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Arguments for God's Existence

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Arguments for God's Existence
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Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2677Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

leroy wrote:I already provided a definition 3 times
The efficient cause is what did that. If a ball broke a window, then the ball is the efficient cause of the window breaking. Every change is caused by an efficient cause. If your eye sees, then it sees because light from the object strikes your eyes and causes you to see what is there. Efficient causes answer the what did that question, but do not answer how it was done.


That is not a definition its a tautology. Since you failed to make things clear, I'm just going to provide an interpretation of your "definition" for you, based on the highlight in bold:
In the statement "A causes B" the efficient cause is "A".
Well... wasn't that helpful?
Why is it then that you don't say that the broken window caused the ball?
Why is it that you don't say that anything causes everything else?
What is it exactly that you mean by "the ball caused the broken window"?
And what exactly do you mean by efficient cause without a material cause? In case you haven't notice, an "A" must exist. Do you suppose that there could be such a thing as an imaterial A that exists and it can cause things? Or do you suppose that an non-existent A (that exists) causes B? How is this not absurd to you?

leroy wrote:If we assume that the glass was broken in the exact moment where the hammer touched the glass, then the cause and the effect would be simultaneous.
...

It is utterly frustrating having a conversation with you. I just demonstrated mathematically the absurd implications of your statement, and you completely ignored it. You failed to address any of it, you just forgot about them, moved along, forgot that they existed, and continued to spew the same miss-informed nonsense.
If you take a snapshot of the universe at any given state, the glass is either broken or it isn't. If it isn't then the point is moot as the glass is not broken. If single snapshot of the Universe (a state) comes into existence and you see that the glass is broken and the hammer is pressing against the shards, you don't have an hammer breaking the window as much as you have a broken window and a hammer pressing against the shards. It wouldn't make any more sense to say that the hammer caused the broken window as to say that the broken window caused the hammer.
It is also impossible according to the laws of physics as no information can travel faster than the speed of light, so no effect can propagate outside the light cone and the glass is not the hammer. For the glass to break, the once coherent glass molecules must move relative to one another and cover a distance sufficient enough to break the bonds, and this process is not instantaneous, since you need:
1. A moment where the hammer is moving towards the glass with an X amount of kinetic energy
2. A moment where the kinetic energy of the hammer is transferred unevenly onto the glass. i.e. Where the glass has the kinetic energy and the hammer doesn't.
3. A moment where the previously stationary glass molecules start to accelerate away from each other at unequal magnitudes.
4. A moment where the glass molecules acquire a non-zero speed.
5. A moment where atomic bounds are sufficiently far enough from their previous neighbor in order to break.

Lets take Kants example, about the heat and a fire. Heat does not propagate instantaneously, the heat you may feel right now does not come from fire that exists right now, but from fire past which is now gone that released the heat. If the universe had just came into existence and you were to find that you instantly fell the heat and there is a fire ranging, the heat was not caused by the fire, but rather the heat and the fire just exist independent from one another.
Take any example you can possibly think of, and you will find out that the case is always the same every time.

There is no such thing has effects that are simultaneous to its cause, such a thing is incoherent! It just sounds like something that might be sensible, to humans that don't understand what is going on, but it utterly falls apart at any type of close scrutiny.

leroy wrote:You are presenting a false dilemma,

Its not a false dilema, its an important point in the relation of causation that you are simply not getting.

leroy wrote:the glass was not broken before the hammer touched the glass.

Bingo!

leroy wrote:I agree that this is a controversial point and that there is peer reviewed literature on both sides, but if our alternatives are.
1 Accept simultaneous causation as possible
2 Accept that the universe came in to existence “a causally”

I would go for the first, since the second is demonstrably incoherent while the first has never been proven to be incoherent.

Number 1 is the incoherent one. While number 2 must necessarily be the case, despite your objections.
"I have an irrefutable argument for the existence of...." NO, STOP! You are already wrong!
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:16 pm
psikhrangkurPosts: 6Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:30 pm Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

