Elsewhere on the internet...

The League of Reason has some social media accounts! You can find us on Facebook or on Twitter for some interesting links and things.

Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 26
 [ 502 posts ] 
Slavery in the bible discussion thread
Author Message
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Slavery in the bible discussion thread

This thread is to identify the exact problem of slavery.

The bible allowed for slavery. This is a fact. Is the problem the violence associated with Slavery? The ownership of a fellow human?

Let's discuss.
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

One of the first things that comes to my mind is how slavery is defined today as to how it was defined in time past.

So please bring a definition of slavery so we can start with the same fact.
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:51 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Yes indeed. It was the Bible and their Christian beliefs which were at the basis for the pro-slavery supporters' position, so it is at least interesting to get a window into the minds of people who lived in a different age.


Owning another human being relegates them to objects. Humans either have intrinsic value or they don't. Does Christianity propose that humans have no intrinsic value? From my own knowledge of Christianity, I would say that is not the current format of belief practiced by any Christian group in the world.

Owning another human being means a system is in place where you too could be owned. Do unto others, and you set the precedent to do unto you - would you like to be a slave? Would you like your wife or children, your mother or father to be enslaved?. Didn't Jesus have something to say about doing unto others?

Other individuals have the same right to freedom as you do. Any argument you make in support of your own freedom is an argument in support of theirs. Or does Christianity propose that humans don't have rights or freedoms?

Slavery caused endless suffering, beatings, rapes, murders and impoverished generations of people because of the colour of their skin, the content of their beliefs, or the fact that they were from that village over there which we beat up. Does Christianity support rape, murder, and physical violence?

Slavery is an aspect of our species' early juvenile morality where we lacked compassion for those outside our group. Slavery is an effect of racism, hatred, and xenophobia. Is Christianity in support of racism, hatred, and xenophobia?


Of course, as is the nature of religious 'holy texts', other people can read what they want into the words too.

As such, those opposing slavery would cite Luke 16:13, and writers of the day would argue against slavery from Christian or religious positions.

For example, Granville Sharp:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004891 ... w=fulltext
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:52 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:One of the first things that comes to my mind is how slavery is defined today as to how it was defined in time past.


Which is irrelevant because by slavery we are talking about owning a human being, owning the output of their labours, and society having a distinct set of laws appropriate solely to the subset of humans termed 'slaves'.


Bernhard.visscher wrote:So please bring a definition of slavery so we can start with the same fact.


No. Your proposition - you perform the defining and see if others accept it.

Funny how in your own thread, created with your own volition, you feel the need to immediately try wriggling around in semantics.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:54 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:This thread is to identify the exact problem of slavery.

The bible allowed for slavery. This is a fact. Is the problem the violence associated with Slavery? The ownership of a fellow human?

Let's discuss.

It's both. It is morally reprehensible for a human being to own another as property, particularly in the case of biblical slavery which explicitly allows the beating to death of a slave as long as it happens over the course of at least a few days.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:05 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1170Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:One of the first things that comes to my mind is how slavery is defined today as to how it was defined in time past.

So please bring a definition of slavery so we can start with the same fact.

Slavery: the owning of another human being as if they were property. In the same way that a smartphone or a bicycle is property.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:07 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

So ownership...

The problem you are immediately getting into is comparing all ownership to Ill treating your property.

That is not the case.

One can own something and take very good care of it.

So I disagree with simply arguing ownership equals mistreatment.
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:14 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparhafoc wrote:by slavery we are talking about owning a human being, owning the output of their labours, and society having a distinct set of laws appropriate solely to the subset of humans termed 'slaves'.

Rumraket wrote:Slavery: the owning of another human being as if they were property. In the same way that a smartphone or a bicycle is property.

These have been definitions of slavery today as they were in the past.

I am baffled at how christians think that the definition of slavery somehow changed. Is slavery supposed to have meant something different then? Or something different now?


Is anyone suprised that this returning trollish christian would also be a slavery-apologist? No one? I thought so.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:15 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:So ownership...

The problem you are immediately getting into is comparing all ownership to Ill treating your property.

That is not the case.

One can own something and take very good care of it.

So I disagree with simply arguing ownership equals mistreatment.

No one argued that ownership equals mistreatment. Read again troll:
MarsCydonia wrote:
Sparhafoc wrote:by slavery we are talking about owning a human being, owning the output of their labours, and society having a distinct set of laws appropriate solely to the subset of humans termed 'slaves'.

Rumraket wrote:Slavery: the owning of another human being as if they were property. In the same way that a smartphone or a bicycle is property.

You're a slavery apologist so come out and say it:
"Owning people as property is ok"
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:18 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:So ownership...

The problem you are immediately getting into is comparing all ownership to Ill treating your property.


And yet ABSOLUTELY NO ONE DID THIS.

Only you.

How amusing.

No chap - read what's written.

It's not the treatment of slaves which makes slavery vile - it's OWNING other humans.

You WILL process what is written, and you WILL NOT make up other peoples' positions for them.

I will take you to task each time you try this bullshit.


Bernhard.visscher wrote:One can own something and take very good care of it.

So I disagree with simply arguing ownership equals mistreatment.


Great - you debunked your strawman, now about OWNING ANOTHER HUMAN.

How would you feel if your wife was the owned property of someone else? How about your mother? Your children?

Try and employ the empathy you believe god granted you.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:53 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard - here are the questions you need to answer in order to fulfill your part of any discussion possible here:



Does Christianity propose that humans have no intrinsic value?

