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Post-awakening depression (PAD)

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Post-awakening depression (PAD)
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CosmicJoghurtPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 808Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:59 pm Gender: Pinecone

Post Post-awakening depression (PAD)

Greetings.

I apologize for making such a thread while only having 2 posts of experience here, but I can't help but feel it's necessary.

I've recently come to the conclusion that there is (most likely) not such a thing as objective morality (or perhaps even subjective, but that's off topic). After the initial 5 seconds of feeling proud, a cold depressing pain sensation went through my toes all the way to the tip of my highest hair up on the head. I felt nauseous, afraid. Just depressed.

I realized that, according to myself, it wasn't really wrong to rape children, to bully, to kill, to torture, to raise kids violently and violent, acting against global warming had no moral point, stealing from the poor was morally neutral.

I need something to cheer me up, besides cats and music, because I'm seriously going through a bad stage now.

What are your opinions on this? How did you deal with it? What do I do...

Every time I think about this I feel slightly worse.


Have a good enjoyable week. Cheers...
Perception of reality results in interpretation of reality which results in a deformation of reality.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:21 am
SquawkModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2011Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:25 pm Gender: Tree

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

Look in the mirror. Why do you feel bad about this?

Because you have subjective morality. It's something that I find amazing whenever I think about it. The only one who can determine how you feel about anything is you, and you have the capacity to act based on your morality.
Pope Rat: "Exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

Squawk response: "O Rly?"
Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:23 am
CosmicJoghurtPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 808Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:59 pm Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

Squawk wrote:Look in the mirror. Why do you feel bad about this?

Because you have subjective morality. It's something that I find amazing whenever I think about it. The only one who can determine how you feel about anything is you, and you have the capacity to act based on your morality.



I don't see what you mean. My actions are controlled by constant act-consequence thinking at short/long-term. I feel bad about this because this pretty much means I can do anything I want and not feel bad about it, and this makes me... feel bad.

Before, I "knew" the beauty and rightness of acting against the progression of global warming. Now it is neither right nor wrong, it simply means nothing. There's no moral reason to be nice to people. It's depressing.
Perception of reality results in interpretation of reality which results in a deformation of reality.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:40 am
Anachronous RexLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 2008Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:07 pmLocation: Kansas City, MO Gender: Male

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

I look at morality like I look at health. Sure health doesn't have a rigorous definition, but thats not to say we don't know anything about it.

And, of course, if you decide you need objective morality after all, there's always Kant's Categorical Imperative. No god required.
Our prefrontal lobes are too small. Much too small. That's a problem of the birth canal, I'm very sorry to say for those that like their birth canals... tight.
-C. Hitchens.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:13 am
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

I learned volumes from the simple results of this studythat measured depression in differing levels of loyalty to beliefs. It correlates stronger, confident beliefs of any variety with less depression, and uncertainty more frequently linked to depression. For whatever reason.

I have a huge amount of respect for the uncertainty/questioning stance, but i think I know how rough it can be. But you answer a lot of questions and learn so much, you could say it's worth it. Unless you're like me and never leave it ;)

Not alone.
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:19 am
quantumfireball2099User avatarPosts: 155Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:52 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:
Squawk wrote:Look in the mirror. Why do you feel bad about this?

Because you have subjective morality. It's something that I find amazing whenever I think about it. The only one who can determine how you feel about anything is you, and you have the capacity to act based on your morality.



I don't see what you mean. My actions are controlled by constant act-consequence thinking at short/long-term. I feel bad about this because this pretty much means I can do anything I want and not feel bad about it, and this makes me... feel bad.

Before, I "knew" the beauty and rightness of acting against the progression of global warming. Now it is neither right nor wrong, it simply means nothing. There's no moral reason to be nice to people. It's depressing.


There may be no moral reason to be nice to people, but because we have big brains and Mirror Neurons we are able be empathic towards other people or animals. I treat people with respect and kindness because I want to be treated in the same way.

Think about it this way; If you were anything like me, when you were a Christian (I'm assuming this), you had this 'morality' hung above your head and the reasons you did the 'right' thing was because God said to. Now you can do the right thing and feel pride knowing that you are taking the moral high road just because your a good person.

Also I take into consideration that we are all related, biologically. This helps me realize that all humanity is 'cut from the same cloth'.

These videos, I feel, are very uplifting and spiritual. They help me when I am feeling depressed.



Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:28 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:Greetings.

I apologize for making such a thread while only having 2 posts of experience here, but I can't help but feel it's necessary.

I've recently come to the conclusion that there is (most likely) not such a thing as objective morality (or perhaps even subjective, but that's off topic). After the initial 5 seconds of feeling proud, a cold depressing pain sensation went through my toes all the way to the tip of my highest hair up on the head. I felt nauseous, afraid. Just depressed.

I realized that, according to myself, it wasn't really wrong to rape children, to bully, to kill, to torture, to raise kids violently and violent, acting against global warming had no moral point, stealing from the poor was morally neutral.

I need something to cheer me up, besides cats and music, because I'm seriously going through a bad stage now.

What are your opinions on this? How did you deal with it? What do I do...

Every time I think about this I feel slightly worse.


Have a good enjoyable week. Cheers...


How old are you?

Anyway, in life, if you find no meaning to it, add something that is entirely your own. :)
Unsupport unthink.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:44 pm
Jotto999User avatarPosts: 572Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:18 amLocation: Ontario, Canada Gender: Male

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

The fact that you know you would feel very bad doing those kinds of terrible things means that even though you know morales are subjective, they exist, at least as some function in our brains. Now ask yourself this: Are morales useful? Why even have them?

That should help get around the obstacle of "They do not make objective sense anyway, hurting their credibility and necessity". You know what I think makes a terrific amount of sense? Evolution giving our highly social brains feelings, inhibitions and "morales" so that we don't kill each other, stay close, and help the survival of the species. Still too cold and mechanistic? Perhaps, but I like to think of that kind of thing as tremendously freeing, rather than depressing and slaying all reason to use my morales and feelings.

If you still feel depressed, then sit down on the floor and do as many sit-ups as you can. The endorphins will make you feel better.
With poor mental and physical health, happiness is like smoke that you reach for with bare hands. With great health, happiness is just pouring into your lap all the time.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:08 pm
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3527Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:I don't see what you mean. My actions are controlled by constant act-consequence thinking at short/long-term. I feel bad about this because this pretty much means I can do anything I want and not feel bad about it, and this makes me... feel bad.

Oh then it's a free will issue not a morality one...



intelligentAtheist wrote:Before, I "knew" the beauty and rightness of acting against the progression of global warming. Now it is neither right nor wrong, it simply means nothing. There's no moral reason to be nice to people. It's depressing.

Please define "moral reason".
Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:29 pm
RichardMNixonUser avatarPosts: 1047Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:45 pmLocation: USA Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:I don't see what you mean. My actions are controlled by constant act-consequence thinking at short/long-term. I feel bad about this because this pretty much means I can do anything I want and not feel bad about it, and this makes me... feel bad.

Before, I "knew" the beauty and rightness of acting against the progression of global warming. Now it is neither right nor wrong, it simply means nothing. There's no moral reason to be nice to people. It's depressing.


You're saying there's a difference between being good because of the consequences and being good for goodness' sake? I'm not sure the distinction is necessary. Negative consequences are a perfectly valid reason not to do something. Morality to me is about minimizing suffering and maximizing human well-being. If I kill Bob, Bob's family will be sad. That is one of many undesirable consequences, thus I will not kill Bob.
"When I come to my own beliefs, I find myself quite unable to discern any purpose in the universe, and still more unable to wish to discern one." ~ Bertrand Russell
"If we do not succeed, we run the risk of failure." ~ Dan Quayle
Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:31 pm
CosmicJoghurtPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 808Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:59 pm Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

@quantumfireball2099

There may be no moral reason to be nice to people, but because we have big brains and Mirror Neurons we are able be empathic towards other people or animals. I treat people with respect and kindness because I want to be treated in the same way.


That's exactly what I mean, act-consequence :)

Think about it this way; If you were anything like me, when you were a Christian (I'm assuming this), you had this 'morality' hung above your head and the reasons you did the 'right' thing was because God said to. Now you can do the right thing and feel pride knowing that you are taking the moral high road just because your a good person.