Master_Ghost_Knight wrote:It is utterly frustrating having a conversation with you. I just demonstrated mathematically the absurd implications of your statement, and you completely ignored it. You failed to address any of it, you just forgot about them, moved along, forgot that they existed, and continued to spew the same miss-informed nonsense.
If you take a snapshot of the universe at any given state, the glass is either broken or it isn't. If it isn't then the point is moot as the glass is not broken. If single snapshot of the Universe (a state) comes into existence and you see that the glass is broken and the hammer is pressing against the shards, you don't have an hammer breaking the window as much as you have a broken window and a hammer pressing against the shards. It wouldn't make any more sense to say that the hammer caused the broken window as to say that the broken window caused the hammer.
It is also impossible according to the laws of physics as no information can travel faster than the speed of light, so no effect can propagate outside the light cone and the glass is not the hammer. For the glass to break, the once coherent glass molecules must move relative to one another and cover a distance sufficient enough to break the bonds, and this process is not instantaneous, since you need:
1. A moment where the hammer is moving towards the glass with an X amount of kinetic energy
2. A moment where the kinetic energy of the hammer is transferred unevenly onto the glass. i.e. Where the glass has the kinetic energy and the hammer doesn't.
3. A moment where the previously stationary glass molecules start to accelerate away from each other at unequal magnitudes.
4. A moment where the glass molecules acquire a non-zero speed.
5. A moment where atomic bounds are sufficiently far enough from their previous neighbor in order to break.

Lets take Kants example, about the heat and a fire. Heat does not propagate instantaneously, the heat you may feel right now does not come from fire that exists right now, but from fire past which is now gone that released the heat. If the universe had just came into existence and you were to find that you instantly fell the heat and there is a fire ranging, the heat was not caused by the fire, but rather the heat and the fire just exist independent from one another.
Take any example you can possibly think of, and you will find out that the case is always the same every time.

There is no such thing has effects that are simultaneous to its cause, such a thing is incoherent! It just sounds like something that might be sensible, to humans that don't understand what is going on, but it utterly falls apart at any type of close scrutiny.


I think at this point, leroy is clinging less to the line that he quoted and more to something Kant said later on where he suggested that the cause must necessarily be occurring when the effect begins, and that we know this because the cause couldn't have actually been the cause if it ceased to be before the effect began.

Whether or not Kant was asserting this, accepting this, or simply stating it as part of the counter claim that he was setting up at the time, I'm not sure. It should be in the quote provided earlier.

Out of curiosity, though, would you be willing to accept that the cause comes first, but is still occurring as the effect occurs? For example, that the fire is started before heat is produced, and that it's still burning as the heat is being produced?
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:59 pm
leroyPosts: 2014Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

MarsCydonia wrote:It is simple. What you find hard is understanding simple and direct answers when they have more than 1 word.


Because “long” and ambiguous answers leave the door open to move from one position to an other.
When I ask something like:
leroy wrote:Do you affirm that efficient causes necessarily imply material causes? Just kidding I know that I won’t get a direct answer from you.

You wont answer with a simple YES or a simple NO because a YES would require a burden proof and a NO would imply contradicting your atheist friends. This is why you rather keep your position unclear and ambiguous.

MarsCydonia wrote:Case in point:
Why is your answer NO? Aren't you just asserting NO out of your personal incredulity?


Well you didn’t asked me to justify my answer, you simply made a yes or no question. A bachelor by definition is someone that is not married, therefore the idea of a married bachelor is incoherent.


MarsCydonia wrote:Again Leroy, your own words: With "universe" I mean al space time and everything in it.

So you don't have even have to reformulate premiss 1 with the supporting arguments you regurgitate from Craig, you could only reformulate premiss 2 with what you "mean".

Maybe something will dawn on you but I doubt it will.



So if you grant the premises and the conclusion of the KCA and you add an additional (independent) argument I would argue that you can conclude that the cause of the universe is immaterial, space less, timeless etc. and it would imply Creation Exnihilo

So in other words, yes I do think that the conclusion of the KCA entails creation exnehilo but not on the basis of the KCA itself but on the basis of an additional argument that may or may not be correct.

Is it really that hard to understand?



For example you don’t conclude “Darwinian evolution” on the basis of transitional fossils by themselves, ( Lamarckism would also predicts transitional fossils) you conclude Darwinian evlution on the basis of transitional fossils + additional (independent) arguments that would exclude Lamarkism as a viable possibility.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:05 pm
MarsCydoniaUser avatarPosts: 873Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

leroy wrote:Because “long” and ambiguous answers leave the door open to move from one position to an other.

But I was talking about short and simple answers... Which you've yet again failed to understand.

If we can count on something, it's your consistency Leroy.

leroy wrote:When I ask something like:
leroy wrote:Do you affirm that efficient causes necessarily imply material causes? Just kidding I know that I won’t get a direct answer from you.

You wont answer with a simple YES or a simple NO because a YES would require a burden proof and a NO would imply contradicting your atheist friends. This is why you rather keep your position unclear and ambiguous.