Didn't Jesus have something to say about doing unto others?

Is Christianity's position that humans don't have rights or freedoms?

Does Christianity support rape, murder, and physical violence?

Does Christianity expound racism, hatred, and xenophobia?


If you answer no to these, then you've demolished your own contention of using Christianity to justify being pro-slavery.

If you say yes... oh go on, please say YES. Given your usual incompetence, I bet you'd think yes is the safest position here.

Have you linked this thread to your Facebook profile yet? You should. Think about it! If your argumentation is correct, then all your Christian friends and family will be amazed by your perspicacity, and you'll receive the adulation for your ideas you're clearly so desperate to net.

Of course, if you realize that you're just playing the troll because there's no consequences to your action, it would explain why you'd be too gutless to stake your personal reputation on such vile beliefs.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:56 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

I do own my common law wife.... and she owns me.

How do I feel about that? No issue

I don't have my own children. If I wasn't able to provide for them and a good man took them (adoption) ... I would again have no issue.
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:05 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Again the implication of ownership is mistreatment. Owning in this context is simply you have authority over somebody.

Like the boss has authority over his employer. Does the boss own the employee? When at work.. yes.
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:07 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

The bible states one who kidnaps a human is to be put to death.

Rape ... punishable by death.

So when you define slavery in terms of kidnap, rape, and other unjustified violence... the bible condemns such slavery
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:13 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparahoc .. no , Yes, No, No, no
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:15 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 827Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:I do own my common law wife.... and she owns me.

How do I feel about that? No issue

I don't know which country you live in but I am convinced that you don't and that she doesn't.
Certainly not in the legal sense of slavery.

Christians often try this false equivalence. Why don't you try "Sports team owner own their players" too?

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Again the implication of ownership is mistreatment. Owning in this context is simply you have authority over somebody.

Like the boss has authority over his employer. Does the boss own the employee? When at work.. yes.

The false equivalence again. My employer does not own me.

Nor is the implication of ownership mistreatment, you shot yourself in the foot there sparky. If the implication of ownwership is mistreatment and employers own employees, then the implication would be that employers can mistreat employees as the Israelites were permitted to treat their slaves. They can't. We have laws against that.

I really wish christian slavery apologist would try better. Is trying to pass slaves as employees really the best they can do?
Why are they afraid to admit that they have no issue with slavery?

Bernhard.visscher wrote:The bible states one who kidnaps a human is to be put to death.

Rape ... punishable by death.

So when you define slavery in terms of kidnap, rape, and other unjustified violence... the bible condemns such slavery

Christians should really read their bible. Its just sad when they don't.
1. Kidnapping isn't the same thing as slavery and the kidnapping that is punishable by death is the kidnapping of hebrews
2. Rape isn't punishable by death. Rape of betrothed virgins is punishable by death. The unbetrothed virgins however? The rapist had to pay the father and then marry his victim.
3. We've defined slavery as it always been defined and as it is defined in the bible:
Owning another person as property.
The bible doesn't condemn slavery, it condones it.

Lie better.
"Slavery is morally ok" -
"I don't know how the burden of proof works in the mind of atheists but I don't have to prove my claims" -
Public information messages from the League of Reason's christians
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:34 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:I do own my common law wife.... and she owns me.


Did you move back to that failed third world state again in between this and your post acknowledging that killing babies is not legal?


Bernhard.visscher wrote:How do I feel about that? No issue


And the question was: how do you feel about someone else OWNING her.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

Now think about people owning your mother or sister

Still sleeping well?

If so, seek medical help.


Bernhard.visscher wrote:I don't have my own children. If I wasn't able to provide for them and a good man took them (adoption) ... I would again have no issue.


ADOPTION does not grant OWNERSHIP Bernie.

OWNERSHIP... right? You understand what OWNERSHIP means, right?

OWNERSHIP is not equivalent to being married, nor is it possessed by a parent. In none of these cases is OWNING relevant. Do you wish to seriously dispute this? How do you propose? By the laws of your nation, or by what Bernie makes up as he goes along?

Either you know you are equivocating in the most specious, sniveling way imaginable, or you are truly mystified.

Are you on prescription medication that suggests a side-effect could affect your behavior?

I am struggling to see what else could be happening here, but whatever it is - it's no more Christian than what I left in the toilet bowl earlier.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:38 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Bernhard.visscher wrote:Like the boss has authority over his employer. Does the boss own the employee? When at work.. yes.


Authority =/= ownership

The only 'boss' who owns his employee is a slaver, and it's not employment; it's slavery.
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:40 pm
SparhafocPosts: 1334Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

Sparhafoc wrote:Bernhard - here are the questions you need to answer in order to fulfill your part of any discussion possible here:



Does Christianity propose that humans have no intrinsic value?

Didn't Jesus have something to say about doing unto others?

Is Christianity's position that humans don't have rights or freedoms?

Does Christianity support rape, murder, and physical violence?

Does Christianity expound racism, hatred, and xenophobia?
Beliefs are, by definition, things we don't know to be true.
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:41 pm
Bernhard.visscherPosts: 1099Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:15 am

Post Re: Slavery in the bible discussion thread

I already answered sparahoc... no yes no no no
Atheism will never posses the knowledge God does not exist. Bernhard visscher
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:54 pm
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 26
 [ 502 posts ] 
Return to Religion & Irreligion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests