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A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they ...

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A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they ...
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MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 550Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they ...

A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they act as if "god" is not real.

An hyperbole title but considering the observation I wish to point out and the explanation I seek, its both quite apropos and highlighting.

We all know that theism is not guarantee of moral actions (judging by religions of prison population, the astounding support of evangelicals for torture and the death penalty, etc.) despite the claims of a number of theists that their religion/god is the only correct or even possible system of morality. So it is unsurprising to see a number of theists break the "morality" of their religion/god.

What is astounding however is when they do it right as they're attempting to convince you that their religion is right / god is real.

Some of us must have had this experience before: you have engaged with a theist in a argument when the theist does something that goes completely against the religion/god they're trying to convince you is real, such as:
- Lying, from the misquote to the blatant
- Insult, from the veiled to the open
- Other conducts that would normally be frowned upon within their belief system (such as trying to pit someone against another and trying to seed discord, discussing in bad faith, etc.).

You would think that theists would keep their eyes on the ball when trying to make their argument but I've had numerous experiences of theists acting as if there would be no conesequences for violating their religion/god's moral commands.

In other words:
Acting as if god they claim to believe in does not exist.

I have no doubt they sincerely believe as they claim to but how can they reconcile this?
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" - A public information message from the League of Reason's christians
Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:05 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2520Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

MarsCydonia wrote:[b]
[...]
I have no doubt they sincerely believe as they claim to but how can they reconcile this?



My bet is on cognitive dissonance. Emotionally, they're already vested, and so they probably feel as if they can do and say whatever they want, because they "know" (see: feel) they're right.

This observation is actually one I made that helped me move away from faith when I was younger.
I thought that, if these people were supposedly "filled with God" (or however it was phrased), then their behavior should be... godly somehow? But no, far from it. It was primarily just used to justify their own behavior and personality traits.
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:57 am
VisakiUser avatarPosts: 677Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:26 pmLocation: Helsinki, Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

What tops the list for me is: Acting as if their puny god doesn't have the power to punish me himself if he wanted to. Islamists are the go-to example of these kinds of people at the moment.

Oh, and "Jesus take the wheel" or "Insallah" mentality. Ever wonder why these people wear seat belts or have insurances? After all, they have god who'll make sure that things happen as he wants them to happen. I know the explanation for this is that god wants them to insurances and wear seat belts but that sounds like a weak sauce excuse for me.
Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:01 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 2799Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

Greetings,

I think that, at least with Christians, there's also their own interpretation of a critical point as to how they get to heaven that's in effect here.

There are three interpretations on this point:

1) Faith alone;
2) Faith and "good works";
3) "Good works" alone.

Where the first holds sway - particularly in America, and/or Calvinism for example - you'll likely find these glaring discrepancies.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:51 pm
leroyPosts: 1083Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

MarsCydonia wrote:A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they act as if "god" is not real.

An hyperbole title but considering the observation I wish to point out and the explanation I seek, its both quite apropos and highlighting.

We all know that theism is not guarantee of moral actions (judging by religions of prison population, the astounding support of evangelicals for torture and the death penalty, etc.) despite the claims of a number of theists that their religion/god is the only correct or even possible system of morality. So it is unsurprising to see a number of theists break the "morality" of their religion/god.

What is astounding however is when they do it right as they're attempting to convince you that their religion is right / god is real.

Some of us must have had this experience before: you have engaged with a theist in a argument when the theist does something that goes completely against the religion/god they're trying to convince you is real, such as:
- Lying, from the misquote to the blatant
- Insult, from the veiled to the open
- Other conducts that would normally be frowned upon within their belief system (such as trying to pit someone against another and trying to seed discord, discussing in bad faith, etc.).

You would think that theists would keep their eyes on the ball when trying to make their argument but I've had numerous experiences of theists acting as if there would be no conesequences for violating their religion/god's moral commands.

In other words:
Acting as if god they claim to believe in does not exist.

I have no doubt they sincerely believe as they claim to but how can they reconcile this?



Granted, I cant speak for all Christians, but yes, we usually forget that God exist, and we constantly act as if God doesn't exist.


you see we don't need a 54 conversation for this, both Christians and Atheist act (at least sometimes) as if their world view where wrong, and we can call them all blunders. For example you don't believe in human choice, but you constantly call people dishonest, liars, stupid, etc. as if they had and other option.


but to be fair, this is not evidence against the existence of God,
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:37 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 550Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

leroy wrote:Granted, I cant speak for all Christians, but yes, we usually forget that God exist, and we constantly act as if God doesn't exist.

you see we don't need a 54 conversation for this, both Christians and Atheist act (at least sometimes) as if their world view where wrong, and we can call them all blunders. For example you don't believe in human choice, but you constantly call people dishonest, liars, stupid, etc. as if they had and other option.

but to be fair, this is not evidence against the existence of God,

:facepalm:

Its as if you purposefully tried to highlight my point Leroy. I should thank you for your help but as I wrote, most of us had experiences with people like you.

The question was why it doesn't dawn on such people.
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" - A public information message from the League of Reason's christians
Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:29 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

MarsCydonia wrote:You would think that theists would keep their eyes on the ball when trying to make their argument but I've had numerous experiences of theists acting as if there would be no conesequences for violating their religion/god's moral commands.


"Well, sins will be forgiven / God is merciful." was the defence i got when i talked about this with two differend christians i knew personally. I have seen similar answers many time in the internets too.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:04 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 550Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

Gnug215 wrote:My bet is on cognitive dissonance. Emotionally, they're already vested, and so they probably feel as if they can do and say whatever they want, because they "know" (see: feel) they're right.

This observation is actually one I made that helped me move away from faith when I was younger.
I thought that, if these people were supposedly "filled with God" (or however it was phrased), then their behavior should be... godly somehow? But no, far from it. It was primarily just used to justify their own behavior and personality traits.

It may be cognitive dissonance but what I'm astounded by is this level of cognitive dissonance.

For exemple, one I think is more obvious: It's one thing to live day to day life thinking "I will be perfectly happy in heaven" while "My family members will be suffering eternally in hell" because these thoughts do not usually occur at the same time, they're not challenges to one another if they're kept separate.

Hence the difference with theists arguing for the existence of god with actions that appear to reject that's god existence. They occur at the same time but I think maybe that the thought simply does not occur to them.

What remains surprising then is theists continuing with this conduct after it's been pointed out to them but Bango Skank may have touched on the answer: theists convince themselves that their actions will be forgiven in the grand scheme of things.
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" - A public information message from the League of Reason's christians
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:19 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

MarsCydonia wrote:A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they act as if "god" is not real.

An hyperbole title but considering the observation I wish to point out and the explanation I seek, its both quite apropos and highlighting.

We all know that theism is not guarantee of moral actions (judging by religions of prison population, the astounding support of evangelicals for torture and the death penalty, etc.) despite the claims of a number of theists that their religion/god is the only correct or even possible system of morality. So it is unsurprising to see a number of theists break the "morality" of their religion/god.

What is astounding however is when they do it right as they're attempting to convince you that their religion is right / god is real.

Some of us must have had this experience before: you have engaged with a theist in a argument when the theist does something that goes completely against the religion/god they're trying to convince you is real, such as:
- Lying, from the misquote to the blatant
- Insult, from the veiled to the open
- Other conducts that would normally be frowned upon within their belief system (such as trying to pit someone against another and trying to seed discord, discussing in bad faith, etc.).

You would think that theists would keep their eyes on the ball when trying to make their argument but I've had numerous experiences of theists acting as if there would be no conesequences for violating their religion/god's moral commands.

In other words:
Acting as if god they claim to believe in does not exist.

I have no doubt they sincerely believe as they claim to but how can they reconcile this?


Many Christians today will also affirm homosexuality and the slaughter of unborn babies.
Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:49 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

Visaki wrote:What tops the list for me is: Acting as if their puny god doesn't have the power to punish me himself if he wanted to. Islamists are the go-to example of these kinds of people at the moment.

Oh, and "Jesus take the wheel" or "Insallah" mentality. Ever wonder why these people wear seat belts or have insurances? After all, they have god who'll make sure that things happen as he wants them to happen. I know the explanation for this is that god wants them to insurances and wear seat belts but that sounds like a weak sauce excuse for me.


Great point!

Do you think it could have a negative effect if God were constantly doing miracles for people?
Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:07 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:Many Christians today will also affirm homosexuality and the slaughter of unborn babies.


Is that bad? Would you rather see homosexuals executed, like me (Im a bisexual)?

On abortion, why should they fight against it? Bible allows abortion and there is even instruction how to perform it in there.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:29 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:Great point!

Do you think it could have a negative effect if God were constantly doing miracles for people?


If id get a dollar everytime you say "Great point"....

Not really, but they wouldnt be called miracles then. But this is rather moot point, because according to at least some christians, God is doing miracles constantly already.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:32 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 550Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:Many Christians today will also affirm homosexuality and the slaughter of unborn babies.

Ok, so you like to prove the point.

The question was how do you explain it?
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" - A public information message from the League of Reason's christians
Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:58 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

sorry I didn't see above posts
Mon May 22, 2017 3:05 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:Many Christians today will also affirm homosexuality and the slaughter of unborn babies.


Bango Skank wrote:Is that bad? Would you rather see homosexuals executed, like me (Im a bisexual)? .


Yes it's bad. No I would not like to see you executed because you are a homosexual. You should first be given a second chance to stop putting certain things in your mouth or putting your you know what you know where. That what I think anyway. I don't see how we can justify enforcing laws retroactively.

Bango Skank wrote:On abortion, why should they fight against it? Bible allows abortion and there is even instruction how to perform it in there.


I think your talking about Numbers 5 11-31.

I know people used to argue that the Hebrew word "Yarek" should have been translated as "fetus" or "womb"instead of "thigh". Something like that. Doesn't seem to be true unless men also had a "yarek" back in those days.

Is this what you were talking about?

I can give you a real example of God killing unborn babies in the Bible, if you like.
Mon May 22, 2017 4:00 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

Bango Skank wrote:
Not really, but they wouldnt be called miracles then. But this is rather moot point, because according to at least some christians, God is doing miracles constantly already.


Well, just because other Christians think I am wrong doesn't mean I'm wrong. And yes in the Bible every time God did a miracle it generally caused people to hate God and rebel against him all the more and bitch and complain.
Mon May 22, 2017 4:14 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:Many Christians today will also affirm homosexuality and the slaughter of unborn babies.

MarsCydonia wrote:Ok, so you like to prove the point.

The question was how do you explain it?


Well first of all, they constantly have other people telling them it's ok.

As far as your point about the number of Christians in prison. It could be that Atheists are less likely to goto in prison than Christians are, but I seriously doubt we have an accurate method of quantifying this. I have been in prison twice in the US and one thing I can tell you is that prison is full of people can tell you 100 lies in minute.
Mon May 22, 2017 4:43 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:Yes it's bad. No I would not like to see you executed because you are a homosexual. You should first be given a second chance to stop putting certain things in your mouth or putting your you know what you know where. That what I think anyway. I don't see how we can justify enforcing laws retroactively.


"You should first be given a second chance..." By whom? and before doing what to me? Sounds like a veiled threat to me.

Btw, straight people have anal sex too. Why you assume i give blowjobs (i dont)?


thenexttodie wrote:I think your talking about Numbers 5 11-31.

I know people used to argue that the Hebrew word "Yarek" should have been translated as "fetus" or "womb"instead of "thigh". Something like that. Doesn't seem to be true unless men also had a "yarek" back in those days.