It isn't just "long and ambiguous answers" that leave the door open to move from one position to another. Dishonest questions and assertions too. For exemple, (Leroy's ever-changing definition of choice/freedom/will/free will/libertarian free will/etc. and Leroy's definition of transcendent that means the opposite of transcendent come to mind.

But what you yet again fail to understand is this short and simple thing:
Perhaps your question cannot be answered with a simple yes or no.

Your question has been answered by others multiple times and each time you have failed to understand it. And note, only you have failed to understand their answer. Why is that?

You're comitted to a script which makes you refuse to acknowledge very simple facts and concepts. Let's see another exemple:

leroy wrote:Well you didn’t asked me to justify my answer, you simply made a yes or no question. A bachelor by definition is someone that is not married, therefore the idea of a married bachelor is incoherent.

And you went exactly where I wanted you wanted you to go, even though I gave you a chance not to. I did write "Think about your comments on the previous page before you answer Leroy. Maybe something will dawn on you but I doubt it will.", didn't I?

So why would I? Didn't you assert there that Master_Ghost_Knight was making an "argument" based on his personal incredulity? Why, yes you did:
leroy wrote:So far he is making an “argument” based on his personal incredulity,
I don't know what an efficient cause without a material cause is. There is no example of such a thing anywhere else in the Universe. You won't be able to give me an example.
So you have zero basis to make any inferences about efficient causes. To me the concept isn't even inteligeable. Sure you can say words, like a married bachelor, but the concept is devoided of meaning.

So why is it not personal incredulity when it's Leroy while it is with Master_Ghost_Knight? Did you miss that Master_Ghost_Knight specifically mentionned "married bachelor"?

Is there any explanation other than Leroy's dishonest double standards and/or his failure to understand the concept?

leroy wrote:
MarsCydonia wrote:Again Leroy, your own words: With "universe" I mean al space time and everything in it.

So you don't have even have to reformulate premiss 1 with the supporting arguments you regurgitate from Craig, you could only reformulate premiss 2 with what you "mean".

Maybe something will dawn on you but I doubt it will.


So if you grant the premises and the conclusion of the KCA and you add an additional (independent) argument I would argue that you can conclude that the cause of the universe is immaterial, space less, timeless etc. and it would imply Creation Exnihilo

So in other words, yes I do think that the conclusion of the KCA entails creation exnehilo but not on the basis of the KCA itself but on the basis of an additional argument that may or may not be correct.

Is it really that hard to understand?

So I suggested a very simple exercise to Leroy and again, complete failure from Leroy in understanding it. I'll do it for Leroy then, so here's the Kalam cosmological argument clarified with what Leroy means:
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause
2. Space, time and everything else within (the whole of materia) began to exists
3. Therefore the whole of materia has a cause.

Let's take a look again at premiss 2 and include what Leroy says it does not imply:
- The beginning of materia does not imply it began to exist ex nihilo
- The other option is that "the whole of materia began to exist ex materia (from previous materia)".

:lol:

But that completely incoherent concept is easily fixable by clarifying where the mistake is: either the Universe isn't "the whole of materia" or the universe began ex nihilo.

It isn't what the KCA implies Leroy, it's what you imply with your definition of the universe. It really is simple Leroy, I explained the concept to my 12 year old niece and she understood it:
If you define the universe to mean the whole of materia then it couldn't begin to exist ex materia.
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Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:38 pm
leroyPosts: 2014Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

psikhrangkur wrote:
Master_Ghost_Knight wrote:It is utterly frustrating having a conversation with you. I just demonstrated mathematically the absurd implications of your statement, and you completely ignored it. You failed to address any of it, you just forgot about them, moved along, forgot that they existed, and continued to spew the same miss-informed nonsense.
If you take a snapshot of the universe at any given state, the glass is either broken or it isn't. If it isn't then the point is moot as the glass is not broken. If single snapshot of the Universe (a state) comes into existence and you see that the glass is broken and the hammer is pressing against the shards, you don't have an hammer breaking the window as much as you have a broken window and a hammer pressing against the shards. It wouldn't make any more sense to say that the hammer caused the broken window as to say that the broken window caused the hammer.
It is also impossible according to the laws of physics as no information can travel faster than the speed of light, so no effect can propagate outside the light cone and the glass is not the hammer. For the glass to break, the once coherent glass molecules must move relative to one another and cover a distance sufficient enough to break the bonds, and this process is not instantaneous, since you need:
1. A moment where the hammer is moving towards the glass with an X amount of kinetic energy
2. A moment where the kinetic energy of the hammer is transferred unevenly onto the glass. i.e. Where the glass has the kinetic energy and the hammer doesn't.
3. A moment where the previously stationary glass molecules start to accelerate away from each other at unequal magnitudes.
4. A moment where the glass molecules acquire a non-zero speed.
5. A moment where atomic bounds are sufficiently far enough from their previous neighbor in order to break.

