same problems, it is us who must change, we must learn respect each-other, consider each-other's opinion..." and he couldn't finish when crowd started to whistle and all that "boo" sounds. BUT no doubt there are some political fanatics on both sides. I've never been fully successful in inner political debates, people get too emotional. plus i don't like to talk about it with anybody, after that case, and several before that.

as for the rest, i agree totally.
Last edited by MachineSp1rit on Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:39 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

Something I was just thinking about, that might fit under this topic, is that for some people politics is all... well, "political." Everything is about supporting the political party, and there's not a whole lot of concern or even interest when it comes to policy issues, and the real world outcomes of those policies. There's a reliance on personal attack to discredit the politicians on the other side, and a tendency to repeat catch phrases and buzz words with little understanding of their meanings.

What lies at the bottom of it seems to be a belief that they are on the "right team," the other "team" is wrong and possibly evil by definition, which means that all of the other guy's ideas are automatically wrong and possibly evil as well. All of the things that their "team" says and does is right and the highest good, also by definition. So, they don't hold their beliefs because there's any validity to them... they see their beliefs as being valid because their political party holds them. And, hey, even if they are very obviously wrong and evil and stupid, that's ok because they are the good guys and whatever they do much be with the best of intentions and will magically have a happy outcome.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:41 pm
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

ImprobableJoe wrote:What lies at the bottom of it seems to be a belief that they are on the "right team," the other "team" is wrong and possibly evil by definition, which means that all of the other guy's ideas are automatically wrong and possibly evil as well. All of the things that their "team" says and does is right and the highest good, also by definition. So, they don't hold their beliefs because there's any validity to them... they see their beliefs as being valid because their political party holds them. And, hey, even if they are very obviously wrong and evil and stupid, that's ok because they are the good guys and whatever they do much be with the best of intentions and will magically have a happy outcome.

Religious, isn't it?

Do we honestly need political parties anymore?
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:29 pm
desertedcitiesUser avatarPosts: 74Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:53 amLocation: wØØt

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

GoodKat wrote:Do we honestly need political parties anymore?


No, I don't think we do. We just need people willing to work together.
Derp.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:39 pm
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GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

desertedcities wrote:No, I don't think we do. We just need people willing to work together.

Why do we even need that? Why can't we just have a structure where elected politicians write up bills and essays on why the bills would be good for society, and all the other politicians vote on it?
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:44 pm
desertedcitiesUser avatarPosts: 74Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:53 amLocation: wØØt

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

I'd like to say, "Because there'll still be politicians."

I'd rather have a nation that's full of people willing to work together for the common good.
Derp.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:50 pm
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MachineSp1ritUser avatarPosts: 180Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:52 pmLocation: Georgia

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

imagine all the people eh?
Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:56 pm
desertedcitiesUser avatarPosts: 74Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:53 amLocation: wØØt

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

Yeah, that's all it is at this point in time. An idealistic piece of imagination.
Derp.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:57 pm
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GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

desertedcities wrote:I'd like to say, "Because there'll still be politicians."

And politicians make a career out of bullshit, that's why you make them write essays to back up their proposed bills, if they tried to fill that with BS they would be called out on it.
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:01 pm
desertedcitiesUser avatarPosts: 74Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:53 amLocation: wØØt

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

They'd have to pass an I.Q. test as well. Just for added insurance (I really do want to see this added to the Constitution).
Derp.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:04 pm
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MachineSp1ritUser avatarPosts: 180Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:52 pmLocation: Georgia

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

and imagine the corruption in those tests.
Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:01 pm
GoodKatUser avatarPosts: 776Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:07 pmLocation: Hell (South Carolina)

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

MachineSp1rit wrote:and imagine the corruption in those tests.

Politics is like a plague that infects everything that it touches.
My discussions are a search for truth, and for that search to be honest, all parties involved must be open to the prospect of being wrong.
What is there to gain in guessing about that which cannot be known?
Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:24 pm
desertedcitiesUser avatarPosts: 74Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:53 amLocation: wØØt

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

That's why the penalty for asshattery in politics should be severe.
Derp.
Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:52 am
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ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

desertedcities wrote:That's why the penalty for asshattery in politics should be severe.

We can't keep those fuckers from committing war crimes and spying on American citizens without warrants... do you think we can make an "asshattery rule" stick?
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:15 am
desertedcitiesUser avatarPosts: 74Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:53 amLocation: wØØt

Post Re: Peronal Opinion

Heh heh, good point. I'd just like to put two in the head of some of these politicians, only then will they be worth their weight.
Derp.
Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:27 am
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