Fetus or womb is considered a part of woman, not independed, thats why its called thigh in ancient judaism. Reading in contex is clear what is meant in those passages, thats why its translated to fetus or womb for easier understanding to todays people.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Mon May 22, 2017 5:08 pm
thenexttodiePosts: 607Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

Bango Skank wrote: Why you assume i give blowjobs (i dont)?
I see, you prefer having anal sex with other men instead. You realize that this is not what your mother and father wanted you to do, right?


thenexttodie wrote:I think your talking about Numbers 5 11-31.

I know people used to argue that the Hebrew word "Yarek" should have been translated as "fetus" or "womb"instead of "thigh". Something like that. Doesn't seem to be true unless men also had a "yarek" back in those days.


Bango Skank wrote:Fetus or womb is considered a part of woman, not independed, thats why its called thigh in ancient judaism. Reading in contex is clear what is meant in those passages, thats why its translated to fetus or womb for easier understanding to todays people.
Right, that was the argument. Thank you for reminding me.

The Hebrew word for thigh is used many times in the old testament and is never in the context of anything that has to do with a fetus or a womb. It is used in a few places to describe Jacobs offspring as being from his loins or thighs

It seems to me what we have in Numbers is talking about a ceremony in which a wife who was suspected of adultery was given something to drink and if she was indeed guilty of adultery she would never be able to have offspring as punishment. And this would have been a severe punishment during these times.

Other things I would like to point out;

1 There is no known abortifacient that only kills the unborn children of women who have cheated on their husbands.

2 Numbers 5 never says anything about the woman being pregnant.

Lastly God has the authority to kill everyone. Unborn children, men, women, pregnant women, children, all of us. In fact he did kill everyone once before (well, almost everyone.)
Mon May 22, 2017 7:01 pm
Bango SkankUser avatarPosts: 127Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:15 amLocation: Finland Gender: Male

Post Re: A blunder that theists make all the time... Or how they

thenexttodie wrote:I see, you prefer having anal sex with other men instead.


Maybe.... Actually i'm more into cuddling.

thenexttodie wrote:You realize that this is not what your mother and father wanted you to do, right?


Ahaha, what's with you christians and your mind reading attempts?

On serious note, i dont give a fuck what they might think if I find someone who i love and want to spend my life with. I'm living my own life, not theirs. But nice shaming and mind reading attempt from you.

BTW, i want you to anwers my questions regarding your "You should first be given a second chance...". Dont run away.


thenexttodie wrote:Right, that was the argument. Thank you for reminding me.


You are welcome.

thenexttodie wrote:The Hebrew word for thigh is used many times in the old testament and is never in the context of anything that has to do with a fetus or a womb.


Except in Numbers at least. Btw, this is not something i made myself up. This was an ancient jewish thought. Outside from the bible there is at least one ancient rabbinic commentary about this, but i cant remember where it was atm.

thenexttodie wrote:It is used in a few places to describe Jacobs offspring as being from his loins or thighs


Yes, figure of speech.

thenexttodie wrote:It seems to me what we have in Numbers is talking about a ceremony in which a wife who was suspected of adultery was given something to drink and if she was indeed guilty of adultery she would never be able to have offspring as punishment. And this would have been a severe punishment during these times.


Yeah...and why she wouldnt have offspring if you read about the progress after drinking of that magic potion....? What happens to the thighs (which fetus/womb are part)?

thenexttodie wrote:Other things I would like to point out;

1 There is no known abortifacient that only kills the unborn children of women who have cheated on their husbands.


Oh please, we are talking about bible so anything is possible there.

thenexttodie wrote:2 Numbers 5 never says anything about the woman being pregnant.


Nor does it deny it. It's irrelevant anyway, because the end result is same after drinking that stuff.

thenexttodie wrote:Lastly God has the authority to kill everyone. Unborn children, men, women, pregnant women, children, all of us. In fact he did kill everyone once before (well, almost everyone.)


Yes, but irrelevant for now.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield, and those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced, but one is less unwise."
Mon May 22, 2017 9:03 pm
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