Lets take Kants example, about the heat and a fire. Heat does not propagate instantaneously, the heat you may feel right now does not come from fire that exists right now, but from fire past which is now gone that released the heat. If the universe had just came into existence and you were to find that you instantly fell the heat and there is a fire ranging, the heat was not caused by the fire, but rather the heat and the fire just exist independent from one another.
Take any example you can possibly think of, and you will find out that the case is always the same every time.

There is no such thing has effects that are simultaneous to its cause, such a thing is incoherent! It just sounds like something that might be sensible, to humans that don't understand what is going on, but it utterly falls apart at any type of close scrutiny.


I think at this point, leroy is clinging less to the line that he quoted and more to something Kant said later on where he suggested that the cause must necessarily be occurring when the effect begins, and that we know this because the cause couldn't have actually been the cause if it ceased to be before the effect began.

Whether or not Kant was asserting this, accepting this, or simply stating it as part of the counter claim that he was setting up at the time, I'm not sure. It should be in the quote provided earlier.

Out of curiosity, though, would you be willing to accept that the cause comes first, but is still occurring as the effect occurs? For example, that the fire is started before heat is produced, and that it's still burning as the heat is being produced?



The point that I am defending is that causes and effects can be simultaneous; I am not saying that it is always the case.

Sometimes the cause comes first, sometimes the cause comes first and overlaps with the effect, sometimes they both come in to existence simultaneously.

For example when you cut an spherical object made out of wood, in 2 halves (cause) you get two semicircles (or 2 hemispheres ) made out of wood (effect)

In this case both the cause and the effect are simultaneous. The 2 hemispheres began to exist at the same moment in which you finished cutting the sphere.
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:02 pm
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3017Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

Greetings,

No, leroy, the cause is the knife doing the cutting - thus it clearly comes chronologically before the two hemispheres' existence.

This is the point being made to you - and the one Kant made in his treatise.

Kindest regards,

James
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"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:39 pm
leroyPosts: 2014Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

Dragan Glas wrote:Greetings,

No, leroy, the cause is the knife doing the cutting - thus it clearly comes chronologically before the two hemispheres' existence.

This is the point being made to you - and the one Kant made in his treatise.

Kindest regards,

James


sure, but the Hemispheres come in to existence in the same moment in which you end up cutting the spherical object.

Not to mention that you are suppose to be on my side, your are suppose to believe (or atleast you consider the possibility) that the universe might be eternal.

This means that you believe in causes that took place an infinite amount of years ago, where the effect would also have to occur an infinite amount of years ago. under your view, both the cause and the effect took place at the same time.

If simultaneous cause and effect where incoherent so would the idea of “infinite past” and the idea of an actual infinite
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Last edited by leroy on Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:43 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1238Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

If causes can be simultaneous with their effects, then an entity can in principle self-create.

It begins to exist simultaneously with it creating itself, thus it doesn't have to exist before it creates itself, hence there is no contradiction.

Bill Craig's Kalam-argument rests on philosophical principles that undermines the very conclusion he seeks. Rather ironic in my opinion. :lol:
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:57 pm
leroyPosts: 2014Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:30 pm

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

Rumraket wrote:If causes can be simultaneous with their effects, then an entity can in principle self-create.

It begins to exist simultaneously with it creating itself, thus it doesn't have to exist before it creates itself, hence there is no contradiction.

Bill Craig's Kalam-argument rests on philosophical principles that undermines the very conclusion he seeks. Rather ironic in my opinion. :lol:



Care to elaborate an argument? (provide premises and conclusions)

How do you go from “simultaneous causation is possible” to therefore “something can create itself?”
"events with a zero probability happen all the time"
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:33 pm
RumraketUser avatarPosts: 1238Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:49 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

leroy wrote:
Rumraket wrote:If causes can be simultaneous with their effects, then an entity can in principle self-create.

It begins to exist simultaneously with it creating itself, thus it doesn't have to exist before it creates itself, hence there is no contradiction.

Bill Craig's Kalam-argument rests on philosophical principles that undermines the very conclusion he seeks. Rather ironic in my opinion. :lol:



Care to elaborate an argument? (provide premises and conclusions)

How do you go from “simultaneous causation is possible” to therefore “something can create itself?”