Also I take into consideration that we are all related, biologically. This helps me realize that all humanity is 'cut from the same cloth'.


Oh, I turned atheist with no previous particular beliefs. You know, had never given it a moment of thought, childish ignorance :).
But anyways, I don't see what you mean by taking the "moral highroad" and me being a good person. Do you mean I feel obligated to resort to morality? Well, perhaps sub-consciously, but until I can have more control over that part of my brain, I only "consciously" am not obligated to anything besides reason and rationality.

Also, while I would love that the fact that we are all related would help me, it doesn't. This is a situation where rationality makes me feel sad, because just because we're related doesn't change the way we should act (should there be one). Also, thank you for the videos, I will be sure to check them out :)


@Irkun
How old are you?


The tender age of 13. I know, perhaps too young to deal with this?

Anyway, in life, if you find no meaning to it, add something that is entirely your own.


Thanks, I have something in mind, not to say I'm so depressed that I find no meaning to life (that's quite dramatic).


@Jotto999
The fact that you know you would feel very bad doing those kinds of terrible things means that even though you know morales are subjective, they exist, at least as some function in our brains. Now ask yourself this: Are morales useful? Why even have them?


I don't mean I would feel very bad doing those things (well, I would, but that's the till immature subconscious part of my brain acting), what I mean is that I feel bad for... not feeling consciously and rationally bad if I do those things, that's what's most depressing, I guess.


@borrofburi
Please define "moral reason".


What I mean by that is that I find no moral incentive to be nice to people. In other words, no morality makes me be nice to them just because it's "right" to do so.


@RichardMNixon
You're saying there's a difference between being good because of the consequences and being good for goodness' sake? I'm not sure the distinction is necessary. Negative consequences are a perfectly valid reason not to do something. Morality to me is about minimizing suffering and maximizing human well-being. If I kill Bob, Bob's family will be sad. That is one of many undesirable consequences, thus I will not kill Bob.


I think the distinction is necessary, quite necessary by the way. Also, in the scenario you just proposed, I can only find the reason not to kill Bob if the fact that his family will be sad will result in real bad consequences for me. This is what I think makes me feel bad, the fact that I almost feel I NEED morality, and because I cannot find it, I get depressed.
Let's imagine another scenario:
Let's say Bob has no family, no friends, no relatives, no one knows him but me, and if I kill him it won't be found out that I killed him. Also, I have no kind of relationship with Bob and thus his in-existence will not result in a loss for me. (I know, pretty ugly scenario, but necessary).

In this case, I have no reason not to kill Bob. No bad consequences. Depressing.



Let me just finish this post by stating what I feel is important to note for all that is next.
From my point of view, subjective = pseudo. Thus, subjective morality is pseudo-morality, which means it's irrelevant when rationality and reason are needed.


I'm sorry for the long post, but there is time and hopefully patience.


Cheers
Perception of reality results in interpretation of reality which results in a deformation of reality.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:02 pm
borrofburiModeratorPosts: 3527Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:27 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:
borrofburi wrote:Please define "moral reason".

What I mean by that is that I find no moral incentive to be nice to people. In other words, no morality makes me be nice to them just because it's "right" to do so.

Since you put "right" in quotes I presume that means you understand it's poorly defined... I think someone else already brought it up but in my mind morality is necessarily determined by consequences: the whole concept of "morality" without consequences is somewhat nonsensical.
Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:34 pm
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

borrofburi wrote:
Since you put "right" in quotes I presume that means you understand it's poorly defined... I think someone else already brought it up but in my mind morality is necessarily determined by consequences: the whole concept of "morality" without consequences is somewhat nonsensical.


Yes, exactly. If something forces you to be "right" then it's arguable you or your motivations are "good" anyway. It's more important to understand the problem than to sign on with someone elses' interpretation and repeat their mistakes.

To put it in quotations tends to bring into question the truth of the association and definition of the word you are giving, and showing a kind of irony in the process.
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:47 am
Jotto999User avatarPosts: 572Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:18 amLocation: Ontario, Canada Gender: Male

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:I don't mean I would feel very bad doing those things (well, I would, but that's the till immature subconscious part of my brain acting), what I mean is that I feel bad for... not feeling consciously and rationally bad if I do those things, that's what's most depressing, I guess.

Let me get this clearly: reason and logic not making you feel bad about terrible things is the depressing bit?

Now this may be going out on a bit of a limb, but I'm not convinced that your conclusion caused your depression. It seems to me that it was the other way around. What do you think about that? Is there a chance of that?
With poor mental and physical health, happiness is like smoke that you reach for with bare hands. With great health, happiness is just pouring into your lap all the time.
Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:14 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

Keep an open mind and if you're bored be curious about something, provided that something is legal. ^^
Unsupport unthink.
Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:08 pm
CosmicJoghurtPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 808Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:59 pm Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

Jotto999 wrote:
intelligentAtheist wrote:I don't mean I would feel very bad doing those things (well, I would, but that's the till immature subconscious part of my brain acting), what I mean is that I feel bad for... not feeling consciously and rationally bad if I do those things, that's what's most depressing, I guess.

Let me get this clearly: reason and logic not making you feel bad about terrible things is the depressing bit?

Now this may be going out on a bit of a limb, but I'm not convinced that your conclusion caused your depression. It seems to me that it was the other way around. What do you think about that? Is there a chance of that?



I don't see what you mean. Would you care to explain? Sorry for the inconvenience by the way...
Perception of reality results in interpretation of reality which results in a deformation of reality.
Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:15 pm
quantumfireball2099User avatarPosts: 155Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:52 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

intelligentAtheist wrote:Let's say Bob has no family, no friends, no relatives, no one knows him but me, and if I kill him it won't be found out that I killed him. Also, I have no kind of relationship with Bob and thus his in-existence will not result in a loss for me. (I know, pretty ugly scenario, but necessary).

In this case, I have no reason not to kill Bob. No bad consequences. Depressing.


Why do you phrase it like this? I would say that you have no reason TO kill Bob. Unless your stuck with him on an island and are fighting for supplies or something, I can't imagine why there would be a reason to kill anyone. Isn't knowing that they are going to cease to exist enough of a reason to not kill him? Why not find out more about Bob, ask him what happened to his family and why he does not have any friends? Maybe you could be his friend and help him enjoy life?

If you want to be completely logical, it would be a waste of time and energy TO kill him, right?
Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:39 pm
CosmicJoghurtPodcasterUser avatarPosts: 808Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:59 pm Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

quantumfireball2099 wrote:
intelligentAtheist wrote:Let's say Bob has no family, no friends, no relatives, no one knows him but me, and if I kill him it won't be found out that I killed him. Also, I have no kind of relationship with Bob and thus his in-existence will not result in a loss for me. (I know, pretty ugly scenario, but necessary).

In this case, I have no reason not to kill Bob. No bad consequences. Depressing.


Why do you phrase it like this? I would say that you have no reason TO kill Bob. Unless your stuck with him on an island and are fighting for supplies or something, I can't imagine why there would be a reason to kill anyone. Isn't knowing that they are going to cease to exist enough of a reason to not kill him? Why not find out more about Bob, ask him what happened to his family and why he does not have any friends? Maybe you could be his friend and help him enjoy life?

If you want to be completely logical, it would be a waste of time and energy TO kill him, right?



Of course you're right, I didn't mean to say i HAD a reason to kill Bob, but rather that there was no reason (moral or act-consequence) NOT to kill him. i hope I made this clear now.

After all, who knows? He might be a nice guy. Now let me get back to topic xD
Perception of reality results in interpretation of reality which results in a deformation of reality.
Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:23 pm
Jotto999User avatarPosts: 572Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:18 amLocation: Ontario, Canada Gender: Male

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

Is it possible you started being depressed before you came to your conclusion, making an otherwise not that depressing conclusion seem depressing?
With poor mental and physical health, happiness is like smoke that you reach for with bare hands. With great health, happiness is just pouring into your lap all the time.
Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:27 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: Post-awakening depression (PAD)

In case of doubt, seek professional help, for depression is sometimes considered a sickness. :P
Unsupport unthink.
Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:46 pm
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