I would not claim that follows necessarily. Rather it has traditionally been argued by some philosophers that something creating itself from nothing is impossible, because something (whatever it is) would have to first exist before creating itself. The idea is that causes are always chronologically prior to their effects. So if something were to cause itself to exist, that would imply it had to exist before it caused itself to exist (because the cause must be prior to the effect), which would imply a contradiction.

But obviously for self-creation to follow by necessity, it would have to be the case that some entity has the property of being able to create itself.

In some models of inflationary cosmology, the universe can spawn daughter universes. As in, in these cosmologies the laws of physics of our universe predicts that it will cause new universes to exist. So it's a multiverse model. So basically the universe has the ability to create universes. In so far as the laws of physics exist, and they do if the universe exists, then the laws of physics will create more universes.

If the cause (the laws of physics) can be simultaneous with the effect (the coming into existence of a universe), then the universe can in principle create itself, because the laws of physics in these inflationary cosmologies can create universes.

The same is true for some quantum physical formulations of spacetime. In these models, the inherent uncertainty in quantum mechanics implies that spacetime itself can fluctuate in and out of existence. So the universe has these laws which imply there is a mechanism by which spacetime can come into existence. Since both the uncertainty principle and spacetime is a property of the universe, it has the properties necessary to be able to create itself: the uncertainty principle applied to spacetime.

I'm not giving these arguments because I believe that's how the universe came to be, (because I don't believe the universe began to exist at all). I'm only putting them out there to show that if you accept a dubious philosophical principle, lots of strange shit you didn't take into account becomes much more difficult to argue against. If you open to door to causes being simultaneous with their effects you provide an opening for certain models of physics to make the self-creation of the universe possible.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:08 pm
Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2677Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

leroy wrote:sometimes they both come in to existence simultaneously.

No!
The state of a subspace at time T is not determined by the state in another subspace at time T, but it is determined by the state space at T-1.


leroy wrote:For example when you cut an spherical object made out of wood, in 2 halves (cause) you get two semicircles (or 2 hemispheres ) made out of wood (effect)
In this case both the cause and the effect are simultaneous. The 2 hemispheres began to exist at the same moment in which you finished cutting the sphere.

No! That is an illusion caused by the limited perception of humans.
To cut a piece of wood you need a saw, the saw essentially just kick out atoms from a thin strip of the wood such that they are no longer connected. When the last atom bond is broken is when the 2 halves become the 2 halves. The moment prior to the bond breaking the atom is still bonded, the bond is broken in the next instant because the atom moved to a new position far enough for the bond to be considered broken, the atom moved to this new position because the atom on the instant before was in a previous position and add a relative speed in a given direction. The previous position + the relative speed in the previous state is what determined the current position of the atom. I.e. the state at time T (now) is determined at time T-1. This happens long after the saw has made contact with the last atom, the current state of the saw has nothing to do with it.
This is not a debatable position, this is determined by the laws of physics, no information travels faster than the speed of light and the position of the saw is not the position of the last atom. This is a principle in physics not ironically named "Causality"

Even worse, even if you could have some made up physics in which information was not limited by the speed of light, there is currently no model at which dispar sub-states of the same state space have any effect on each other, if such a model were to exist, it would have to be so phenomenally aberrant that you would have to throw away things like the non-preferential principle of the Universe in a way that is impossible to consolidate with any definitive state, and you could forget about any ability to distinguish any causation anyway. Shit, it is even possible to define coherent models of retro-causality (i.e. states in the past are caused by future states), but never simultaneous.

The fact that cause and effect can not be simultaneous is not an open argument still up for debate. This is an open and shut case. It does not exist. There is no logic that could make sense of it when scrutinized.
"I have an irrefutable argument for the existence of...." NO, STOP! You are already wrong!
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:00 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3430Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Arguments for God's Existence

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:
According to how English works. We already know that words can have more than one meaning, hence why equivocation can happen in the first place.

Sure, but the word “creation” is not even used in the KCA, therefore equivocation can’t happen.


Is the phrase "things that begin to exist" not synonymous with "creation"?

leroy wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Beyond that, of course no apologist would care to be accurate when formulating it. If they cared to be accurate, they would not use it in the first place.


The guy who makes the argument is the guy who decides how the argument should be formulated.
Any alteration of the original formulation is by definition a straw man.


Thus, according to you, correcting logical errors in an argument is a straw man? Good to know.

I define "Christian" as one who molests children.
Dandan/Leroy freely admits that he is a Christian.
Thus, dandan/leroy is a pedophile.

leroy wrote:the KCA does not say anything about the type of causation,


Yes it does. Anyone that understands English can see that. That is also why the Apologists have to hide it.
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